CAP 3 CAP 3 - Part 6 (Base Stat Total)

[Kingdrom]

Even though I hate the idea of a fire type Chlorophyll pokemon, Alaradon's BST spread is just too kick-ass to go against.

Speed: Medium

Btw Lord Gloom is completely right, we don't want to create an overcentralizing pokemon with a high BST, incredible typing, and an insane moveset. We were going in the wrong direction when we decided "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if we had a pokemon that hit everything STAB neutral". Not nearly as bad as Fire/Grass, but this beast has potential and we need to make sure we don't make him as broken as Heatran already is, maybe even more.

 

[Lord Gloom]

Also, Lord Gloom has warned us constantly that this Pokemon could easily become a monster. I would heed him, intelligent people, because from what I can predict (and, whether you know it or not, I have mastered the art of balance) he is probably right.

Thanks for the support. I know it might seem like I'm beating a dead horse here, but I'm honestly concerned about not only this Pokemon, but the mission of this project itself. If we end up churning out a Pokemon that destroys everything save a few select counters, what will we have accomplished? Isn't our goal to try to understand and expand the general size of the metagame, rather than see how good of a Pokemon we can make?

 

[User 12783]

I like Aldaron's Spread but I want like at least 70 Speed! I want this to out-speed Togekiss and Tyranitar at least. Also I think Tyraniboah might be a counter for this Pokemon as well.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Lord Gloom, you word are not on deaf ears. I understand what you talking and I support you. If you have any suggestion onto how to balance it out so it won't turn into a nightmare, then I'll be happy to listern.

 

[oinkmooblah]

580. Having no evolutions/preevolutions make it seem like it should be pretty good, like Snorlax. I think this is a cool spread for a special attacker and mixed defense:

HP: 80
Atk: 70
Def: 120
SAtk: 130
SDef: 90
Spd: 90

Slightly more defense because we have too many special attackers with higher special defense.

 

[Karrot]

Thanks for the support. I know it might seem like I'm beating a dead horse here, but I'm honestly concerned about not only this Pokemon, but the mission of this project itself. If we end up churning out a Pokemon that destroys everything save a few select counters, what will we have accomplished? Isn't our goal to try to understand and expand the general size of the metagame, rather than see how good of a Pokemon we can make?

No, you're not beating a dead horse. You'll probably have to say it a couple more times before people realize you are correct. The truth is, the general population have a hard time seeing the finer details, and bandwagon on anything that seems "cool" without a second thought.

To balance this Pokemon, I had mentioned earlier the possibly of making it compete with Tyranitar, which is one of the many reasons I really like Aldaron's spread.

 

[PK Thunder]

526-545 cuz its a respectable range :D

 

[Lord Gloom]

Lord Gloom, you word are not on deaf ears. I understand what you talking and I support you. If you have any suggestion onto how to balance it out so it won't turn into a nightmare, then I'll be happy to listern.

Good to hear, pal.

Well, this is something we can't really change at this time, but I think our first major error was making him Special Attack oriented. I respect what people voted for, but just looking at his typing, this already shows some massive strength. Making him so bulky on top of this just icing on the cake; add Chlorophyll and Sunny Day into the mix (not technically confirmed, but I would bet well that there are enough proponents for this to make it happen) and we have a volatile brew sitting in our laps.

Most of my qualms are with what ended up being voted for. I'm not demanding that you throw the plans out the window, but I hope we can get enough people to possibly reconsider some of their choices for a possible second vote. At the very least, I urge everyone to be incredibly cautious in the next few important stages in voting, namely BST and moveset.

 

[Grawl]

Just want to note, that the most popular designs right now don't really scream "Chlorophyll", so that might not be a problem.

 

[Lord Gloom]

No, you're not beating a dead horse. You'll probably have to say it a couple more times before people realize you are correct. The truth is, the general population have a hard time seeing the finer details, and bandwagon on anything that seems "cool" without a second thought.

To balance this Pokemon, I had mentioned earlier the possibly of making it compete with Tyranitar, which is one of the many reasons I really like Aldaron's spread.

Heh. I like the Tyranitar thought, but my primary concern is still that there are so very few possible counters presented, and what will be inevitably less when Chlorophyll is undoubtedly picked when we get to abilities. Hell, Togekiss would only be a soft counter at this stage, so the only true hard counter we have is Tyranitar, and, let's face it, that just isn't enough considering how much strength this guy is packing. Most Bulky Pokemon (at least any that I can think of off the top of my head) have such a solid typing, and considering that his main weakness (his low speed here) can be remedied so easily, well, it's downright worrying.

 

[Lord Gloom]

Just want to note, that the most popular designs right now don't really scream "Chlorophyll", so that might not be a problem.

Just because the design doesn't correlate perfectly doesn't mean no. I can almost guarantee you that if he ends up with Medium speed (which he should at this stage due to us not having any better ideas for counters than Tyranitar and Togekiss), he will assuredly have Chlorophyll voted for, and if it's not an immediate selection, a petition for it is sure to arise.

 

[Dane]

One of the easiest ways to limit his destructive potential is movepool syndrome, like Kingdra. Give him pretty much only STAB attacks (and other weak attacks that no one who's sane would use), then he has to rely on HP to cover one of three potential threat archetypes. Ice, Ground, or Rock, the latter of which covering more types but at less power.

 

[Karrot]

I had also proposed in the last topic that, instead of Chlorophyll, that this Pokemon could get Early Bird and Pressure to make use of its defensively powerful nature. Now that I think of it, Early Bird might be pushing it with such solid spreads we've been seeing, and that leaves Pressure. Another one that has crossed my mind is Battle Armor (inspired by Elagune's latest Wooden Dragon art), making this Pokemon immune to Critical Hits. Because we have already decided that we should stay away from stat boosts, I can see this as a reasonable choice.

Now, here's something interesting that I wanted to employ: let's give it only one ability. We already have a powerful Pokemon, and from the topics of late this Pokemon needs to serious balancing. My primary choices are Pressure and Battle Armor, now, as a single ability.

EDIT:

@ Dane: I honestly don't see this Pokemon getting any offensive moves aside from the selection of Fire moves, Grass moves, and Hidden Power. So, I think we have already covered that.

 

[Lord Gloom]

One of the easiest ways to limit his destructive potential is movepool syndrome, like Kingdra. Give him pretty much only STAB attacks (and other weak attacks that no one who's sane would use), then he has to rely on HP to cover one of three potential threat archetypes. Ice, Ground, or Rock, the latter of which covering more types but at less power.

The problem is that even with a tiny movepool, that's all he's going to need. Sunny Day/Fire Blast/Grass Move of choice/HP [Whatever] will destroy shit regardless.

 

[Dane]

@ Dane: I honestly don't see this Pokemon getting any offensive moves aside from the selection of Fire moves, Grass moves, and Hidden Power. So, I think we have already covered that.

I was just bringing it up because at one point people were talking about giving it Earth Power and such.

 

[Lord Gloom]

Well, Earth Power is unnecessary anyways. A 20 BP loss isn't horrible if you want to use HP [Ground].

 

[Aldaron]

Uhh no, lol, we aren't revoting haha.

This will be fine in terms of power so long as we don't give it Chlorophyll, and trust me, I have more than enough ammunition in line to ensure that we won't. I was a proponent of it before, but no longer.

The community's wish to make it bulky and special attacking removed that; I am entirely supporting something like Pressure, a more stall oriented ability, or even Flame Body (Magma Armor, I forget the one that causes Burns).

60 base Speed will also allow this to be possibly OHKOed by Choice Band Stone Edge from Max Attack Adamant Tyranitar if this is running 252 HP / 252 Def in my spread, that's why I'm emphasizing we keep it lowwww (no Chlorophyll)

Your initial points, btw, Lord Gloom, aren't really too relevant at the moment. They made two Pokemon that seem to be very good, just not necessarily broken.

There is no evidence supporting that either, so uhh, there really shouldn't be many concerns. If anything, they have brought more balance to the game, as the battles I view everyday on the CaP server tend to include many more "Stall" type variables (more Cresselia, Forretress, Tentacruel, Weezing) than the official server. Garchomp's use has gone down quite a bit, and Psychic / Shadow Ball usage has increased.

 

[Dane]

Uhh no, lol, we aren't revoting haha.

This will be fine in terms of power so long as we don't give it Chlorophyll, and trust me, I have more than enough ammunition in line to ensure that we won't. I was a proponent of it before, but no longer.

The community's wish to make it bulky and special attacking removed that; I am entirely supporting something like Pressure, a more stall oriented ability, or even Flame Body (Magma Armor, I forget the one that causes Burns).

Agreed. And it's Flame Body. Magma armor is anti-freeze, which seems rather silly. Not sure how much I like Pressure since it's so generic, but some sort of "bulk" ability in the same vein is good.

If anything, they have brought more balance to the game, as the battles I view everyday on the CaP server tend to include many more "Stall" type variables (more Cresselia, Forretress, Tentacruel, Weezing) than the official server. Garchomp's use has gone down quite a bit, and Psychic / Shadow Ball usage has increased.

I've also noticed a HUGE increase in the amount of entry hazards. Probably due to having a good Ghost Pokemon outside of Gengar.

 

[Karrot]

Flame Body causes burns, Magma Armor prevents freezing. (EDIT: I got beaten, lol.) They are both nice candidates. My favorite ability by a long run is Pressure, however. It should give this Pokemon a lot of flavor as a "stall" Pokemon.

I don't see why Pressure seems so generic. It is also, in my opinion, one of the best traits.

Also, what is everyone's standing on giving this Pokemon a sleep move? Or is it too early to discuss this?

 

[Lord Gloom]

Your initial points, btw, Lord Gloom, aren't really too relevant at the moment. They made two Pokemon that seem to be very good, just not necessarily broken.

Lost me here. Are you talking about when I was speaking of Revenankh? Because, if so, I wasn't implying that Revenankh (or even Scylant) were broken, just cautioning against going overboard since those two do have massive potential.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Flame Body, Battle Armor, Rock Head(for laughs and because of the wooden dragon), Flash Fire(another laugh maybe), Pressure(how'll that justifiable on most things I don't know), and maybe some other weird ability would help in our quest to make it balance.

Well, this is something we can't really change at this time, but I think our first major error was making him Special Attack oriented. I respect what people voted for, but just looking at his typing, this already shows some massive strength. Making him so bulky on top of this just icing on the cake; add Chlorophyll and Sunny Day into the mix (not technically confirmed, but I would bet well that there are enough proponents for this to make it happen) and we have a volatile brew sitting in our laps.

By the way everyone is now against Chlorophyll on this thing, I think we're safe. I don't want to take that ability out of the listing unless it truly need to.

Most of my qualms are with what ended up being voted for. I'm not demanding that you throw the plans out the window, but I hope we can get enough people to possibly reconsider some of their choices for a possible second vote. At the very least, I urge everyone to be incredibly cautious in the next few important stages in voting, namely BST and moveset.

There's still time for people to realized their mistake and/or reconsider their choices. Moveset would probably been heavily watched for any overpowering move or options for it and voted out.

 

[Aldaron]

I don't want it to have a Sleeping move, but that's just me. Deck Knight did mention the precedent for Fire times to have Earth Power, but I wouldn't want that either.

I really want to restrict things move pool to what is has in its STABs.

And yea, I was only referring to the Flame Body one , lol. The anti-freeze is unnecessary, I agree.

Pressure or that one would probably get my vote.

Have any of you (besides Karrot, cause I know he has) played ubers extensively? A bulky Pokemon with Pressure is VERY interesting, and ubers allows this strategy to work, and is more obvious than Spiritomb / Dusknoir.

EDIT: O, sorry Lord Gloom, I thought you were cautioning against overboard because of the previous two CaPs, not only because of this one.

 

[Blln]

I voted 526-545, which seems like just enough to make a very good, OU worthy pokemon. I'm also going to vote medium in regards to speed, although I'm hoping more specifically for the higher spectrum of medium like 80 or 85, because I think too low would leave too many stat points for other stats, and considering speed can be cured by Sunny Day, that might lead to it being a little overpowered. I think offense should definitely be emphasized over defense, because the type really does not lend itself much to defense. It has like 3 resistances, one of which is to steel, and a Stealth Rock weakness. The typing does give a few very good matchups, most notably I would say against Celebi and pretty much all electrics, but overall most of its defensive matchups come out to be pretty neutral, which is why I think this pokemon would be better off as a bulky attacker, rather than a somewhat offensive defender.

I'm still not exactly sure what I would like this pokemon to look like, but right now I'm thinking something along the lines of 70 / 90 / 80 / 110 / 100 / 80 (speed last), which brings it to a solid 535. That spread gives it bulky enough defenses to take a decent amount of hits and allow it to be a sort of a soft counter to a few specific threats, enough Special attack to be a very serious threat under the sun, enough attack that it can attempt to threaten Special walls with a double STAB physical Fire move I guess (kind of like raindance LO kingdra's waterfall), but not really enough attack to make full on mixed sweeping really viable. The speed I'm not too sure on, because we still don't know if it will have Chlorophyll or not, but 80 seems like a decent number, allowing it to outspeed slow stuff normally, and pretty much everything but Deoxys and Scarfgar in the sun if it gets chlorophyll

Ok so after looking at it, that seems a maybe a tiny bit too good, but then again this is a Stealth Rock weak pokemon with only two or three resistances (Grass, Electric, Steel, am I missing one?). Anyway, I'm not attempting to submit a set or anything, I'm just weighing in on the matter to hopefully give some people ideas.

Edit: Eh, after looking over most of the spreads presented so far, it looks like this pokemon is going to be alot like exeggutor, just alot better :/

 

[Hyra]

116 HP / 62 Atk / 94 Def / 98 SAtk / 76 SDef / 84/94 Speed
10 Points gained from speed being 84 will probably go into SAtk or HP.

And you ask if I want to submit a spread!

Okay, time to copy Aldaron and figure out how to do X-Act's Great Base Stat Equalizer.

More to come!

 

[Aldaron]

We actually have the same thoughts, Hyra, except I think it is necessary to keep the Speed lower, and in effect emphasize the defenses to help it as a "Stall" type Pokemon.

I think there are no arguments from people that we currently have a very offensive metagame, correct?