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Metagame Champions OU Metagame Discussion

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Reg M-C just dropped so obviously these are very early thoughts, but this is roughly where I see the initial radar to be:

:salamence-mega: - QB

:lucario-mega-z: - QB

:baxcalibur-mega: - QB

:sneasler: - suspect

:samurott-hisui: - suspect

:baxcalibur: - suspect(?)

The first three are fairly self-explanatory to me. :salamence-mega: has already shown historically time and time again what happens when you give a mon that combination of bulk, Speed, Dragon Dance, and Aerilate-boosted STAB, and I don't really see a reason to make the tier sit through that again...

:lucario-mega-z: having 164 Special Attack and 151 Speed already seems absurd for this power level, but Aura Guard makes revenge killing it even more infuriatingl by halving damage from contact moves. A lot of the tier's common priority, such as Mach Punch, Aqua Jet, Sucker Punch, and Extreme Speed, is contact-based, so these moves become much less reliable as emergency counterplay (not to mention it already resists half these moves), this puts far more pressure on teams to keep a Choice Scarf user or something naturally faster than it healthy just to revenge kill it, which does not seem particularly reasonable for something this immediately threatening!!

:Baxcalibur-Mega: taking an already extremely threatening mon and giving it 175 Attack alongside crazy bulk is also kinda twisted. The bulk is just as concerning as the raw power here, because it gives Mega Baxcalibur far more opportunities to find a Dragon Dance against attacks that would force most offensive setup sweepers out. Once it gets that turn, you are dealing with a Pokemon that is both extremely difficult to revenge kill and strong enough to overwhelm a huge portion of the tier after very little prior damage

:Sneasler: was manageable before, but :Rillaboom: and the addition of :Grassy Seed: fundamentally change how easily it can enable Unburden. Before this regulation, Unburden Sneasler was generally relying on :White Herb: to activate after CC or :Focus Sash:; now Rillaboom can simply put Grassy Terrain up, Sneasler comes in, doubles its Speed, and gets a Defense boost at the same time. Grassy Terrain also weakens Earthquake, which makes trying to revenge kill it with EQ difficult (:Hippowdon: could probably work here though) +2 Sneasler already does around 77-91% to physically defensive :Corviknight: with CC, so "just keep Corviknight healthy" becomes a much worse answer when Corviknight is also one of the Pokemon constantly being asked to deal with Rillaboom and half the physical metagame

:Samurott-Hisui: should have been looked at a while ago... Ceaseless Edge is just an incredibly obnoxious move, there are no :Heavy-Duty Boots:, so every Spike matters, and unlike a conventional hazard setter Samurott does not have to give up momentum to put them down. It clicks a Sharpness-boosted STAB attack and gets the Spike at the same time. M-C does give us some new counterplay here. :Rocky Helmet: is a meaningful addition because Ceaseless Edge makes contact, and :Cinderace: having Court Change gives teams another way of punishing excessive hazard stacking I guess... I still don't think either of those things fixes the underlying interaction. Even if I successfully remove the Spike, Samurott already damaged something while setting it and can just repeat the sequence later. Between :Choice Scarf:, :Black Glasses:, Swords Dance, Flip Turn, Encore, and its coverage, it is also not as if there is one Samurott set you can comfortably account for in the builder

:baxcalibur: is the one here I am less certain about actually banning, which is exactly why I want a suspect. Kinda echoing on the mega here but this mon has an extremely stupid combination of high attack, very good bulk, Dragon Dance, strong Ice / Dragon STAB, priority in Ice Shard, and Thermal Exchange making it completely immune to burn, I just don't like how matchup-dependent its defensive counterplay is

Generally speaking, I think this new regulation is pushing the tier even further in a direction it was already heading. Champions OU already feels extremely favorable to offense and hyper offense, and adding mons this strong with so many setup options only puts even more pressure on defensive answers
 
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4G3NT CROISSANT said:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9championsou-2677962169 First game with Pod, we're in for it

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9championsou-2677967514-ooqo8fiqvqvycovjwy83efsvsiflsyhpw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9championsou-2677969840-g176mcubq4dp0lftwefcyluvuvdmynqpw
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And the fact Pod has Aqua Jet as a 3rd coverage/priority for fire types like :rotom-heat: RHeat. Yeah this thing will definitely increase the tankchop and bu/idef bird sets for sureee :bellipog:
 
skype said:
Reg M-C just dropped so obviously these are very early thoughts, but this is roughly where I see the initial radar to be:

:salamence-mega: - QB

:lucario-mega-z: - QB

:baxcalibur-mega: - QB

:sneasler: - suspect

:samurott-hisui: - suspect

:baxcalibur: - suspect(?)
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yeah, I'm pretty much landing on the same opinions. The tier is currently unplayable given the stupidly broken stuff in here, so going further than QBing the most obvious brokens is difficult given how they warp everything around them, and we'll need to act fast given the sheer amount of bannable stuff that is in front of us...

I 100% agree on the 3 first QB.

After that, I hope we can take action on Hamurott. I defended it during M-B knowing it was a temporary meta, but even I will admit that it has overstayed its welcome. Banning Hamurott also means less Spikes, which in turn means less pressure applied to our defensive backbones, making it slightly easier to handle the rest of the offense guys. We'll take a look at the terrain abusers after that...
 
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fluff!! said:
yeah, I'm pretty much landing on the same opinions. The tier is currently unplayable given the stupidly broken stuff in here, so going further than QBing the most obvious brokens is difficult given how they warp everything around them, and we'll need to act fast given the sheer amount of bannable stuff that is in front of us...

I 100% agree on the 3 first QB.

After that, I hope we can take action on Hamurott. I defended it during M-B knowing it was a temporary meta, but even I will admit that it has overstayed its welcome. Banning Hamurott also means less Spikes, which in turn means less pressure applied to our defensive backbones, making it slightly easier to handle the rest of the offense guys. We'll take a look at the terrain abusers after that...
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I can't agree on Mega-Lucario-Z , when it's highest power stab move is focus blast and steel beam which aren't exactly reliable, still could be broken but I'm genuinely thinking it might be underwhelming. It looks broken on paper, but the high power moves on the special side aren't reliable really. Aura sphere and flash cannon are serviceable, but not exactly killing machines especially without an offensive ability. Also steel stab isn't exactly crazy either. I'm really not sold on luca z and I kinda feel like it might be a disappointment. 164 special attack only goes so far if you don't have spammable high power stab to back it up.

Mega-Absol-Z I'm personally more concerned about but we will see in practice, because after an sd, what exactly switches into sharpness shadow claw + cc + sucker/night slash? I cannot think of much that wants to if anything. Yes it's frail and yes it can lose to mlop but bringing anything in on absol z sounds like a nightmare especially with hazards up, not to mention we have psychic terrain now to block opposing priority if that's an issue. I don't think it's an immediate issue considering :mega-baxcalibur: and :mega-salamence; are here but I could see it being a huge issue later.

Also hearing some murmurs about mega golisopod being broken and while the calcs are insane I gotta see it in practice, as I cannot say anything on it myself

I think also maybe ghold can be freed since cinderace is a real answer to the hazard issue that made ghold far more manageable back in SV. This tier has needed cinderace for a while and I'm glad we have it since cinder is real removal that does not lose to gholdengo
 
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In My Opinion Mega-Salamance, Lucario-Z, Mega-Bax, Sneasler and Hamurott Need to be Quickbanned, Meanwhile Raichu Y, Blaziken, and Baxcalibur Needing a Suspect Test.

Mega Mence, Mega Bax and Lucario Z are Oblivous Why they Need to Go.

Sneasler is the Same Reason Like in Pokemon SV OU: No Revenge Kill Opinions and Hard To Check it Defensivly Because No Lando-T and Gliscor is Still Poison Orb Less.

Hamurott is with the New Hyper Offensive Tools in the Megas, Sneasler and Bax to Strong as a Hazard Setter and Ceaseless Egde is a Stupid Move.

Raichu Y has Atleast with Rilla a Good Offensive Check for Now and even Before it is not that Broken, But Still a Pokemon that Destroy/Cripples Most Offense Teams/Defensive Structures with Zap Canon and in My Opinion One of the More Unhealthy Pokemon in the Tier.

Blaziken can be too Opressive with Rillaboom, but is with Rocky Helmet more Manageble then before and Normal Salamence Can Maybe be a Niche Option to Check it.

Baxcalibur has no Loaded Dice or Boots, but is Still One of the Strongest Offensive Forces to Prepare in the Builder.

Edit: I Hope The Problems get Fixed Very Soon because it Just Boring to Fight 70% Against (Hyper) Offensive.
 
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:dragalge-mega: :corviknight: :samurott-hisui: :rillaboom: :hippowdon: :corviknight:
https://pokepast.es/23180b9a95f7fc4a

After trying out M-C I managed to hit #1 primarily with a team that probably seems pretty familiar, that being my sample team but with Blaziken replaced with Rillaboom along with a faster and stronger Mega Dragalge to deal with Corviknight. My goal by using this team was to see if this metagame can truly be handled with the tried and true core of Corviknight, Mega Dragalge and Hippowdon and my results were certainly mixed.

Immediately, Mega Lucario Z and Mega Salamence stick out to me— two Pokémon whose STAB attacks are mostly impossible to switch into with Mega Salamence packing a Fire Blast stronger than even Garchomp's to break past Corviknight with a small amount of investment.

Baxcalibur along with its Mega also seem problematic with barely any switchins and the capacity to muscle through even Corviknight with Icicle Crash flinches, almost forcing Iron Defense + Body Press. Wait why don't people just run that instead? Why run Brave Bird?

After being considered bannable in M-A to an average option in M-B and at best on par with Blaziken, Sneasler returns with a vengeance paired with Indeedee or Rillaboom equipped with the Psychic Seed or Grassy Seed respectively. Not only does this allow Unburden to activate more easily but also gives it a boost to its bulk making it all the more difficult to check allowing for interactions like Corviknight's Brave Bird not killing a +1 Defense Sneasler and inviting a Swords Dance. Beyond physically defensive Galarian Slowking, (something you could almost never run on a more defensive team unless you want to lose to the potent special attackers of the tier) Corviknight and Ghost-types on a good day this Pokémon finds itself being extraordinarily difficult to check especially with that natural pairing with Psychic Terrain making it immune to priority to punish it for using Close Combat.

:indeedee: :alakazam-mega: :sneasler: :ceruledge: :hatterene: :maushold:
https://pokepast.es/2fbc61efd79dbf58

I was able to experience using it first hand with this team, built after seeing Lax suspect that Mega Alakazam is now bannable with Indeedee in the tier paired alongside Sneasler as a fellow Psychic Terrain abuser. Currently I think Mega Alakazam is fine though the moveset of Nasty Plot, Expanding Force, Focus Blast/Dazzling Gleam, Substitute is a hard ask to switch into. Though, I believe the offensive metagame right now can handle it.

As for bans I agree with Skype's post of:

:salamence-mega: - QB

:lucario-mega-z: - QB

:baxcalibur-mega: - QB

:sneasler: - Suspect

:samurott-hisui: - Suspect

:baxcalibur: - Suspect

However, I also believe that Mega Raichu Y is just as good as ever and should be at least suspected.

It isn't all doom and gloom though for the tier as I enjoy the item additions. Stuff like Rocky Helmet Corv/Chomp, Air Balloon on Excadrill, Red Card on Glimmora and Eject Button on Hatterene are greatly appreciated items which spice up the tier— Rocky Helmet in particular helps against a lot of the powerful physical threats in the tier and eases difficulty building with Item Clause.

Rillaboom is also great, a net positive for the tier. It has strong priority, Grassy Terrain is nice for bulkier teams and has great breaking power with Swords Dance Life Orb sets balanced by being consistently walled by Corviknight.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9championsou-2678100274-eyg3a5173lfnu2d11mjmn4dmcui05umpw
 
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BolTingBlazie said:
I can't agree on Mega-Lucario-Z , when it's highest power stab move is focus blast and steel beam which aren't exactly reliable, still could be broken but I'm genuinely thinking it might be underwhelming. It looks broken on paper, but the high power moves on the special side aren't reliable really. Aura sphere and flash cannon are serviceable, but not exactly killing machines especially without an offensive ability. Also steel stab isn't exactly crazy either. I'm really not sold on luca z and I kinda feel like it might be a disappointment. 164 special attack only goes so far if you don't have spammable high power stab to back it up.

Mega-Absol-Z I'm personally more concerned about but we will see in practice, because after an sd, what exactly switches into sharpness shadow claw + cc + sucker/night slash? I cannot think of much that wants to if anything. Yes it's frail and yes it can lose to mlop but bringing anything in on absol z sounds like a nightmare especially with hazards up, not to mention we have psychic terrain now to block opposing priority if that's an issue. I don't think it's an immediate issue considering :mega-baxcalibur: and :mega-salamence; are here but I could see it being a huge issue later.

Also hearing some murmurs about mega golisopod being broken and while the calcs are insane I gotta see it in practice, as I cannot say anything on it myself

I think also maybe ghold can be freed since cinderace is a real answer to the hazard issue that made ghold far more manageable back in SV. This tier has needed cinderace for a while and I'm glad we have it since cinder is real removal that does not lose to gholdengo
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Mega Lucario at this time is still plenty strong with even just weaker 80bp stabs, as the tier simply isn’t equipped to handle +2 attacks from its massive special attack stat. But even then, if it wants to, FB is very viable. Even max spdef Hippo is OHKOd by focus blast at +2. Corviknight of all things is literal set up fodder because it can’t hurt Lucario Z badly at all, while other mons like Clefable, Exca and Samurott all have to run away from it so it gets that chance easily. Even Glowking lacking TWave has to flee. At +2 and with its huge speed it’s incredibly hard to revenge kill quickly, since it takes halved damage from contact moves. Steel/fighting is quite spammable in this tier, and dark pulse rounds this out by pushing past Aegislash.

Absol Z has no defensive utility and struggles far more often to get on the battlefield itself, and even struggles to force switches. It doesn’t even KO healthy offensive pokemon who have any semblance of physical bulk, meaning most teams can just trade with it. Bulky teams have Garchomp, corv, hippo who can all take hits from it (and with helmet in the game, punish it). It’s also super hazard weasel which only further compounds its frailty.

Gholdengo is absolutely not worth freeing. Cinderace is one pokemon who can’t even run boots right now, and while great, it’s not reasonable to expect teams to run it just to not be oppressed by Gholdengo hazard teams (who can just stack more btw if Cinder is the sole anti hazard tool on a team).

Anyways I’ll just be throwing my hat in to just agree with what’s already been said regarding current targets.

:Salamence-Mega:
:Lucario-Mega-Z:
:Baxcalibur-Mega:

These three need to be removed as soon as possible for the tier to really have a shot at developing naturally. Mence especially is way way WAY above the power level of the tier and had no business being here.
 
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All out attacker Bax is quite good rn. I honestly feel like this Pokemon doesn't actually find that many oppurtunities to setup, so leading and nuking stuff with Glaive or Icicle crash feels much better. Glaive Rush really gives this Pokemon the power boost it needs to break though mons like Samurott-H and Rotom easily, while you still have the fantastic Ice coverage for stuff like Hippo. I don't really like how this Pokemon has a massive rocks weakness though - feels like it dies quite fast as a result.

Mence is quite good but with Bax + Corv on most teams, it definitely doesn't feel quite as free to setup and win as I was expecting. Fire Blast 2HKOing Corv is def annoying and it is adept at playing the long game I feel but you def can't throw it out and "win" as recklessly as I was hoping. Its still a great hole puncher with Double Edge at least - which might be the key element that breaks it - how hard it hits off the bat. I do really like how it keeps annoying HO breakers like Blaziken, Sneasler, Rillaboom, Volcarona, and Annihilape in line though.

Bulk Up Corv is also quite solid. If you grab the setup oppurtunity, its quite adept at cleaning I think. Performed much better than I expected vs DD Mega Bax. Only issue I feel is that Helmet isn't coming into play as much as I was expecting.

The one garg I faced was annoying. Mon under G-terrain just walled both my Baxcalibur and Salamence. Might be worth investing in rn.

TBH, I don't have any immediate qb targets. Mence sure, but mostly because I've been annoyed by Fire Blast mence which a few adaptations on my end could make more palatable. Bax is annoying as well, but idk if its broken just because of the rocks weakness. Main broken element - if there is one - is just crash flinches. Mega might be more busted, but it also is a hard sell for me personally to dedicate a mega slot to it when you can just run base bax + another broken mega like Raichu-Y or Floette and still get by just fine. I can see how its insane - in the same way I see how Mega Garchomp base is insane, but the opp cost is still there.

I also really do not like Rillaboom's presence and think it or G-Terrain could be looked at for tiering action as well. I have not seen a Mega Lucario and I am quite skeptical on whether it really is qb worthy now or its just effective vs teams people are running + meta conditons atm.
 
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M-C has me interested in playing again (you can guarantee I drop Champs OU if you don't suspect Samurott-Hisui in the next 30 days, fyi my haters), what are peoples' thoughts on Rest + Helmet Chomp? Since we're not running Leftovers or Sitrus the lack of any recovery left a sour taste in my mouth when building, and given that we're dealing immense damage to contact moves, I figured even a sleeping Chomper has enough value just by dissuading contact-heavy Pokemon from attacking into us. The downside of course is that without Sleep Talk you can't do anything which makes setup really scary if played wrong, but I'm not sure what you'd want to drop for Sleep Talk. If you can find another Rocker ig it can work with just EQ/Dtail/RestTalk? Unsure with how fast-paced the metagame is, but Helmet Chomp is undeniably good either way as a means of forcing damage on specific targets so that your more offensive-inclined teammates have a better chance at achieving KOs.
 
Used Mega Lucario a bit and this mon definitely is better rn than I gave it credit for. In particular, it hits quite hard and Steel Beam is quite strong letting it delete a few mons that may attempt to trade with it in the 1v1. Still, given how new it is, I don't think QBing it over other, more established targets is the play. I think its taking advantage of a lot of new mechanics introdoced in Reg M-C like G-Terrain + mons like Garchomp switching over to physically defensive sets over specially defensive, and mons like Toxapex seeing a temporary downturn. I think once we see a few other bans, it will become more managable over time. Mons like Mega Alakazam, Sneasler or Rillaboom I think should be targeted first.
 
I think for now we should let the meta settle first before we start QB. Yes I understand that some mons may seem too oppressive and I can see where some people are coming from but let the meta settle first. At least give it a week or two then we can see who mons needs to get qb and suspect test. I wonder which of the news mons/Mega are you guys enjoying. I love Mega Pod. It's so freaking good. A lot of good freaking coverage. Payback and Assurance are interesting for mons that want to attack you or come into you. Mega Pod is not only strong but very bulky and for me this is important. Reminds me of Ferrothorn a little but much more bulk and attack minus the iron barb. What I mean by that is we always need a bulky Pokemon for both defenses but can also dish out decent to good damage and Mega Pod fills that. The big 6 meaning Chomp, Clef, Corv, Glowking, Gambit, and H Sam, doesn't want to take any attacks from Mega Pod because all 6 can be 2ko or ko. I can see Mega Pod being A or B+ tier around there or higher. It has the tools and even though some people might get annoyed by it but for me it's necessary for Ou. It's not invincible but something you need to prepare for.
 
Darlington said:
I think for now we should let the meta settle first before we start QB. Yes I understand that some mons may seem too oppressive and I can see where some people are coming from but let the meta settle first. At least give it a week or two then we can see who mons needs to get qb and suspect test.
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The metagame is never going to settle, not in any heathy way, while obvious brokens are in the tier. Stuff like Mence is outright uncounterable and extremely difficult to answer given its incredibly ease in tweaking its sets, aka versatility. Meanwhile, stuff like Mega Bax just demands an excess in specificity to play around it that isn’t conducive to a healthy metagame, and wouldn’t allow the tier to truly develop.
 
Moyashi said:
The metagame is never going to settle, not in any heathy way, while obvious brokens are in the tier. Stuff like Mence is outright uncounterable and extremely difficult to answer given its incredibly ease in tweaking its sets, aka versatility. Meanwhile, stuff like Mega Bax just demands an excess in specificity to play around it that isn’t conducive to a healthy metagame, and wouldn’t allow the tier to truly develop.
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Mega Mence sure, but Mega Bax? Was trying to build a team around this guy and using it just opens you up to so many threats that are more easily covered by running regular Bax + another mega evolution, whether it ones that handle key roles such as speed control (i.e. Delphox, Lopunny etc) or other megas that cover its weaknesses significantly better than any regular Pokemon available (i.e. Mega Clefable for Entry Hazards, Mega Raichu to form a potent pivoting and breaking core, Mega Scizor to cover misc opposing fairies or opposing Baxcalibur, the various fairies, etc.). I get that banning it would thus be a low impact ban as well, but thusfar I have not seen mega Bax invalidate any counterplay that one would already be using for regular Baxcalibur - at least to the extent that would make up for using an alternative mega and regular Baxcalibur - espicially since regular baxcalibur can hold items to negate counterplay such as Chople Berry or Leftovers to offset entry hazard damage. I believe it would be better to just prioritize banning regular Baxcalibur in that case.
 
acezsz said:
Ban :Light-Clay: , Ban :blaziken-mega: , Ban :Barbaracle-Mega: , Ban :Raichu-Mega-Y: , Ban :metagross-mega: Ban :annihilape: , Ban :grimmsnarl: , Ban :gholdengo: , Ban :Damp-Rock: , Ban :swampert-mega: , Ban :volcarona:, Ban :kommo-o: , Ban :Musharna: , Ban :emolga:. BAN EVERYTHING!
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Ban :salamence-mega:, Ban :baxcalibur-mega:, Ban :lucario-mega-z:, Ban :sneasler:, Ban :baxcalibur:, Ban :rillaboom:, Ban :samurott-Hisui:, Ban :Alakazam-mega:, Ban :Raichu-Mega-Y:, Ban :indeedee:, Ban :Thievul:, Ban :squawkabilly:, Ban :Farfetchd:

BAN BIG 4!!!
 
As much as I love M-Golisopod, I'm pretty confident in the fact that it's gonna end up in UUBL.
As powerful as it is. With an essentially 130 BP priority move. The threats of Blaziken, Ceru, and especially M-Delphox and other fire strong types in the OU Tier make its existence pretty hard. Not to mention Corviknight hard walling it most of the time. However, I do think it will still be a pretty viable threat in the Tier. It beats samu and is pretty confident into sneasler, especially after it receives a drop from CC. With max hp investment, it can also beat Kingambit thanks to close combat.
That's not even mentioning its movepool and possible sheer moveset possibilities.
So I think M-Golisopod will end up as a pretty underrated threat going forward.

Edit: I just got my ass wrecked by a golisopod with liquidation and SD
 
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After playing with it a bit, I'm honestly wondering if, if sneasler gets banned, if Hawlucha will just replace it. Obviously it's not quite as strong, but I'm running a grassy terrain team, and Hawlucha is definitely sweeping to a problematic degree. I could also see a ban for rilla, but that only kicks the can down the road since we will 100% be getting more terrain setters overtime.

There's also the option of the ban The I've been in favor of in multiple tiers, specifically of the seeds, especially grassy seed. I am of the opinion that there are enough Pokemon that abuse them to a problematic degree but even if we ban sneasler and hawlucha, something else will just end up being broken using it to enable setup even without getting the speed boost. Yes in theory you would think that something like Aegislash would help, but any Pokemon that has its seed activated is going to be immune to poltergeist.

I also think that banning seeds has the least overall harm and disruption. Rillaboom is fine on its own, Hawlucha is completely fine on its own and honestly pretty terrible, even sneasler was fine before good terrain setters were introduced. The problem is inherently that those items are just hyper offense fuel, while offering very little to other teams due to their single use nature, especially as more items get added over time. I also think that future nerfs and buffs are unlikely to change the problematic nature of grassy seed, since at least based on how it went in UU (obviously a very different meta game, but another one where hyper offense has been historically very strong this generation, and where rillaboom instantly caused problems once it dropped, we just saw grassy seed being applied to basically anything, hawlucha, but also manaphy, and latios. I think that, in any game where hyper offense is already too strong, those items just push things over the edge)
 
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Probably not worthy of any action just yet (or in general), but I am not a big fan of big 4 mirrors with Baxcalibur. It feels like whichever player uses their baxcalibur better (and actually hits Crash and / or gets those flinches) wins. While Bax is great at destroying the core of Garchomp / Hamu / Slowking-G or Pex / Corv, it is also one of the best Pokemon ON these structures too since its great at shattering the key defensive pieces and can easily pivot in with Slowking-G / Corv / Samu.

This probably isn't anything new - some megas like Meganium or Metagross kinda felt similar in how they operated & it isn't too different from CorvKingLu mirrors with Kyurem in SV OU. The main notable thing with bax is that it feels like it can do this regardless of whether or not its Megas, which I think is unique compared to other Pokemon in the tier.
 
AuroraOurania said:
After playing with it a bit, I'm honestly wondering if, if sneasler gets banned, if Hawlucha will just replace it. Obviously it's not quite as strong, but I'm running a grassy terrain team, and Hawlucha is definitely sweeping to a problematic degree. I could also see a ban for rilla, but that only kicks the can down the road since we will 100% be getting more terrain setters overtime.

There's also the option of the ban The I've been in favor of in multiple tiers, specifically of the seeds, especially grassy seed. I am of the opinion that there are enough Pokemon that abuse them to a problematic degree but even if we ban sneasler and hawlucha, something else will just end up being broken using it to enable setup even without getting the speed boost. Yes in theory you would think that something like Aegislash would help, but any Pokemon that has its seed activated is going to be immune to poltergeist.

I also think that banning seeds has the least overall harm and disruption. Rillaboom is fine on its own, Hawlucha is completely fine on its own and honestly pretty terrible, even sneasler was fine before good terrain setters were introduced. The problem is inherently that those items are just hyper offense fuel, while offering very little to other teams due to their single use nature, especially as more items get added over time. I also think that future nerfs and buffs are unlikely to change the problematic nature of grassy seed, since at least based on how it went in UU (obviously a very different meta game, but another one where hyper offense has been historically very strong this generation, and where rillaboom instantly caused problems once it dropped, we just saw grassy seed being applied to basically anything, hawlucha, but also manaphy, and latios. I think that, in any game where hyper offense is already too strong, those items just push things over the edge)
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Hawlucha is a lot more reasonable to answer and has actual answers. It’s troubled by the prevalence of many checks like Aegislash, Galar Slowking, Corviknight, Garchomp, Hatterene, Rotom-W, not to mention it being considerably less powerful which can cause it to fall short of KOs even at +2.

Magcargo said:
Probably not worthy of any action just yet (or in general), but I am not a big fan of big 4 mirrors with Baxcalibur. It feels like whichever player uses their baxcalibur better (and actually hits Crash and / or gets those flinches) wins. While Bax is great at destroying the core of Garchomp / Hamu / Slowking-G or Pex / Corv, it is also one of the best Pokemon ON these structures too since its great at shattering the key defensive pieces and can easily pivot in with Slowking-G / Corv / Samu.

This probably isn't anything new - some megas like Meganium or Metagross kinda felt similar in how they operated & it isn't too different from CorvKingLu mirrors with Kyurem in SV OU. The main notable thing with bax is that it feels like it can do this regardless of whether or not its Megas, which I think is unique compared to other Pokemon in the tier.
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Click to collapse...

Honestly after playing more, I’m getting the feeling that Bax is like
Blaziken, in that it’s extremely threatening even without needing to mega, and could be broken all the same.

Btw speaking of Blaziken it’s still broken. If anything it feels more broken thanks to Rilla existing now.
 
y'know as silly as this sounds with all the talk of terrain wouldn't that mean the seeds should be banned?
i'm probably wrong here but like there's sneasler in terrain and blaziken in terrain and hawlucha in terrain and maybe even baxcalibur in terrain
it's not an 'every pokemon under terrain is broken' sort of thing but like you guys get what i'm getting at right
 
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