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CAP 3 CAP 3 - Part 9 (Main Ability Discussion)
- Thread starter Gothic Togekiss
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Or you could make it like a Blaze boost: below 1/x HP Woodman's defenses are lowered by 1/3 but speed/attack/sattack is boosted by 1.5. If its HP goes above 1/x, the boost disappears.
Also Flameproof is stupid on something that only has 2 common weaknesses and is really bulky.
Does that mean we would have to make up a new ability for it? It seem like every offensive ability not-named Wonder Guard have been thrown at this beast and not one have stuck on long enough to get approval except for maybe Rock Head. It seem that this creature might have only one ability for now.
Erh…aren’t most abilities already straightforward as humanly possible? I don’t think a single ability is so complex that it causes major headaches in order to understand the mechanics behind.
We can also *gasp* NOT give it two abilities!
Battle Armor - Fits the art, not too powerful, not worthless. Very middle-of-the-road choice
New Ability:
Greenhouse - Causes 5 turns of sun upon switching in. I think we could test the weather waters with this, without giving it full-blown permasun (ie Drought). I think the name fits with both heat and plants. (Yes, I can implement this ability in Shoddy)
Vital Spirit - I'd like another option against Hypnosis. None of the VS/Insomnia pokes are very usable, so this could be a good test. The concept is a little shaky versus the art. We could always give it a different name like Vigilant, like it is "constantly standing on guard". That fits the art a little better. Since there are already two "no sleep" abilities, a third would not hurt.
For those of you that keep mentioning the defenses on this thing as a reason to not give recovery, I think you are seriously underestimating the impact of a weakness to Stealth Rock. I don't know if it's possible to make a defensive pokemon that is SR weak. Without recovery, it will only be harder. Losing 25% of that massive HP every time it switches in, that's a very big deal.
Almost every decent defensive poke in the game gets instant recovery. Look at the dropoff in Snorlax usage without a recovery move. I agree that Revenankh's ShedRest potency surprised me, and perhaps it is broken. I think the defenses are high enough that we should give it weather-dependent recovery (a la Cressy). But, if we think an SR weak can live without insta-recovery and NOT be a sweeper -- I'm really pessimistic it will work. OTOH, I was very wrong about Revenankh, so I guess we'll see....
New Ability:
Greenhouse - Causes 5 turns of sun upon switching in. I think we could test the weather waters with this, without giving it full-blown permasun (ie Drought). I think the name fits with both heat and plants. (Yes, I can implement this ability in Shoddy)
Vital Spirit - I'd like another option against Hypnosis. None of the VS/Insomnia pokes are very usable, so this could be a good test. The concept is a little shaky versus the art. We could always give it a different name like Vigilant, like it is "constantly standing on guard". That fits the art a little better. Since there are already two "no sleep" abilities, a third would not hurt.
For those of you that keep mentioning the defenses on this thing as a reason to not give recovery, I think you are seriously underestimating the impact of a weakness to Stealth Rock. I don't know if it's possible to make a defensive pokemon that is SR weak. Without recovery, it will only be harder. Losing 25% of that massive HP every time it switches in, that's a very big deal.
Almost every decent defensive poke in the game gets instant recovery. Look at the dropoff in Snorlax usage without a recovery move. I agree that Revenankh's ShedRest potency surprised me, and perhaps it is broken. I think the defenses are high enough that we should give it weather-dependent recovery (a la Cressy). But, if we think an SR weak can live without insta-recovery and NOT be a sweeper -- I'm really pessimistic it will work. OTOH, I was very wrong about Revenankh, so I guess we'll see....
*Le gasp* I can't believe I never thought of that...oh wait, I think I did.
I actually want this to be used on something like this Pokemon. Would be very interesting to see how much 5 turns of Sun upon entering would do.
I feel stupid, and with a reason. Sorry for not paying enough attention to your post. I just skimmed over it. u_u
On the other hand, Doug, this pokémon has quite a lot of things that differentiates it from Cresselia and other mixed walls: Despite the SR weak, it has a good attack stat, coupled with a great dual STAB. Sure, Cresselia is not SR weak and has better defenses, but 75 Special Attack sucks and psychic STAB isn't exactly great. Cresselia can come in and stay a lot of time, thanks to good defenses, great ability, and a recovery move. This one will probably have to switch in less, thanks to its dual STAB. Hitting most walls SE is a great way to not being forced out. Besides, it can use Rest. Or Resttalk, like Cresselia, but with better attacks and attack power.
Wonder Guard isn't offensive, it's defensive. In the same vein, yes, I think if this thing needs an offensive ability (I don't think it does) then a new one should be made up, or perhaps it should be Solar Power.
I do think we should keep the weather changing abilities out of this, even if it's a temporary one. Even a short weather change is plenty good already.
Doug, I understand your worry that we're holding this one back to much, but I don't think a SR weakness is crippling for a defensive Pokemon. Gyarados is still on top and Salamence has been used defensively before (admittedly, he gets 50% recovery, but his defenses also "suck" and he has more crippling weaknesses). I do think an SR weak is more worrysome than in a normal server because it can hardly be spinned off (thank Revenankh for that), but it's not the end of the world. A 420 HP Woodman still has 312 left after switching into Stealth Rock, which is low for a max HP, but not unrecoverable.
For usable movepool, assuming a somewhat average ability, I currently have in mind (not counting flavor moves and moves everything gets such as Rest and Substitute)
Grass STAB: Grass Knot, Energy Ball, SolarBeam, Giga Drain, Wood Hammer
Fire STAB: Flamethrower, Fire Blast, Overheat, Flare Blitz, Blaze Kick, possibly Lava Plume
Others: Hammer Arm, Dragonbreath?
Non-Attacking: Lock-on, Aromatherapy, Will-o-Wisp, Leech Seed, Safeguard, Synthesis, possibly Stun Spore and Growth
Some things might need to be tested and then might have to be removed, like Synthesis, but I'm not too worried.
You seriously need to add Rock Head on this. It doesn't seem as game breaking as Greenhouse. Greenhouse seems very situational, after 5 turns is up and he is still in the game, what happens. He uses Sunny Day now to heal with synthesis? or does he switch back out and try switching back out.
Sceptile and Charizard both get thunder type moves, I think that more than justifies this being able to get one. Even more so that this Pokemon specializes in cannon beams = Charge Beam at the very least, and I'd say Zap cannon too as a bigger form of that charge beam. I mean come on now it is a armor cannon Pokemon.
However, I wouldn't see it getting moves like hydro cannon or hydropump just because of that. I think Fire is easily affiliated with Electricity, but not really with Water.
I don't understand this. It has so many abilities that can fit it, and because of that we should only give it one ability? That doesn't sound very logical.
Drought is permanent. This would just be a sunny day on switch in. There's a huge difference.
And when comparing it to Ice or Sand, those don't grant a 1.5x multiplier to one type and 0.5x multiplier to another. Neither do Ice or Sand allow for speed boosts like Swift Swim and Chlorophyll. All Sand and Ice do is deal 1/16th damage to other Pokemon types, and sometimes grant minor healing or evasion.
Perhaps an Air Lock type duration? Sunny Day is only active while he's in play, any other weather effects used afterwards override it, and when he leaves the weather reverts to it's previous condition? If that's too hard to code, then after he leaves play it would revert to normal, I suppose.
What thunder type move exactly does Charizard get? Only one I see is Hidden Power, which obviously doesn't count. And Sceptile only gets Thunderpunch, which so many random Pokemon get it doesn't really set a precedent unless it's from D/P, where there isn't a Move Tutor for it.
Outside of Thunder Punch, 2 fire pokemon have electric attacks. Arcanine and Magmortar. That's not really any sort of affiliation that proves that it happens often.
I disagree that Solar Power would be broken, With LO it would lose 22.25% each turn, with Leftovers it would only lose 6.25% but it would lack the power to KO many of its counters, the weather changers could come in against it and remove its boost (Tyranitar on fire moves and Solarbeam even Grass Knot with some investment, 'snow on grass moves if you risk it, Hippo will not work) and lets not forget it needs to set up sunny day first, I can think of a few Pokemon that can come in on a sunny day avoid the 1KO outspeed and 2KO thins thing.
We voted balanced and the spread we have is FAR from balanced, its more defensive then Skarmory and Togekiss come on. A good offensive ability could give it a fighting chance as a bulky sweeper.
Edit: Useing X-acts stat rateings I found it has the simmiler defensiveness to Skarmory, Mantine, Deoxys-D, Hippowdon, Bronzong, Magcargo, Giratina, Lugia, Tangrowth among others, is that really balanced?
I would like to propose a new ability Bask: doubles speed in sun. Everyone agrees that chlorophyll does not fit, but bask does lizards bask in the sun to warm up then they are faster.
edit: I think that even 5 turns of auto sun is too much for a Pokemon as strong as this, maybe on a far weaker Pokemon with more weaknesses, less effective stats it could be unbroken but on this it would dramatically transform the metagame, sun teams would replace sand as the weather to use every team would need a very counter to grass and fire types in the sun (shudders at the thought of SpecsTran Fire Blast in the sun being easy to achieve) in short its not that much better then drought for brokenness.
We voted balanced and the spread we have is FAR from balanced, its more defensive then Skarmory and Togekiss come on. A good offensive ability could give it a fighting chance as a bulky sweeper.
Edit: Useing X-acts stat rateings I found it has the simmiler defensiveness to Skarmory, Mantine, Deoxys-D, Hippowdon, Bronzong, Magcargo, Giratina, Lugia, Tangrowth among others, is that really balanced?
I would like to propose a new ability Bask: doubles speed in sun. Everyone agrees that chlorophyll does not fit, but bask does lizards bask in the sun to warm up then they are faster.
edit: I think that even 5 turns of auto sun is too much for a Pokemon as strong as this, maybe on a far weaker Pokemon with more weaknesses, less effective stats it could be unbroken but on this it would dramatically transform the metagame, sun teams would replace sand as the weather to use every team would need a very counter to grass and fire types in the sun (shudders at the thought of SpecsTran Fire Blast in the sun being easy to achieve) in short its not that much better then drought for brokenness.
I could of swore Charizard got thunderpunch, but that was a mistake of mine. However, there are plenty more fire and grass Pokemon that do get thunder element attacks.
Blaziken =Thunderpunch
Typhlosion =Thunderpunch
Magmar/Magmortar =Thunderpunch/Thunderbolt
Arcanine = Thunderfang
Infernape = Thunderpunch
Sceptile = Thunderpunch
Breloom = Thunderpunch
Ludicolo = Thunderpunch
Cacturne = Thunderpunch
Also Octillery gets Charge Beam (because its mouth is designed to shoot beams). Can't see how Octillery would get that and this wouldn't get charge beam.
I specifically said "outside of Thunder Punch", and then you go and list seven Fire/Grass Pokemon with Thunder Punch. Only two of which are fire Pokemon. That's 4/17 with an electric attack.
As many Psychic Pokemon get Ice Punch as Fire do Thunder Punch (Medicham, Alakhazam, Hypno). Does this make Psychic associated with Ice? The only real association between types I see are Ground/Rock, Water/Ice, and Flying/Normal.
Perhaps Octillery gets it because Octillery sucks in every imaginable way, and this doesn't?
As many Psychic Pokemon get Ice Punch as Fire do Thunder Punch (Medicham, Alakhazam, Hypno). Does this make Psychic associated with Ice? The only real association between types I see are Ground/Rock, Water/Ice, and Flying/Normal.
Perhaps Octillery gets it because Octillery sucks in every imaginable way, and this doesn't?
I did not notice that out of thunderpunch line, because it just seems ridiculous, why exclude thunderpunch when discussing the ability of a Pokemon being able to use electric element attacks? It is an electric type attack. I mean just logically this thing shoots out of cannons, so what is your logic as to saying it wouldn't be able to charge beam?
A bulky Pokemon like this with Solar Power is broken. Also your ability Bask is the same as Chlorophyll, just has a different name = /
Please re-read my post as I said it might get one ability for now. I didn't say it's going to have one ability.
We can either of those and work out fine, or we could slap two defensive abilities on it and call it a SR weak wall/tank.
Because it's a move tutor move, and they went rather overboard on who can learn stuff from the move tutors. Look at how many Pokemon in general learn the elemental punches in 3rd gen but not 4th gen. Hell, Charizard can't even Fire Punch in D/P unless you get it in 3rd gen first.
As for charge beam on this guy, it's mostly the elemental alignment and the chance for SpAtk uppage. A 70% chance to increase his SpAtk is quite large. Imagine firing that off on the switch, hitting whatever and being boosted. Now you have a boosted STAB attack you can throw out.
But why would there even be a chance for only a single ability, when so many can fit him? All it means is there will be a very high probability of a run-off poll during the ability polls. Might be nice to actually have one at some point in this project. =P
This is a great idea!
I can't believe there isn't more support for Sunny weather related abilities. A Grass/Fire CAP and no Sun boost of any kind seems like an awful waste.
How often is Sunny Day used in OU atm? I don't think I've ever seen it used. If this thing is being built for CB/CS/SubSeeding then I doubt many people will bother to give it Sunny Day. However, if it has a Sun related ability then a decent number of Sunny Day Woodmen might be seen.
Leaf Guard is the only other viable Sun option imo - it would help to tank (which this pokemon is built for, even though it was supposed to be balanced) while not making it overpowered as Solar Power would. Someone needs to do the damage calculations of a Solar Powered, Sunny Day 252SpA Fire Blast to a Blissey. I bet it would be a preeetty big chunk.
So choose between giving it Leaf Guard or Bask, and then for the second abilitiy give it a physical aid like Rock Head or a hax reducing ability like Battle Armor. However I doubt people will choose either of those two much - they're just so boring!
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