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Ever since the release of Pokémon Gold & Silver, the core series games have featured a pair of Legendary Pokémon as the so-called “mascots” of the games. As a general of thumb, these pairs of Legendary Pokémon are supposed to be pretty well balanced between the two of them with one not being overwhelmingly stronger than the other.
The keywords in that sentence are “supposed to”.
In the beginning, something like the in-game and/or competitive viability of a Pokémon wasn’t as big of a focal marketing or advertisement point for a new Pokémon as it is nowadays. However, that just makes the modern-day cases where the mascot duos do feel unbalanced only feel like even more of an outlier, at least to me. I came up with this thread idea when examining just how wide the disparity between Zacian and Zamazenta actually is, and I feel like even someone playing Pokémon for the first time at the ripe age of 10 can tell you that they might have gone just a little bit overboard with Zacian’s advantages over its counterpart.
This is a shorter OP than most of the ones I write, which I’m plenty happy with. I feel like the topic of this thread is pretty self explanatory, as is how these pairs of Pokémon can be examined. The one thing I will say before wrapping this up is that which one of the two is “better” can absolutely change with the release of upper versions, sequels and remakes, so I have started looking into that too. Feel free to discuss your thoughts in this thread, and happy posting!
My Personal Rankings, if anyone is curious; from least to most balanced
I may not want to put Paldea (Koraidon + Miraidon) on second place, since Miraidon has a similar case for Kyogre of having STAB on top of the Terrain-summoning Ability (Electric Terrain) in Hadron Engine and get Super STAB when Terastalzied into Electric. Koraidon doesn’t benefit as much in the form of Orichalcum Pulse summoning sun, which like base form Groudon, doesn’t have STAB on Fire without Terastalizing into Fire.
I do overall agree with your personal rankings, especially with Galar.
I may not want to put Paldea (Koraidon + Miraidon) on second place, since Miraidon has a similar case for Kyogre of having STAB on top of the Terrain-summoning Ability (Electric Terrain) in Hadron Engine and get Super STAB when Terastalzied into Electric. Koraidon doesn’t benefit as much in the form of Orichalcum Pulse summoning sun, which like base form Groudon, doesn’t have STAB on Fire without Terastalizing into Fire.
I do overall agree with your personal rankings, especially with Galar.
That might depend on what one considers overpowered or balanced on an individual vs widespread basis. Also things like across their history or specifically in their debut generation (Dialga and Palkia shift in viability across gens, Yveltal fluctuates while Xerneas is consistently good, Ho-oh shooting up MASSIVELY with Gen 4's split and Brave Bird + Gen 5's Regenerator, etc)
Miraidon is the stronger single mon, but Koraidon's "3 STAB" coverage proves very versatile, and there's a case that being/supporting Sun is a more significant niche than Electric Terrain, whether in Singles (where a lot of Past Paradoxes are big vs the number of Future) or Doubles (Rilla and Psychic Terrain teams have a lot of means to interrupt it). Groudon obviously loses 1v1 to Kyogre and isn't as nuclear on output, but even exempting the Primal forms, Groudon tends to rank very highly in Uber/Restricted formats because it's still very strong on a Meta scale for Sun and its stats.
Kalos is also unbalanced as noted but it's interesting to observe how Yveltal has progressively found greater usage over the Generations in singles, to the point of being a borderline mandatory inclusion in Gen 8 and ranking ABOVE Xerneas because it does so much work into that Meta despite being less nuclear on paper.
That might depend on what one considers overpowered or balanced on an individual vs widespread basis. Also things like across their history or specifically in their debut generation (Dialga and Palkia shift in viability across gens, Yveltal fluctuates while Xerneas is consistently good, Ho-oh shooting up MASSIVELY with Gen 4's split and Brave Bird + Gen 5's Regenerator, etc)
Miraidon is the stronger single mon, but Koraidon's "3 STAB" coverage proves very versatile, and there's a case that being/supporting Sun is a more significant niche than Electric Terrain, whether in Singles (where a lot of Past Paradoxes are big vs the number of Future) or Doubles (Rilla and Psychic Terrain teams have a lot of means to interrupt it). Groudon obviously loses 1v1 to Kyogre and isn't as nuclear on output, but even exempting the Primal forms, Groudon tends to rank very highly in Uber/Restricted formats because it's still very strong on a Meta scale for Sun and its stats.
Kalos is also unbalanced as noted but it's interesting to observe how Yveltal has progressively found greater usage over the Generations in singles, to the point of being a borderline mandatory inclusion in Gen 8 and ranking ABOVE Xerneas because it does so much work into that Meta despite being less nuclear on paper.
It did help (or not, for those who hates VGC) that Koraidon and Miraidon did have VGC in mind, with the former nowhere as nuclear in a single STAB but more versatile, while Miraidon have a super-boosted Electric STAB but turned out Electric Terrain is, indeed, more manageable in VGC with Rillaboom and the Psychic Terrain setters in mind so Miraidon’s self SpA boost is not as frequent as one would think if you to plan ahead. So while one may have an edge, I did forget that Koraidon (and Groudon) aren’t hopelessly overshadowed like Zamazenta was back in Gen 8.
It also helped both Koraidon and Miraidon aren’t obnoxiously overpowered to deal with, unlike the Calyrex rider forms which just go for “sweep and win” and Urshifu which ignores Protect and has a always crit STAB making it a pain to deal with.
Miraidon is the stronger single mon, but Koraidon's "3 STAB" coverage proves very versatile, and there's a case that being/supporting Sun is a more significant niche than Electric Terrain, whether in Singles (where a lot of Past Paradoxes are big vs the number of Future) or Doubles (Rilla and Psychic Terrain teams have a lot of means to interrupt it).
Frankly even in VGC the Past Paradoxes are overall better than Future Paradoxes. Helps that Past Pardoxes can actually use Protosynthesis consistently outside of Restricted formats thanks to good Drought options, unlike their counterparts who have to rely on Pincurchin for Electric Surge. (Maybe if we get a format with both Paradoxes and Megas legal that could change thanks to Raichu X, or if we get Tapu Koko back.) The most noteworthy Future Paradox in VGC is Iron Hands, and it's kind of the hard carry of the group thanks to how splashable it is lol.
Being a genuine Electric-type fatmon helped a lot for it, alongside access to Fake Out, Swords Dance and the like. I can only imagine how dangerous it would be in formats where a viable Electric Surge user is on the run, though for same reason with Miraidon, Electric Terrain is easier to get rid off with how ubiquitous Rillaboom is.
Ho-oh v Lugia
Groudon v Kyogre
Dialga v Palkia
Zekrom v Reshiram
Kyurem-B v Kyurem W
Xerneas v Yveltal
Primal Groudon v Primal Kyogre
Solgaleo v Lunala
Dawn Wings v Dusk Mane
Zacian v Zamazenta
Dialga Origin v Palkia Origin
Koraidon v Miraidon
I don't think ranking these is really necessary, there's basically 2 groups. "Mostly balanced" vs "Obvious winner". Sure, sometimes meta shifts or mechanics change and that changes the lead, but in general, I don't think excess precision is a virtue here. So, some explanations:
Ho-oh v Lugia : I'd call them fair? Lugia won any fight easily enough, but Ho-oh was arguably better in meta. I'm inclined to say Lugia was better in-game, due to coverage and having a usable Flying STAB, but we're splitting hairs, they're balanced enough.
Dialga v Palkia : They've shifted over the years, but arguably nearly balanced. One or the other might be better any given gen, but that says more about the gens than the mons.
Zekrom v Reshiram : Probably balanced? In-game, both are box legends with solid tools, in competitive, they're both meta-dependent.
Dialga Origin v Palkia Origin : I have no clue about these two.
Koraidon v Miraidon : I'd argue balanced. They're both designed as team-support, which makes them meta dependent, and they support their team in different ways, which was a balancing risk, but I think they pulled it off and both are reasonably similar in basically all settings, even if there's some degrees of difference.
Groudon v Kyogre : There were ways for Groudon to outplay Kyogre, the underspeed is important in weather wars, but LBR Kyogre won every time and also Rain is a better archetype than Sun in nearly every generation and ruleset.
Kyurem-B v Kyurem W: W stays winning. B has finally caught up, after literally a decade of no good Ice STAB, but let's be real, B was OU for a reason. Xerneas v Yveltal : Yveltal isn't terrible, and has seen an upswing at various points, but Xerneas is a scary threat in a way the bird isn't. Primal Groudon v Primal Kyogre : A rare reversal. The underspeed here is vital, since Kyogre cannot touch Groudon with Sun up. Both are devastating monsters if the other one is removed from play, but land comes out on top in the matchup, which leaves Kyogre MUCH less useful.
Solgaleo v Lunala : Lunala just gets everything it wants. Songaleo is great, but Lunala is a bigger threat in competitive and has better options in-game. This feels meta-dependent, but it's held true for a while so maybe not.
Dawn Wings v Dusk Mane : Maybe reversals aren't that rare. Turns out a massive speed boost and OP Z-Move can solve a bunch of problems, and the base form's advantages were suddenly a lot more relevant than Lunala's advantages. I don't think the in-game differences are worth talking about, it's a box legendary super form, who cares? Zacian v Zamazenta : Probably the reason this thread was made, Zamazenta is just SO BAD compared to his brother, and even the nerf doesn't help, since it was applied to both of them. GF does not understand that bulk is less useful than offense.
So, with the exception of SV, we haven't had a balanced duo since original Black/White? OOF. And I don't think these are me being particular, either, most of these matchups were fairly obvious which was better in some key way. That's not what I would have expected looking at the concept for this thread, either.
(Not me finding a spelling error in the title of my own thread)
When I was writing the OP for this thread, I was thinking pretty heavily about a couple of things. What would I count for my own rankings, and what would I consider the most important criteria for something like this? So here are my opinions that nobody asked for :) winners will be in bold, by the way.
Lugia Vs. Ho-Oh
Kyogre Vs. Groudon
Dialga Vs. Palkia
Lugia Vs. Ho-Oh (Remakes Onward, for the sake of consistency with other generations)
Reshiram Vs. Zekrom
Black Kyurem Vs. White Kyurem
Xerneas Vs. Yveltal
Primal Kyogre Vs. Primal Groudon
Solgaleo Vs. Lunala
Dusk Mane Necrozma Vs. Dawn Wings Necrozma
Zacian Vs. Zamazenta
Single Strike Urshifu Vs. Rapid Strike Urshifu
Origin Forme Dialga Vs. Origin Forme Palkia
Koraidon Vs. Miraidon
Hearthflame Mask Ogerpon > the other ones because it gets the best type synergy and stat boost when Terastalized
Honestly my list looks way different XD it is mostly slanted by singles and not vgc, and also not much in-game because none of these are bad in game really, but I'd say, least to most balanced:
8. Galar yeah, zacian is miles ahead, and calyrex shadow is also miles ahead. It's kind of sad ngl.
7. Alola, its a weird case since Lunala is well ahead of Solgaleo, but Dusk Mane is well ahead of Dawn Wings. Still, it's quite polarized.
6. Unova, this is where you did lose me a bit, Zekrom was at least something in some generations and has always been miles ahead of Reshiram. Even in game Zekrom feels a lot better to actually use, because it generally has more useful moves beyond its stabs. Kyurem fused was never really much to me anyways, though that's also polarized seeing one is in OU lol, and in game I'd rather just have zekrom/reshiram than kyurem-b or kyurem-w.
5. Johto, this is also where you lost me a bit more. When has Lugia ever been better than Ho-oh, at least in an ubers sense? In-game both are beasts anyways, though Ho-Oh is way better in hgss lol.
4. Kalos, its also an odd cause because gen 8 saw yveltal really good (albeit you could argue that's partially more tiering decisions than anything).
3. Sinnoh, they're usually all kind of weak minus Giratina. In game they do their usual things, albeit Palkia having Surf as STAB is convenient to free a slot up on Bibarel.
2. Hoenn, all three are usually at least moderately good and usually are top tiers. Borderline overtuned, except Primal Groudon I'd argue is overtuned (though not banworthy).
1. Paldea, both are overtuned titans, ogerpon and terapagos are what they are and not exclusives.
now in terms of designs... that's a different story XD
5. Johto, this is also where you lost me a bit more. When has Lugia ever been better than Ho-oh, at least in an ubers sense? In-game both are beasts anyways, though Ho-Oh is way better in hgss lol.
There's been a case for Gen 3 at least, before Ho-oh had reliable Phys STAB (narrowed its power advantage for stat "parity" with Lugia on defense), the Base 90 tier was more crowded among the relevant mons, and a lot of the Kyogre plus anti-Kyogre tech also troubled it (Rain/Surf, Electric attacks to snipe it, Dragons for resistance) if Groudon didn't control the weather war.
Gen 4, despite Stealth Rock, did it big favors with the Phys Special Split to buff Sacred Fire, plus giving it access to Brave Bird. I think there's a case to be made that Gen 4 equalized their viability even before Regenerator in Gen 5, which DEFINITELY benefits Ho-oh more than Multiscale does Lugia (which was still very significant for it, but damn)
There's been a case for Gen 3 at least, before Ho-oh had reliable Phys STAB (narrowed its power advantage for stat "parity" with Lugia on defense), the Base 90 tier was more crowded among the relevant mons, and a lot of the Kyogre plus anti-Kyogre tech also troubled it (Rain/Surf, Electric attacks to snipe it, Dragons for resistance) if Groudon didn't control the weather war.
Gen 4, despite Stealth Rock, did it big favors with the Phys Special Split to buff Sacred Fire, plus giving it access to Brave Bird. I think there's a case to be made that Gen 4 equalized their viability even before Regenerator in Gen 5, which DEFINITELY benefits Ho-oh more than Multiscale does Lugia (which was still very significant for it, but damn)
I mean I'd agree on a surface level but then Ho-oh is ranked above Lugia in the current ADV Ubers PR and for good reason, it's a more offensive meta that Ho-oh has an easier time finding its niche in especially since what Lugia would normally wall can exploit it. Gen 4 Ubers neither is terribly great anyways. If anything Gen 2 is likely the best case where they are ranked the same and their roles are almost reversed (with ho oh taking the wall role and lugia being akin to a very defensive wincon). If it weren't for that I'd honestly have ranked it lower than Unova's, since modern gens feature Ho-oh being decent at least and Lugia being one of the worst box legendaries available. lugia in sv ou when???
In regards to the ongoing Lugia Vs. Ho-Oh conversation, I still believe Lugia is slightly better overall than Ho-Oh if we’re looking at both Gen 2 on its own and looking at Gens 2 and 3 as their own collective unit. They’re both very solid Legendaries in their own right, but I feel the need to express that there was a time in Gen 2’s history when Ho-Oh was actively being considered a bad Legendary, or at least in consideration for standard play. In more recent years this generally isn’t seen as true anymore, but Scared Fire was arguably the weakest it’s ever been and Aeroblast adds more to Lugia’s kit than Sacred Fire adds for Ho-Oh.
The other thing I feel like makes Lugia somewhat underrated, particularly in Gen 3, is how its combination of defensive stats and Speed can help it fire off more attacks over the course of a game than Ho-Oh might be able to. Base 110 is a solid Speed tier in Gen 3 and especially Gen 2, tying Latios and Latias and outspeeding the base 90s, 95s and 100s commonly associated with the era. By comparison, Ho-Oh’s lower Speed and physical Defense means a lot of its success can be heavily dependent on Sacred Fire burns and how many opportunities it gets to actually use its higher offenses. It is true that Psychic/Flying has its issues in both generations, but Ghost coverage via Shadow Ball is usually pretty simple to see coming and thus react to accordingly. Bulky Normal-Types in particular are more easily able to hold Lum Berry than they can in OU due to the weather environment of Ubers, which can further assist in the anti-Ho-oh effort seeing as Ho-Oh can be a strong check to offensively minded Lugia sets.
Honestly, I think if you can make the argument for either one to be in the lead, particularly in the debut gen, it's probably a balanced duo. Lugia and Ho-oh, there's a debate, and I think that's as close as it can get. Compare to Kyogre v Groudon, or Kyu-W v Kyu-B, where everyone knows which of them is the scariest to see on the opposing team.
I think more than looking at balance strictly I think it's fun to look at the quality of the dynamic.
Ho-oh and Lugia are decently balanced, they're both purposefully unoptimized defensive stat blobs with wide tool kits. Neither aged particularly well in that role, with the Phys/Spec Split and Brave Bird completely overhauling Ho-oh's gameplay function (look at a Gen 3 Ho-oh set sometime seriously) and Lugia just being rendered completely inert. But they are pretty close to having no direct interactions with one another, their typings do not interact whatsoever and the closest thing they have to a mechanical interaction in their optimized kits is Sacred Fire burns nullifying Multiscale. Essentially, they are fairly well balanced but produce no interactions between them. They have no dynamics to explore. Even in the games where they are both strong, the biggest thing that happens is that their shared weakness (Electric) and immunity (Ground) are impacted as offensive types in the metagame. That's about it.
Kyogre and Groudon meanwhile are pretty clearly unbalanced on the face of it, Rain boosting Water moves that are already super effective in contrast with Sun which only acts as slight dampener to Kyogre's power makes the direct head-to-head unbalanced. But at the same time, I think the duo's dynamic is extremely intriguing because of just how widely Drizzle and Drought reach. Permanent Rain and Sun famously enabled a wide cast of niche partners and counters for the two between the Swift Swim and Chlorophyll users, randomly strong Water and Fire type coverage attacks or Thunders / Solar Beams, the persistent theme between them of strong Dragons as defensive counterplay, and other smaller effects of weather. And it gets kind of overshadowed / underexplored in the modern framework of strictly deviated constructed formats and established metagames, but the head-to-head between Sun and Rain teams as they were in Generation 3 was not nearly as unbalanced as the head-to-head between their weather setting titans is with how dangerous bulky Chlorophyll Grass types can be to the army of Water types. Even just thinking about their direct one-on-one matchup is complicated given their tied base Speed stats and the weather advantage that comes from being slower. There is imbalance with these two, but they introduce so much to the game by their mere presence that they warp the game around them in such a way that both feel dramatic and powerful. And crucially, unlike pretty much every other pairing, they have a blatant anti-synergy with one another, not just insofar as their traits work with one another in a metagame context or because they stack defensive qualities (they actually have fantastic defensive synergy with one another when looking at typing and stats alone) but because they prevent each other from utilizing some of their potential team based synergies. In my mind, Kyogre and Groudon represent the gold standard for a dynamic between a Legendary Duo.
Koraidon and Miraidon directly reflect this dynamic in many ways and are definitely the closest to the standard in my mind, but I don't like them as much because both of them have so much sheer offense that it just overpowers their entire dynamic. Where Kyogre and Groudon will just as often compete to be slower than the other as faster to gain weather control, because Sun and Electric Terrain are not mutually exclusive and the two are both offensive Dragon types with the capacity to effortlessly annihilate each other and themselves, they railroad each other into the honing power and speed. It doesn't help that the practical mechanics of Protosynthesis and Quark Drive lead to the exact same optimization at least 95% of the time. (Brute Bonnet and Scream Tail are the only two I can think of that will purposely use a Defense / SpDef boost sometimes) Their dynamics with Tera are undeniably pretty cool though.
...Primal Kyogre and Primal Groudon. My two least favorite Pokemon in the entire franchise. It's impressive and frustrating in equal measure how these two present a funhouse mirror reflection of the dynamics of the originals that exaggerate and warp them into less than a ghost of what they were before. Primordial Sea and Desolate Land are some of the worst mechanics ever introduced to the game. We've taken Weather, a unique field condition, which is fun because it creates dynamics in gameplay due to conflicting synergies and anti-synergies, and we've created a new Weather that creates even sharper gameplay dynamics, (with the full immunity to all Fire / Water damage thing) stamps out all other forms of weather as a Super Weather to completely remove any dynamics with Sand or Hail/Snow or any use of moves dedicated to changing Weather, and on top of all that have created a complete lack of usable Synergy because the field effect persists with the Pokemon in question. Think about it; the Primal Weather being directly tied to current field presence means that any synergy which relies on them is restricted to a specific 2 Pokemon combo in Doubles or is completely unusable in Singles. Groudon and Kyogre enabled a great many Pokemon to explore their potential in an environment / context where Weather was uniquely present and permanent, while in practice the Primal Duo enforce a strictly weatherless Status Quo where they pop in and out completely disrupting the potential existence of any other Weather synergies, with the actual impact of the field condition mostly just applying to the Offensive and Defensive qualities as pertains to each of them specifically. Previously Chlorophyll and Swift Swim could be sincerely useful traits against Groudon and Kyogre respectively, using their own weather as benefits to the Pokemon's own advantage. That kind of thing just doesn't happen with the Primal Weathers. Imagine talking with somebody about a stronger Kyogre and Groudon that are going to come out in Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire and saying "Oh, actually, Swift Swim and Chlorophyll will both be completely and utterly useless because of the new Kyogre and Groudon forms" - none of this is even mentioning Rayquaza or Dragons or anything, just how bafflingly buffoonish these two are! And on top of all this, the two have the audacity to be some of the absolute worst implementation of Mega Evolution as a mechanic that is possible, or if you really want to argue it they are just the most impressive bastardization of Mega Evolution's mechanical potential. All of Mega Evolution's inherent constraints, needing to spend a turn to Mega Evolve, needing to manually time your Mega Evolution, and only having one Mega Evolution per team, don't apply to Primal Reversion. So these are just two of the most absurdly overstated monsters in the entire game, and combined with the standards around OU / Ubers and Standard / Restricted formats, any context in which Kyogre and Groudon are considered will also have the Primals in the conversation as well, their mechanical legality willing, and Primal Groudon will completely outclass and outmuscle every other Weather thing in a given format to the point of functional extinction. Their actual stat lines and gameplay roles are almost an afterthought in my mind honestly, the Primal Weather is just such a big deal and such a game spoilingly awful inclusion by itself that their gameplay complexities in practice just can't compensate for them. They're utter dumpster fires that should never have seen the light of day.
The rest of the Legendary Duos just... don't do very much for me. Reshiram and Zekrom are funny because they're supposed to complete each other Fusion Dance style and yet are so utterly anti-synergistic that they never pull it off. Solgaleo and Lunala are the coolest duo as individual Pokemon. Yveltal is neat.
Extremely niche complaint for an extremely small group but there is (was? I might be shadow boxing with stale air with this entire paragraph) a fairly common trend among folks making custom formats on Showdown with modifications to existing Pokemon to give them Primal Weather as a part of their kit, which usually just meant giving something Desolate Land. The combined traits of a Water immunity, a bonus to Fire damage, and a functional Weather Clear are pretty unique, and in these formats they are specifically trying not to create the impact Pokemon with Drought would have, creating whole new team archetypes via enabling full weather teams out of thin air. It's a mechanic that combines these traits while also being something that technically exists so there isn't a need to create new verbage or write custom code or whatever, yadda yadda, point is
IT SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCKS
I can ill think of another ability that more directly spells out a lack of foresight in its inclusion like this, introducing a viable Pokemon with Primal Weather into a metagame is taking a sledgehammer to the potential existence of any Weather team while introducing a mediocre / barely viable Pokemon with Primal Weather has just created the world's single most obnoxious possible matchup roadblock. I instantly reject custom formats that do this.
Kyogre and Groudon meanwhile are pretty clearly unbalanced on the face of it, Rain boosting Water moves that are already super effective in contrast with Sun which only acts as slight dampener to Kyogre's power makes the direct head-to-head unbalanced. But at the same time, I think the duo's dynamic is extremely intriguing because of just how widely Drizzle and Drought reach. Permanent Rain and Sun famously enabled a wide cast of niche partners and counters for the two between the Swift Swim and Chlorophyll users, randomly strong Water and Fire type coverage attacks or Thunders / Solar Beams, the persistent theme between them of strong Dragons as defensive counterplay, and other smaller effects of weather. And it gets kind of overshadowed / underexplored in the modern framework of strictly deviated constructed formats and established metagames, but the head-to-head between Sun and Rain teams as they were in Generation 3 was not nearly as unbalanced as the head-to-head between their weather setting titans is with how dangerous bulky Chlorophyll Grass types can be to the army of Water types. Even just thinking about their direct one-on-one matchup is complicated given their tied base Speed stats and the weather advantage that comes from being slower. There is imbalance with these two, but they introduce so much to the game by their mere presence that they warp the game around them in such a way that both feel dramatic and powerful. And crucially, unlike pretty much every other pairing, they have a blatant anti-synergy with one another, not just insofar as their traits work with one another in a metagame context or because they stack defensive qualities (they actually have fantastic defensive synergy with one another when looking at typing and stats alone) but because they prevent each other from utilizing some of their potential team based synergies. In my mind, Kyogre and Groudon represent the gold standard for a dynamic between a Legendary Duo.
I think it's kind of fascinating how whoever the best is between Kyogre and Groudon is entirely dependent on whether the format is singles or doubles. Kyogre is the clear winner in singles because it's easier for it to be selfish there and 1v1s against its counterpart (which it typically wins) are more likely, while Groudon is better in doubles because it's far, far more flexible to use in terms of teambuilding and harder to shut down.
I think it's kind of fascinating how whoever the best is between Kyogre and Groudon is entirely dependent on whether the format is singles or doubles. Kyogre is the clear winner in singles because it's easier for it to be selfish there and 1v1s against its counterpart (which it typically wins) are more likely, while Groudon is better in doubles because it's far, far more flexible to use in terms of teambuilding and harder to shut down.
This. I also think it’s generation dependent to some extent- in the first three generations they were around I would argue Kyogre was one of the best Pokémon outright in Singles but as soon as the Primals came along, Groudon was the one seeing super high usage. And then in Generations 8 and 9, Kyogre reclaimed its position over Groudon due to Kyogre synergizing better with the meta and Koraidon also being added as another sun setter in the latter generation. Gen 8 fans will probably remember the term “Sword Fish”, referring to the combination of Zacian-Crowned and Kyogre’s Special stats and Drizzle support. Thing is, that wasn’t the only archetype Kyogre was frequently seen on at the time… in Singles.
Like you mentioned, Doubles is where things get really interesting. Koraidon’s success in Gen 9 does skew the results a little bit, but from Gens 3 through 8, Groudon was arguably the main catalyst behind several Pokémon being more successful than they already were, and I would argue that Primal Groudon being around in VGC actually made Xerneas stronger despite on paper looking like the kind of Fairy resist that would help play against it. In any case, being a Ground-Type that can set harsh sunlight on the field has a lot of team building applications while also being more synergistic as a Doubles win condition on its own accord. Kyogre’s game plan often comes down to “Water spam go brrr”, and in more recent years I’ve even seen some players run Pelipper OVER Kyogre in restricted formats which says all I need to know.
