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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

(I suspect someone may come in and shut down the terapagos discussion eventually. Hot take but I've always hated that brand of moderator action. Nothing wrong with talking sets and stuff, but the current discussion is actually interesting and would ideally go somewhere especially in a metagame that is getting old. Anyway, hoping at least some people in the council or whatever are seriously discussing Terapagos, tho I unfortunately think they won't budge.)
I think the thread reached a point where there's nothing productive going on anyways so no one cares.

FWIW OU leads can't do anything regarding terapagos and have to run it by higher ups if its even 'legal' to offer such an option, which is why stuff like this usually gets 1 chance in policy review and gets shot down cause updating status quo is not a commonality.

I do think special casing terapagos off the vibe that its different enough raises a slippery slope of other considerations. You can drop shaymin-sky with no argument by just saying it can't have air slash or leech seed, you can unban volc by disabling its tera button which is the exact same method they'd use for terapagos, you can release bug arceus by just saying its a unique pokemon since its forced to holding a plate making it the shittiest stealth rock weak type without HDB and be stuck with a mediocre STAB typing, or you can free baton pass so long as speed boosters can't take it.

Using the tera button as a balance lever just sounds like a bad idea in general, once you do that you can do it for pretty much anything. Terapagos will functionally be the only pokemon in all of OU where the option to defensive tera is not there, neither will the option to offensive tera, and by having it on your team you've narrowed down the pokemon you can tera for your opponent to 5 instead of 6. Like isn't it really shitty this is a hazard setter that can't block spins with tera ghost? It might not even be as good as we think to be worth this trouble. If the tera button is a viable balance lever for certain pokemon, at that point we should be questioning the mechanic as a whole and whether tera needs the dynamax treatment, I doubt this deep into the gen a full tera ban would succeed cause most of the anti-tera crowd left years ago or got used to it but we kind of have to accept everything should be considered as if it can tera on equal footing cause thats what was voted in months after the game came out.
 
I think the thread reached a point where there's nothing productive going on anyways so no one cares.

FWIW OU leads can't do anything regarding terapagos and have to run it by higher ups if its even 'legal' to offer such an option, which is why stuff like this usually gets 1 chance in policy review and gets shot down cause updating status quo is not a commonality.

I do think special casing terapagos off the vibe that its different enough raises a slippery slope of other considerations. You can drop shaymin-sky with no argument by just saying it can't have air slash or leech seed, you can unban volc by disabling its tera button which is the exact same method they'd use for terapagos, you can release bug arceus by just saying its a unique pokemon since its forced to holding a plate making it the shittiest stealth rock weak type without HDB and be stuck with a mediocre STAB typing, or you can free baton pass so long as speed boosters can't take it.

Using the tera button as a balance lever just sounds like a bad idea in general, once you do that you can do it for pretty much anything. Terapagos will functionally be the only pokemon in all of OU where the option to defensive tera is not there, neither will the option to offensive tera, and by having it on your team you've narrowed down the pokemon you can tera for your opponent to 5 instead of 6. Like isn't it really shitty this is a hazard setter that can't block spins with tera ghost? It might not even be as good as we think to be worth this trouble. If the tera button is a viable balance lever for certain pokemon, at that point we should be questioning the mechanic as a whole and whether tera needs the dynamax treatment, I doubt this deep into the gen a full tera ban would succeed cause most of the anti-tera crowd left years ago or got used to it but we kind of have to accept everything should be considered as if it can tera on equal footing cause thats what was voted in months after the game came out.
Agreed. I'd rather see action on things that are actively harmful to the tier. It's not as if the tier is lacking in offensive hazard removal. And when there's so many unreasonable offensive threats running around it feels like a non starter. I get that the tier's been active for a while, and I think a lot of people just want change, but it's important to consider what's substantive change and what's hazard removal option #5. Not that there's anything wrong with that, mind you, but it's not like we don't have options.
 
I think the thread reached a point where there's nothing productive going on anyways so no one cares.

FWIW OU leads can't do anything regarding terapagos and have to run it by higher ups if its even 'legal' to offer such an option, which is why stuff like this usually gets 1 chance in policy review and gets shot down cause updating status quo is not a commonality.

I do think special casing terapagos off the vibe that its different enough raises a slippery slope of other considerations. You can drop shaymin-sky with no argument by just saying it can't have air slash or leech seed, you can unban volc by disabling its tera button which is the exact same method they'd use for terapagos, you can release bug arceus by just saying its a unique pokemon since its forced to holding a plate making it the shittiest stealth rock weak type without HDB and be stuck with a mediocre STAB typing, or you can free baton pass so long as speed boosters can't take it.

Using the tera button as a balance lever just sounds like a bad idea in general, once you do that you can do it for pretty much anything. Terapagos will functionally be the only pokemon in all of OU where the option to defensive tera is not there, neither will the option to offensive tera, and by having it on your team you've narrowed down the pokemon you can tera for your opponent to 5 instead of 6. Like isn't it really shitty this is a hazard setter that can't block spins with tera ghost? It might not even be as good as we think to be worth this trouble. If the tera button is a viable balance lever for certain pokemon, at that point we should be questioning the mechanic as a whole and whether tera needs the dynamax treatment, I doubt this deep into the gen a full tera ban would succeed cause most of the anti-tera crowd left years ago or got used to it but we kind of have to accept everything should be considered as if it can tera on equal footing cause thats what was voted in months after the game came out.
This argument is a fallacious one that cyclically comes up throughout this Terapagos conversation.

Terapagos-Stellar form is NOT a comparable case to "Volcarona with Tera [X] active" beyond the level of clicking the Terastal button being what initiates both changes in game state. Stellar Terapagos sees a direct stat increase (including to its HP, something that isn't even a Mega comparison so much as analogous to Zygarde-Complete), retains the exact same defensive profile for typing, has an ability change, and is hard-locked to its Stellar form in general. It very VERY clearly is not using the generic function of Tera, so much as being a separate form change that uses up the same "resource" to click on: to bring it back, funnily, to Rayquaza again, Mega Ray with Dragon Ascent is barred from clicking the Mega Evolution button while holding a Z-Crystal, despite nothing in the game barring Megas and Z-Moves on the same team outside of this one very specific edge case.

The Arceus-Bug comparison similarly falls flat because the point isn't about a unique clause: even the worst Arceus form is too strong and centralizing at an OU power level, so it would be banned/Suspected regardless of if there are means to tier them individually. The Terapagos debate is over the fact that Terapagos-Terastal and Terapagos-Stellar have arguments to make about being tiered/banned separately, with one being healthy and the other being unhealthy and thus banned by normal practice once the distinction is made.

It's disingenuous to reduce it to "using the Tera Button as a balance lever" because this is not barring "Terapagos from using one/any of the 17 Tera types" as would be the scenario with Kingambit or Dragonite (or every OU mon besides Ogerpon); this is banning Terapagos-S as a Pokemon form that is too strong for the tier, which is triggered by the same button but has a wholly distinction function and interaction.

The final paragraph in particular makes me wonder if you're having the same conversation as the rest of us: I don't know why you brought up being a hazard setter without Tera Ghost, when if anything, Terapagos is wanted specifically for REMOVAL as has been mentioned multiple times, and this is a job for which Tera would not be as integral to it given its Normal base typing and Bulk already let it manage Ghost offense like Gholdengo. Comparing balancing via Tera option on Terapagos as a means to compare how Tera vs Dynamax should work is, to put it simply, a complete strawman, considering that Terapagos does not even function the same way beyond using the Terastal button and 1-use of the team. It'd be akin to to Ultra Necrozma in Ubers prompting Mechanic-wide action on Z-Crystals in the tier for the (lack of) similarity between the respective mechanics and interactions. Meanwhile on the point about Terapagos dropping you from 6 Tera options to 5: yes, everyone discussing this mon in good faith is (or should) already be aware of this, and Terapagos has very clearly been argued because people find merit in how Terapagos-Terastal will perform without the ability to click the Tera button, to Stellar form or otherwise. This isn't a counterargument so much as a premise that was already understood before beginning.
 
The handling of broken megas is technically a complex ban. The stones themselves are not banned, only the combination e.g. Salamence + Salamencite.

I've seen the counterargument that this is just a mistake no one cares about and Salamencite should be banned as a whole. Well to be even more nitpicky, Salamencite as an item is not broken on every pokemon. It does technically have a function in absorbing knock off.

So either:
1. Ban the combination of Salamence + Salamencite, and you technically have a complex ban e.g. banning Rage Fist Annihilape but not Rage Fist Primeape
2. Ban only Salamencite, and you've banned something broken on only one pokemon e.g. banning Rage Fist as a whole when Rage Fist Primeape is not broken.

This can be easily reconciled by just recognizing that Smogon has always acknowledged form changes as something to be accounted for separately in tiering policy, and to ban a form is not a complex ban like banning a single move or ability.

Mega Ray aside. Vast majority of the playerbase wanting Terapagos freed aside. If you get really obnoxious about tiering policy, you'll come across this discrepancy anyway lol.
 
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I think the thread reached a point where there's nothing productive going on anyways so no one cares.

FWIW OU leads can't do anything regarding terapagos and have to run it by higher ups if its even 'legal' to offer such an option, which is why stuff like this usually gets 1 chance in policy review and gets shot down cause updating status quo is not a commonality.

I do think special casing terapagos off the vibe that its different enough raises a slippery slope of other considerations. You can drop shaymin-sky with no argument by just saying it can't have air slash or leech seed, you can unban volc by disabling its tera button which is the exact same method they'd use for terapagos, you can release bug arceus by just saying its a unique pokemon since its forced to holding a plate making it the shittiest stealth rock weak type without HDB and be stuck with a mediocre STAB typing, or you can free baton pass so long as speed boosters can't take it.

Using the tera button as a balance lever just sounds like a bad idea in general, once you do that you can do it for pretty much anything. Terapagos will functionally be the only pokemon in all of OU where the option to defensive tera is not there, neither will the option to offensive tera, and by having it on your team you've narrowed down the pokemon you can tera for your opponent to 5 instead of 6. Like isn't it really shitty this is a hazard setter that can't block spins with tera ghost? It might not even be as good as we think to be worth this trouble. If the tera button is a viable balance lever for certain pokemon, at that point we should be questioning the mechanic as a whole and whether tera needs the dynamax treatment, I doubt this deep into the gen a full tera ban would succeed cause most of the anti-tera crowd left years ago or got used to it but we kind of have to accept everything should be considered as if it can tera on equal footing cause thats what was voted in months after the game came out.
pika pal already covered most of this post but I'm gonna add that I don't see the point of bringing up "It might not even be as good as we think to be worth this trouble". If it ends up not being good in OU for some bizarre reason despite being good in NatDex, then UU will love it. Not being good isn't a good argument to keep it banned.
 
On the topic of suspecting Cresselia, can someone explain to me why we haven't gotten a suspect test on Ceruledge yet? This thing behind Screens is a cancer to society. Losing to Cresselia is like dying to a snake bite, while losing to Ceruledge is like getting tied to the rails and ran over by a train. It's hilarious to see the "council" discussing a NUBL mon while this menace to society roams around OU freely. Close Combat + Poltergeist is insane coverage, Bitter Blade + Focus Sash means it will get one kill at the very least, maybe even two. Or are you guys blaming this on Light Clay?
 
Honestly all these discussions, especially regarding Terapagos, has made me realize just how implementing a Tera restriction where certain Pokemon are simply banned from Terastalizing would fix 90% of the issues these past banlists have and allows you to be way more precise while having way smaller chance of having negative repercussions. It is absolutely clear that Terastalization is a mechanic that people are fond of and wants to stay, and is also absolutely clear that there are multiple Pokemon in a contentious spot where they are overtuned with Tera and not without, so simply just have a restriction list of Pokemon that can't click the button. Tera Blast, Volcarona, Cresselia, Roaring Moon, and Terapagos wouldn't need to be a discussion if you just implemented something like this and you won't have instances where banning Tera Blast suddenly guts Pokemon for no reason like Porygon2. Dragonite and Kingambit are also Pokemon the playerbase is clearly contentious on but refuses to be looked at, and a Tera restriction would be a middle ground that is actually possible to accomplish without stirring massive division. Without the massive division, you can likely implement changes very quickly.

I'm just going to blanket address some complaints I'm expecting people to have. If you're concerned about it being too complicated to understand, it isn't difficult to understand at all. Just have a bracket under "Play Restrictions" in the OU Format page that lists the Pokemon, a page you're going to have to do anyways if you're a newcomer. Otherwise, it's a change so simple you don't even have to change any pre-existing team, when you boot up Showdown with a Tera restricted Pokemon you simply just won't be able to click the Tera button.

If someone complains that nerfing Pokemon rather than banning them is playing favoritism, then my response is that I don't care. The banning itself is playing extreme levels of favoritism, with Pokemon like the aforementioned Kingambit and Dragonite not being addressed, even going so far as banning a move like Tera Blast, which, let's be honest, was specifically to not just hit them. There isn't a clear statement from the council as to what the ideal goal actually is, and, as a result, you have both a ban happy response (Cresselia) and a wild west approach (unbanning Roaring Moon) being discussed by the council at the exact same time. Pokemon is a game where people want to use their favorite Pokemon, and being able to use a variety of Pokemon is the appeal of 6v6 singles especially. Nerfing a Pokemon rather than banning it is always the superior option.

Lastly, if someone complains that this can't happen because it's not an established precedent, then my response is, again, that I don't care. It's wild how I see appeal to tradition being used so much to destroy discussions as if Smogon didn't do stuff like implement Mega Rayquaza clause or a Drizzle + Swift Swim ban back in BW OU. Taking "established precedent" so seriously that it stifles any chance of growth also ignores that this is an entirely fan-made format and reeks of lacking self awareness.

Tl;dr: Adding a Tera Restriction list would be pretty cool.
 
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If someone complains that nerfing Pokemon rather than banning them is playing favoritism, then my response is that I don't care. The banning itself is playing extreme levels of favoritism, with Pokemon like the aforementioned Kingambit and Dragonite not being addressed, even going so far as banning a move like Tera Blast, which, let's be honest, was specifically to not just hit them.

...not at all? These pokemon may be annoying at times, but they're not even at their peak compared to other points in the generation. Removing Tera Blast removed annoying levels of variance from the tier (and was the primary reason to remove it), and allowed for teambuilding to actually focus on checking these threats properly rather than worry about their capacity to suddenly spit out coverage they're not supposed to have access to normally.

These two haven't been addressed because there isn't a push for them to be addressed. They'll always have their detractors, there's no getting around that, but they simply aren't at a point where they require action.

Also, the reason nerfing pokemon instead of banning them is silly is because it's wholly arbitrary. Simple bans work best because they judge Pokemon as they are, the sum of their parts, which 99% of the time is how they are broken. Not by any one factor but by a combination of their traits together. Even in your argument that Tera pushes mons over the edge (there's so many pokemon btw that would remain banned even WITHOUT tera that it'd be a pointless move), it's not really even accurate. It's specific Tera types that help elevate these mons, so banning Tera on them as a whole would still be too much of an overreaction.

In most cases of pokemon banned this gen, it isn't Tera that alone pushes something over the edge but a combination of their traits together. Banning Tera use is just trying to arbitrarily preserve mons (when again, most of them are broken without it) is pointless. Judge the mon for what they are as a whole.

There isn't a clear statement from the council as to what the ideal goal actually is, and, as a result, you have both a ban happy response (Cresselia) and a wild west approach (unbanning Roaring Moon) being discussed by the council at the exact same time. Pokemon is a game where people want to use their favorite Pokemon, and being able to use a variety of Pokemon is the appeal of 6v6 singles especially. Nerfing a Pokemon rather than banning it is always the superior option.

There is no "ban happy" response.

There is no 'wild west' approach either, as Roaring Moon was something that should've been suspected post Tera Blast ban at some point as people believed it would be more reasonable. Now, I don't agree that it is a healthy presence, but that's my personal opinion. It absolutely deserves its shot if there is support for a retest. And I'm just gonna push back on "being able to use a variety of Pokemon is the appeal of 6v6 singles especially", because that is not the appeal of 6v6. It's a competitive format, like VGC, and if you intend to win you're going to use the mons that are strong, not necessarily your favorites. People play 6v6 because it's their preferred style of play.

Lastly, if someone complains that this can't happen because it's not an established precedent, then my response is, again, that I don't care. It's wild how I see appeal to tradition being used so much to destroy discussions as if Smogon didn't do stuff like implement Mega Rayquaza clause or a Drizzle + Swift Swim ban back in BW OU. Taking "established precedent" seriously also ignores that this is an entirely fan-made format and reeks of lacking self awareness.
Citing Swift+Drizzle complex ban is not helping as an argument, respectfully, when said ban was highly controversial and generally not looked back on that well. 6v6 being a 'fan format' is not really an argument either.
 
On the topic of suspecting Cresselia, can someone explain to me why we haven't gotten a suspect test on Ceruledge yet? This thing behind Screens is a cancer to society. Losing to Cresselia is like dying to a snake bite, while losing to Ceruledge is like getting tied to the rails and ran over by a train. It's hilarious to see the "council" discussing a NUBL mon while this menace to society roams around OU freely. Close Combat + Poltergeist is insane coverage, Bitter Blade + Focus Sash means it will get one kill at the very least, maybe even two. Or are you guys blaming this on Light Clay?
i want dog and ghold gone, absolutely cancerous. what mons are u crrently having issues with?
 
Also, the reason nerfing pokemon instead of banning them is silly is because it's wholly arbitrary. Simple bans work best because they judge Pokemon as they are, the sum of their parts, which 99% of the time is how they are broken. Not by any one factor but by a combination of their traits together. Even in your argument that Tera pushes mons over the edge (there's so many pokemon btw that would remain banned even WITHOUT tera that it'd be a pointless move), it's not really even accurate. It's specific Tera types that help elevate these mons, so banning Tera on them as a whole would still be too much of an overreaction.
Dragonite, Kingambit, Kyurem, and even Ceruledge are still being frequently complained about. It was such a miniscule nerf on the Pokemon that were complained for abusing it while just gutting many other Pokemon for no reason.
Also, the reason nerfing pokemon instead of banning them is silly is because it's wholly arbitrary. Simple bans work best because they judge Pokemon as they are, the sum of their parts, which 99% of the time is how they are broken.
Even IF I agreed with you that there is no practical purpose in nerfing Pokemon as opposed to banning them, does this mean Pokemon frequently complained about even be tested then, or will it just be forever limbo? Nerfs are much more efficient and my suggestion is extremely simple both to understand and to execute anyways.
Not by any one factor but by a combination of their traits together. Even in your argument that Tera pushes mons over the edge (there's so many pokemon btw that would remain banned even WITHOUT tera that it'd be a pointless move), it's not really even accurate. It's specific Tera types that help elevate these mons, so banning Tera on them as a whole would still be too much of an overreaction.

In most cases of pokemon banned this gen, it isn't Tera that alone pushes something over the edge but a combination of their traits together. Banning Tera use is just trying to arbitrarily preserve mons (when again, most of them are broken without it) is pointless. Judge the mon for what they are as a whole.
I literally just provided examples of Pokemon that are being suspect tested or limited because of Tera. It is clear that at minimum Terapagos is a very desired Pokemon in the metagame that would have no issues without the Tera option. It only applying to 5-6 Pokemon off the top of my head is a point for adding the restriction because it is both a substantial amount while simultaneously not being so large that it becomes a headache to keep track of.
Citing Swift+Drizzle complex ban is not helping as an argument, respectfully, when said ban was highly controversial and generally not looked back on that well. 6v6 being a 'fan format' is not really an argument either.
They literally modified a clause in BW OU well after it was current gen to add Sand Rush + Sand clause (ultimately ending on banning Sand Rush) SPECIFICALLY to bring back Excadrill, despite it not being broken on Sandslash or Stoutland. Crazy part is? I think it's completely fine and nobody who actually plays the tier complains about it either. Point is, it is still entirely arbitrary and the council can either choose to pretend that these decisions ultimately don't have some level of arbitrariness or live in delusion and be people who are extremely annoying.
 
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pika pal already covered most of this post but I'm gonna add that I don't see the point of bringing up "It might not even be as good as we think to be worth this trouble". If it ends up not being good in OU for some bizarre reason despite being good in NatDex, then UU will love it. Not being good isn't a good argument to keep it banned.
Its an argument in the sense its unproductive and does nothing for us. Breaking precedent for the sake of lower tiers (which is unprecedented in itself) means nothing gained. Hypothetically speaking whether that it does nothing or something for the tier.

This argument is a fallacious one that cyclically comes up throughout this Terapagos conversation.

Terapagos-Stellar form is NOT a comparable case to "Volcarona with Tera [X] active" beyond the level of clicking the Terastal button being what initiates both changes in game state. Stellar Terapagos sees a direct stat increase (including to its HP, something that isn't even a Mega comparison so much as analogous to Zygarde-Complete), retains the exact same defensive profile for typing, has an ability change, and is hard-locked to its Stellar form in general. It very VERY clearly is not using the generic function of Tera, so much as being a separate form change that uses up the same "resource" to click on: to bring it back, funnily, to Rayquaza again, Mega Ray with Dragon Ascent is barred from clicking the Mega Evolution button while holding a Z-Crystal, despite nothing in the game barring Megas and Z-Moves on the same team outside of this one very specific edge case.

The Arceus-Bug comparison similarly falls flat because the point isn't about a unique clause: even the worst Arceus form is too strong and centralizing at an OU power level, so it would be banned/Suspected regardless of if there are means to tier them individually. The Terapagos debate is over the fact that Terapagos-Terastal and Terapagos-Stellar have arguments to make about being tiered/banned separately, with one being healthy and the other being unhealthy and thus banned by normal practice once the distinction is made.

It's disingenuous to reduce it to "using the Tera Button as a balance lever" because this is not barring "Terapagos from using one/any of the 17 Tera types" as would be the scenario with Kingambit or Dragonite (or every OU mon besides Ogerpon); this is banning Terapagos-S as a Pokemon form that is too strong for the tier, which is triggered by the same button but has a wholly distinction function and interaction.

The final paragraph in particular makes me wonder if you're having the same conversation as the rest of us: I don't know why you brought up being a hazard setter without Tera Ghost, when if anything, Terapagos is wanted specifically for REMOVAL as has been mentioned multiple times, and this is a job for which Tera would not be as integral to it given its Normal base typing and Bulk already let it manage Ghost offense like Gholdengo. Comparing balancing via Tera option on Terapagos as a means to compare how Tera vs Dynamax should work is, to put it simply, a complete strawman, considering that Terapagos does not even function the same way beyond using the Terastal button and 1-use of the team. It'd be akin to to Ultra Necrozma in Ubers prompting Mechanic-wide action on Z-Crystals in the tier for the (lack of) similarity between the respective mechanics and interactions. Meanwhile on the point about Terapagos dropping you from 6 Tera options to 5: yes, everyone discussing this mon in good faith is (or should) already be aware of this, and Terapagos has very clearly been argued because people find merit in how Terapagos-Terastal will perform without the ability to click the Tera button, to Stellar form or otherwise. This isn't a counterargument so much as a premise that was already understood before beginning.

I appreciate the more in-depth explanation and will admit I overlooked some of the major differences when making my case, its not 1:1 sure but I still think we're using tera button as a balance lever in this case. I would've argued terapagos getting defensive / offensive boost from its form swap is not that different in practice (in a tunneled 1v1 scenario where a setup sweeper just needs to brute force or tank something) from the type changing of tera as a mechanic / additional STAB / increase in a primary STAB or reduce the effectiveness of a would be revenge killer / offensive matchup trying to eliminate the threat before it gets going, but I now understand the more limited pool its working with.

Either way I'm not sure how you setup a clause for specifically targeting 1 tera type and not just roll with that on other tera users. Mega ray spawned a whole format of its own to serve as its banlist since the original banlist (ubers) wasn't playable with it around, I don't think terapagos compares cause its just sharing a trait everything else is using, mega ray doesn't require its item to use its mega and dragon ascent for whatever could use it (base ray and.. smeargle?) wasn't the problem so there's no physical element to lock out of the tier. Terapagos you can't lock out stellar off the premise that stellar is fine on literally everything else, and there is no item associated (mega stones). You're just disabling the mechanic for specifically this 1 pokemon cause it has a special interaction after its used, this could've been done for a lot of pokemon including in the past enabling individual gigantimaxes that sucked compared to average dynamaxes as a whole cause 'gigantimaxes were special case form swaps' (would kingler but broken in OU if you can enable a would-be globally accessible button for specifically it if gigantimax was its only option? Doesn't mean you need to free RNG shit like butterfree but it means you can discuss who or what gets privileges to a generational mechanic.), the button was disabled for all.

FWIW the mega ray case was in itself a huge mess and probably could've been handled better, that was a knee-jerk reaction to how comically broken it was at the time and the process wasn't as thought as out beyond 'just getting rid of it'.

Just don't see a real approach for Terapagos + stellar ban cause you could result in the pretext that stellar breaks the mon; why not just ban tera fairy + moon/volc atp, or chi-yu + STAB tera to nerf its damage? If its not a specific tera cause that tera doesn't break anything else and you're disabling the button for specifically terapagos then why not just disable the button on the tier's most egregious users?
 
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Its an argument in the sense its unproductive and does nothing for us. Breaking precedent for the sake of lower tiers (which is unprecedented in itself) means nothing gained. Hypothetically speaking whether that it does nothing or something for the tier.



I appreciate the more in-depth explanation and will admit I overlooked some of the major differences when making my case, its not 1:1 sure but I still think we're using tera button as a balance lever in this case. I would've argued terapagos getting defensive / offensive boost from its form swap is not that different in practice (in a tunneled 1v1 scenario where a setup sweeper just needs to brute force or tank something) from the type changing of tera as a mechanic / additional STAB / increase in a primary STAB or reduce the effectiveness of a would be revenge killer / offensive matchup trying to eliminate the threat before it gets going, but I now understand the more limited pool its working with.

Either way I'm not sure how you setup a clause for specifically targeting 1 tera type and not just roll with that on other tera users. Mega ray spawned a whole format of its own to serve as its banlist since the original banlist (ubers) wasn't playable with it around, I don't think terapagos compares cause its just sharing a trait everything else is using, mega ray doesn't require its item to use its mega and dragon ascent for whatever could use it (base ray and.. smeargle?) wasn't the problem so there's no physical element to lock out of the tier. Terapagos you can't lock out stellar off the premise that stellar is fine on literally everything else, and there is no item associated (mega stones). You're just disabling the mechanic for specifically this 1 pokemon cause it has a special interaction after its used, this could've been done for a lot of pokemon including in the past enabling individual gigantimaxes that sucked compared to average dynamaxes as a whole cause 'gigantimaxes were special case form swaps' (would kingler but broken in OU if you can enable a would-be globally accessible button for specifically it if gigantimax was its only option? Doesn't mean you need to free RNG shit like butterfree but it means you can discuss who or what gets privileges to a generational mechanic.), the button was disabled for all.

FWIW the mega ray case was in itself a huge mess and probably could've been handled better, that was a knee-jerk reaction to how comically broken it was at the time and the process wasn't as thought as out beyond 'just getting rid of it'.

Just don't see a real approach for Terapagos + stellar ban cause you could result in the pretext that stellar breaks the mon; why not just ban tera fairy + moon/volc atp, or chi-yu + STAB tera to nerf its damage? If its not a specific tera cause that tera doesn't break anything else and you're disabling the button for specifically terapagos then why not just disable the button on the tier's most egregious users?
I feel like there's a misunderstanding going on with Terapagos again based on the way you're arguing against its ban as "Terapagos + Stellar" or Stellar being fine on everything else. Understandable since Terapagos hasn't been playable very long in any relevant OU format (and is irrelevant in Ubers so not likely to experience much there either), but it's another distinction that brings us back to arguing from a flawed premise, much less questionable arguments to support the example.

Terapagos-Stellar is not necessarily the same as a hypothetical "Terapagos with a Stellar Tera Type" like Roaring Moon with a Fairy Tera type. Terapagos's Stellar form is a flat out new Pokemon form by most relevant metrics (Stat changes, a signature move interaction, and being hard-locked into its own version). You do not have the option to play Terapagos with the standard version of Tera (i.e. Terapagos-Terastal with a Fire, Water, Fairy or even Stellar Tera type and no non-generic interactions). This is one respect in which Terapagos-Stellar functions closer to a Mega than a standard Terastalization (and why I think I at one point off-handedly mentioned Ultra Necrozma being to Z-moves a similar edge case). It is to the point that the Orange Islands threads hacking Terapagos to use other Tera types STILL turned into the Stellar form with the Stat and HP increases, and Tera Starstorm seemed to retain its behavior (Tera Ghost was hitting Normal and Ghost targets for regular damage, and Terastalized claimed "Super Effective"), all of which mark that Terapagos-Stellar is coded as a distinct Mon/Form in the code rather than simply a modification on top of Terapagos-Terastal as most standard Terastalizations or theoretically Dynamaxes were. Gigantamax is again a non-starter because it doesn't actually alter NEARLY as much about the user's gameplay compared to standard Dynamax as compared to Terapagos-Stellar vs standard Terastalization: you still retain traits that made it unbalanced such as on-demand triggering of 2x HP, the majority of generic Max moves and their corresponding secondary effects, and immunity to several interrupt mechanics. This analogy would only maybe work if Terapagos had regular Tera access and changed ONLY Tera Starstorm on Terastalizing, bringing it much more in-line with the function of other Terastal users, but in that scenario it would not be a stand out edge case that warranted this talk of Policy vs a Standard suspect in the first place.

ETA: Something else I learned is that Ditto is capable of turning into Terapagos-Terastal, but it cannot become Terapagos-Stellar through any means, be it trying to directly Transform, or turning into Terapagos-T and then Terastalizing itself (Stellar or otherwise). Notably, Ditto is capable of Terastalizing after transforming into any other non-Unique-Terastal Pokemon (i.e. Ogerpon forms) using its own Tera type, but once Ditto is Tera-Stellar'd specifically, Transform fails on subsequent uses (such as if Ditto leaves and comes back): the important interaction here is that Terapagos is the only (relevant to this topic) Pokemon that does not let a Transform Pokemon Tera AT ALL, another indicator that Terapagos-Stellar is a separate form rather than just a Terastalized Terapagos. Transform does not allow the Transformed Pokemon to form change in-battle from the Transformed state (as pertains to things such as Minior's Shields Down, Aegislash's Stance Change, etc), and several forms do not allow Transforming directly into them, usually they default to a regular state (such as Dynamax becoming the normal version) or blocking the Transformation explicitly as we have now. Just more fuel on the point being clarified

It is NOT sharing a trait everything else is using unless you are strictly referring to the 1-click Tera Button as the resource expended, you cannot in anyway produce a comparable "Kingambit-Stellar" with comparable changes to its stats or unique mechanical behaviors. This isn't "Terapagos + Stellar" ban, this is "Terapagos-Stellar as a specific form" in concept, it's not a complex clause in terms of phrasing or understand in its own case, and at least personally I'm not convinced of any slippery slope it opens the door for when we have precedent for tiering player-triggered-in-battle forms separately with Megas. Rayquaza only specifies the precedent for banning the Mega directly rather than a roundabout method that accomplishes the same like "Stone is banned, stone only matters for Mega Evolution anyway." Slippery slope of disabling the button "the tier's most egregious users" is a non-start because they use the button exactly the same as everything else, and are not inherently overpowered to a quickban degree when using the Terastal for the team; neither of these statements is true of Terapagos, with Terapagos-S being a very unique and specific transformation off the mechanic, and Terapagos-S being FAR more egregious and unhealthy than anything currently in OU or even being discussed for drop like Roaring Moon. The button being disabled is because it offers Terapagos exactly 1 option, is easily replicable on Software with our usual ruleset practices, that option is the one thing that makes it egregious, and the button enables a different form entirely rather than simply an addition to a kit that is fundamentally the same Pokemon otherwise. This also distinguishes it from something like Archaludon or Annihilape signature move talk, because Terapagos-S is a different Pokemon in multiple functional ways, rather than one piece of a kit that is considered unbalanced only when viewed holistically.
 
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The greatest example of selective hand-wavy “this isn’t a complex ban” was banning power construct in Gen 7. People still unironically claim that “it’s a different Pokemon” in the code in their sheer cognitive dissonance to not be real with what they were doing. This isn’t to dunk on that ban, I think it’s great! Zygarde Complete is a weird edge case and we treated it like one (aura break zygarde’s eventual ban notwithstanding). Can’t we just be like, a little smart and brave here and just get this done? Free the turtle.
 
The greatest example of selective hand-wavy “this isn’t a complex ban” was banning power construct in Gen 7. People still unironically claim that “it’s a different Pokemon” in the code in their sheer cognitive dissonance to not be real with what they were doing. This isn’t to dunk on that ban, I think it’s great! Zygarde Complete is a weird edge case and we treated it like one (aura break zygarde’s eventual ban notwithstanding). Can’t we just be like, a little smart and brave here and just get this done? Free the turtle.
I clearly misinterpret how terapagos works, but AFAIK the reasoning for zygarde is that it technically affects 2 pokemon; 50% & 10% form, thus its easy to say 'the ability is broken' as an isolated ban target (aura break is not, much like various evasion or even moody abilities the ability itself is banned not the pokemon involved.), zygarde-complete isn't banned technically, power construct is.

Granted 50% zygarde still ends up being too much but it has a chance while 10% gets to stay cause of the power construct ban.
 
ETA: Something else I learned is that Ditto is capable of turning into Terapagos-Terastal, but it cannot become Terapagos-Stellar through any means, be it trying to directly Transform, or turning into Terapagos-T and then Terastalizing itself (Stellar or otherwise). Notably, Ditto is capable of Terastalizing after transforming into any other non-Unique-Terastal Pokemon (i.e. Ogerpon forms) using its own Tera type, but once Ditto is Tera-Stellar'd specifically, Transform fails on subsequent uses (such as if Ditto leaves and comes back): the important interaction here is that Terapagos is the only (relevant to this topic) Pokemon that does not let a Transform Pokemon Tera AT ALL, another indicator that Terapagos-Stellar is a separate form rather than just a Terastalized Terapagos. Transform does not allow the Transformed Pokemon to form change in-battle from the Transformed state (as pertains to things such as Minior's Shields Down, Aegislash's Stance Change, etc), and several forms do not allow Transforming directly into them, usually they default to a regular state (such as Dynamax becoming the normal version) or blocking the Transformation explicitly as we have now. Just more fuel on the point being clarified

It is NOT sharing a trait everything else is using unless you are strictly referring to the 1-click Tera Button as the resource expended, you cannot in anyway produce a comparable "Kingambit-Stellar" with comparable changes to its stats or unique mechanical behaviors. This isn't "Terapagos + Stellar" ban, this is "Terapagos-Stellar as a specific form" in concept, it's not a complex clause in terms of phrasing or understand in its own case, and at least personally I'm not convinced of any slippery slope it opens the door for when we have precedent for tiering player-triggered-in-battle forms separately with Megas. Rayquaza only specifies the precedent for banning the Mega directly rather than a roundabout method that accomplishes the same like "Stone is banned, stone only matters for Mega Evolution anyway." Slippery slope of disabling the button "the tier's most egregious users" is a non-start because they use the button exactly the same as everything else, and are not inherently overpowered to a quickban degree when using the Terastal for the team; neither of these statements is true of Terapagos, with Terapagos-S being a very unique and specific transformation off the mechanic, and Terapagos-S being FAR more egregious and unhealthy than anything currently in OU or even being discussed for drop like Roaring Moon. The button being disabled is because it offers Terapagos exactly 1 option, is easily replicable on Software with our usual ruleset practices, that option is the one thing that makes it egregious, and the button enables a different form entirely rather than simply an addition to a kit that is fundamentally the same Pokemon otherwise. This also distinguishes it from something like Archaludon or Annihilape signature move talk, because Terapagos-S is a different Pokemon in multiple functional ways, rather than one piece of a kit that is considered unbalanced only when viewed holistically.

This is a pretty solid write-up with the Ditto stuff, ngl. It's basically the only reasoning I've seen in favour of a Terapagos unban that I find presents a legitimate argument on why Smogon's current stance on Terapagos is possibly not the right one even though I still lean toward disagreeing with it overall due to it arbitrarily deciding that one mon cannot Tera even though Terastal is meant to be a universal mechanic available to every mon on a team with this generation being built upon Terastal usage. If Terastal weren't a universal mechanic and moreso like Mega Evolution, which was limited, I'd 100% buy into your reasoning.
 
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This is a pretty solid write-up with the Ditto stuff, ngl. It's basically the only reasoning I've seen in favour of a Terapagos unban that I find presents a legitimate argument on why Smogon's current stance on Terapagos is possibly not the right one even though I still lean toward disagreeing with it overall due to it arbitrarily deciding that one mon cannot Tera even though Terastal is meant to be a universal mechanic available to every mon on a team with this generation being built upon Terastal usage. If Terastal weren't a universal mechanic and moreso like Mega Evolution, which was limited, I'd 100% buy into your reasoning.
given the numerous major mechanical differences between pressing the Tera button on Terapagos and literally every other mon, is your real problem what the button says? Shouldn’t the analysis be on what the button does? If Nintendo released a patch that relabelled Terapagos’ button to “Starstorm” would your feelings be different? If so, why? You keep saying it’s a universal mechanic but it isn’t. For this one particular mon, the mechanic is unique. Function here surely is the relevant issue, not form?
 
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This is a pretty solid write-up with the Ditto stuff, ngl. It's basically the only reasoning I've seen in favour of a Terapagos unban that I find presents a legitimate argument on why Smogon's current stance on Terapagos is possibly not the right one even though I still lean toward disagreeing with it overall due to it arbitrarily deciding that one mon cannot Tera even though Terastal is meant to be a universal mechanic available to every mon on a team with this generation being built upon Terastal usage. If Terastal weren't a universal mechanic and moreso like Mega Evolution, which was limited, I'd 100% buy into your reasoning.
The anti-unban side uses the word "arbitrary" a little too much. We all know there is a very clear distinction between how tera works for Terapagos and how it works for your average mon. I think it's disingenuous to pretend this is the same as banning tera on volc.

Anyway, I would like to see council members who oppose this unban address some of the arguments made here. The original thread https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-tiering-of-terapagos-stellar.3732775/ honestly had pretty unsatisfactory reasoning.
 
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Reading back the thread grinded my gears a bit because it seems to miss the actual spirit of the argument in favor of the letter of the tiering policy, and said letter was given by a different translator for every speaker.

If I can be succinct with my point from all the rambles: Terapagos-S being tiered separately is fundamentally no different than tiering Megas separately (by BL if not by individualized usage). Arguments in favor of banning Terapagos as an entire entity are either being willfully stubborn (EX: Dismissing the Mega Ray precedent because Ubers tiers "differently" rather than addressing why the principle is unacceptable), or clinging too close to a tiering policy that is in the most literal sense outdated, as in its fundamentals pre-date a lot of Pokemon's current design ethos and even a lot of cases handled thus far are very Round Peg -> Square Hole that we've just pushed through because the pegs were small enough.
 
The anti-unban side uses the word "arbitrary" a little too much. We all know there is a very clear distinction between how tera works for Terapagos and how it works for your average mon. I think it's disingenuous to pretend this is the same as banning tera on volc.

Anyway, I would like to see council members who oppose this unban address some of the arguments made here. The original thread https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-tiering-of-terapagos-stellar.3732775/ honestly had pretty unsatisfactory reasoning.
Unfortunately the council don't seem to want to address the current discussion about Terapagos in this thread, but nor have they tried to shut it down, which makes me think they're probably hoping it will all eventually blow over and people will move on.

I very much agree that I would like to see someone from the council address pika pal's Ditto comparison, which I think is one of the best and most rigorous explanation of why Terapagos-Stellar is not simply 'Terapagos-Terastal uses Tera Stellar' but a unique forme change mechanic. If Terapagos-Stellar was called Mega Terapagos instead and the button was labelled 'Mega' instead of 'Tera', somehow I think base form Terapagos would be legal while Mega Terapagos was banned, even if there was no mega stone required. Terapagos's form change is undoubtedly much more similar to a Mega (and weird stuff like Zygarde-Complete) than it is to Tera, at least mechanically. It doesn't matter what the button is called, it matters what the button does.
 
Unfortunately the council don't seem to want to address the current discussion about Terapagos in this thread, but nor have they tried to shut it down, which makes me think they're probably hoping it will all eventually blow over and people will move on.
I hope this doesn't "blow over". I think more than any other suspect (unban or ban) this is the one that I want the most. It is a proven balanced pokemon in National Dex (tbf that is a very different tier but not different enough to make Terapagos unhealthy/broken), it has great offensive and defensive tools, and its ability is really great in a tier plagued by pokemon that make switching without pivot moves. If we find out that the mon is actually secretly broken somehow (tbf it could be because of calm mind sets but Cresselia exists so I doubt it) then we will find out during the suspect, should that happen. If anything we should be voicing this louder (but not too loud please don't be having huge arguments over this or something worse) because change only really comes when the player base wants it. This is true even without surveys and was proven with the tera blast suspect.


Reading both of these posts made me remember that Terapagos can't actually tera into any type besides stellar which does raise an unfortunate dilemma. If Terapagos were unbanned on the condition that it can't tera and everything else can wouldn't that be unfair? The main difference between this and Mega Rayquaza is that with the latter, it was the only pokemon that could mega evolve in that way and even if that wasn't true, not every pokemon can mega evolve. On the contrary, everything that is legal in OU can tera while Terapagos wouldn't be allowed to due to its only tera type being banned. So the real question is if Terapagos has an unfair disadvantage, does it matter? Do we care if one pokemon can't tera but everything else can? I think there are enough advantages to dropping Terapagos that it doesn't matter, at least imo. However, this is a question that must be answered first before we even think about discussing the actual logistics.
Also I made this post a while ago. Please ignore it. I didn't take into account that since it already can't tera into anything besides stellar it is effectively a mega without a mega stone (similar to a certain Mega Rayquaza we all know).
 
Unfortunately the council don't seem to want to address the current discussion about Terapagos in this thread, but nor have they tried to shut it down, which makes me think they're probably hoping it will all eventually blow over and people will move on.

I very much agree that I would like to see someone from the council address pika pal's Ditto comparison, which I think is one of the best and most rigorous explanation of why Terapagos-Stellar is not simply 'Terapagos-Terastal uses Tera Stellar' but a unique forme change mechanic. If Terapagos-Stellar was called Mega Terapagos instead and the button was labelled 'Mega' instead of 'Tera', somehow I think base form Terapagos would be legal while Mega Terapagos was banned, even if there was no mega stone required. Terapagos's form change is undoubtedly much more similar to a Mega (and weird stuff like Zygarde-Complete) than it is to Tera, at least mechanically. It doesn't matter what the button is called, it matters what the button does.
Yeah even if the council wanted to free it (Which i'm all for a terapagos clause honestly), I am pretty sure doing so would require tiering policy changes or something along those lines if I remember right. So honestly if this discussion keeps going, this could end up leading to some policy review thread maybe?

I don't know, but the fact this discussion has been allowed to keep going is definitely interesting, so who knows honestly.
 
I feel like it shouldn’t have to be this complicated. The powers that be could just make a collective decision to say that OU turtle is fine, and Tera turtle is too much and own that decision. Make it function that way, and just say ‘deal with it’. The clauses and terminology and technicality of the decision is exhausting. Maintain the democratic parts of this simulator for everything else with suspects and votes and all that but I feel like there should be liberties available to the leadership of this fanmade project (showdown) to make decisions occasionally that don’t require community approval and just own the outcome, pushback, etc. ESPECIALLY this late in a generation where the negative fallout from those who don’t approve would (to me) be minimal.

Just my 2 cents.
 
Haunter seeing use in tournaments is cool. Tera Steel + Levitate is just such a potent combo in general & the Pokemon itself is notably is immune to 3 / 4 moves great tusk will commonly run, as well as largely being immune to most of standard Ting-lu's kit. After pivoting in, it can really annoy the opponent with its wide utility movepool which has options like Toxic, Wisp, Encore, etc.

Another Mon that could be underrated for similar reasons is mismagius. I always find this Pokemon a pain to switch into because of Wisp + Hex and it too has the potent combination of Levitate + being a Ghost type to grant it multiple immunities against many of the top Pokemon.
 
Haunter seeing use in tournaments is cool. Tera Steel + Levitate is just such a potent combo in general & the Pokemon itself is notably is immune to 3 / 4 moves great tusk will commonly run, as well as largely being immune to most of standard Ting-lu's kit. After pivoting in, it can really annoy the opponent with its wide utility movepool which has options like Toxic, Wisp, Encore, etc.
Yeah I think Haunter could be useful for Levitate + Tera Steel shenanigans. There's almost no reason to use it over other Ghost-types like Gholdengo because yeah It's way too way frail even with Eviolite. I just actually kinda wished its evolution keeped levitate. I think gengy would be better with levitate, but still bad (no reason to use it over ghold). Toxic and Wisp is a combo though, with encore messing up defensive mons.

Another Mon that could be underrated for similar reasons is mismagius. I always find this Pokemon a pain to switch into because of Wisp + Hex and it too has the potent combination of Levitate + being a Ghost type to grant it multiple immunities against many of the top Pokemon.
missy is really underrated! I like the combination of nasty plot + tera fairy draining kiss alongside levitate. She's basically kinda like gengar if it kept said ability. 105 SpA ain't that bad too with wisp + hex imo. Tera Steel + Levitate is a great combo with 2 weaknesses + many resistances; I personally liked substitute nasty plot shadow ball draining kiss with leftovers and tera fairy. I think it is underexplored.
 
Unfortunately the council don't seem to want to address the current discussion about Terapagos in this thread, but nor have they tried to shut it down, which makes me think they're probably hoping it will all eventually blow over and people will move on.
We are discussing it. We don't know how tiering leads will decide on it, but if it was a complete non-option or if we didn't want to entertain the idea of freeing Terapagos then we should have shut discussion down by now. I think it would at the minimum need a PR thread before an actual test, but feel free to keep discussing in the mean time.
 
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