CAP 3 CAP 3 - Part 9 (Main Ability Discussion)

[eric the espeon]

I am still keen on Solar Power, I don't think it would be really broken, due to it having low base Sp. attack, it would just make a set like this viable.

<Pokemon name>@LO/Hot rock
252 Sp. attack/ some speed and some defenses
modest
Solar power
-Solar Beam/Grass Knot
-Fire Blast/Lava Plume
-Sunny Day
-Synthesis/extra attacking move

An ability that heals 12.5% per turn in the sun would be nice for a wall/tank set.

IMO Drought, Battle Armor, Sniper, Chlorophyll, Pressure, Leaf Guard are all not good ideas, Rock Head, Flash Fire and Splinter could work but i do prefer Solar Power and a +12.5% per turn in the sun ability (Sol Heal?).

and hi Captain

 

[nihilist]

SolarPower
Clorophyll
Mountaineer

 

[Jonathan]

Here are my thoughts.

Sniper: Okay, this just won't work IMO. Look at all the Pokes who use learn Sniper: Kingdra, Octillery, and Dorapion. What sets them apart from Fire/Grass is that the above three have some sort of precise aiming method. Kingdra and Octillery have a very long and narrow snout, much like the barrel of a gun. Dorapion has razor sharp pincers. Fire/Grass has a bulky Bazooka. Not quite the same thing. Besides, this ability would hardly be of use in competitive battles. The above three are more sweeper-oriented than Fire/Grass is, and can thus make more use of it.

Battle Armour: Sure, this ability is fitting, and critical hits are annoying. Personally I don't think the point Aldaron made about SE critical hits will come into play that often. However, I still oppose Battle Armour for the simple reason that it's a very "meh" ability. People don't rely on critical hits in the first place to take a Pokemon down, so giving it an Ability to block critical hits, while nice and usefull at times, is just wasted potential IMO when something much more usefull could be used instead. Battle Armour wouldn't be the end of the world, but there's just much better stuff out there.

Rock Head: I'm pretty neutral on the "this does(n't) make sense" issue. Competitively speaking, I suppose this ability would be pretty good. Though apart from a purely physical set with Flare Blitz and Wood Hammer, I don't see this ability getting much use. Considering its Base Stats, this guy's primary purpose will serve as a physical wall of sorts, with a special attack or two thrown onto the main moveset. There's really no room for a physcial attack on the "standard" set. Leech Seed deals fine with Blissy. Ultimately, I feel this is somewhat like Battle Armour in that while it has its uses, and is by no means a bad ability, you won't get as much mileage out of it in the long run as you would for say:

Vital Spirit: Thank you chaos for the idea. This ability is perfect, and my number one advocate. Our guy definitely has "the look" to match this ability in my opinion. And then there's the competitive aspect to the CAP project, where Vital Spirit is plain fantastic. Guys, we NEED another way of handling Sleep inducers than ResTalking. Natural Cure doesn't cut it, and the only other way of dealing with it is something like Toxic Orb Breloom. No OU Poke has Insmonia (something I desperately advocated for Revenankh) or Vital Spirit. Please, we seriously need a better counter to sleep. I see so many people who are forced into a position to pick one of their six Pokes to incapacitate for the rest of the battle. If you're worried Vital Spirit may be too powerful for some reason, realize that Yanmega and Gengar (with Sludgebomb) can still give him quite a hurting, so it's not like those two sweepers are doomed against Fire/Grass. Now, in the way of healing: to be clear, this thing isn't getting a 50% recovery move (see bottom of my post), so some of you might be worried that even Rest isn't an option now. YOU STILL HAVE A SECOND ABILITY WHICH DOESN'T PREVENT YOU FROM USING REST. I may sound pedantic, but the number of people who didn't seem to realize this during Revenankh's creation is astounding. Plus, don't forget this thing will most likely get Leech Seed, and that's plenty recovery enough. What is this fettish with giving all our new defensive Pokes a 50% recovery move? Very few actually get one, and a Poke with 120HP and 105 Def, not to mention other great stats, can definitely live without one. So yea, choose Vital Spirit.

Flame Body: I like this ability, and could see it very well as a second ability. It makes sense aesthetically, and would work well competitively. I've rambled on for so long, so I'll keep this short by simply saying that this ability works well with its physical wall status.

Intimidate: Could be interesting, and definitely merits some discussion. Might be a little overpowered though, but this can be worked around if we limit Fire/Grass in other ways. Bottom line is I think we need to discuss this more.

Also:

NO 50% recovery, Rest + Subseed is too good as is. I'll do a write up later.

Agreed, well put that down on attacks it shouldn't later. Speaking of which, I got to post the final tally.

526 - 535: 16
536 - 545: 30

 

[Luck]

At least a few people have mentioned Drought. I think I have to say no. I don't think Drought is intrinistically broken, but honestly this pokemon seems too good for it. I'd probably be happy to see Drought on something with crappier stats.

Drought is not broken but to have it in the game you must have Drizzle.Drought total changes the metagame is play with out the proper checks meaning other constant weather changers.For the game to balance out you need

1.Drought poke
2.Drizzle poke
3.Constant hail poke
4.Another poke with Cloud Nine or Air Lock
5.Maybe new ability "Storm Stopper" poke that cancel weather effects

We already have the Air Lock poke.With out the checks in place every team will be a weather team.If we are going to make a drought poke it is going to come in the form of trio like wormdams or Legendary animals something like drought,drizzle and storm stopper.To ensure not every single team you play is weather team or even worse every team is sunny day team you need counter measures in place.

Drought is not broken,Drought with out correct measure in the game would balance.

 

[X-Act]

No recovery moves, please.

This thing has 169 physical tankiness (Extremely Good) and 148 special tankiness (Very Good) and will probably have Leech Seed, coupled with only 3 weaknesses, one of which is rare. So please no recovery moves outside of Rest. Not even Moonlight, Morning Sun and Synthesis.

 

[Mekkah]

Just because Aki thinks it shouldn't get a 50% recovery move doesn't mean everyone does.

I see so many people who are forced into a position to pick one of their six Pokes to incapacitate for the rest of the battle.

This might be true in ADV, but in DP sleep lasts too short to call it that. 1-4 turns...on average, it lasts 2.5 turns, only slightly longer than Rest.

I don't like Intimidate much (it would be like giving Skarmory or Hippowdon Intimidate, more or less), however Flame Body sounds like fun. It can't trigger on Stone Edge, but it's funny nonetheless. My only problem is that it is a luck-based trait.

I like Battle Armor not only because it fights luck, but also because it is not an ability that significantly improves him. Of course, it pretty much requires a secondary ability with a drawback, such as Vital Spirit, Solar Power or no second ability at all to get any use at all.

Not even Moonlight, Morning Sun and Synthesis.

What if we gave it Drizzle? :]

 

[Time Mage]

I hope it doesn't get any recovery besides Rest, X-Act. But I'm not very optimistic, people tend to forget that things like Swampert or Bronzong work great without instant recovery, and this one will probably have a lot of support options anyway, like WoW, LS, a powder, etc.

Regarding Drought (and Drizzle), I don't think it fits this pokémon. I'd like a future pokémon in OU with Drought and another with Drizzle, but in order to make those not overpowered, the pokémon stats shouldn't be great (like Abomasnow) AND, instead of having Drought and Drizzle, they should get a "lite" version, that summons sun or rain upon switching, but that doesn't last forever, only 5-8 turns. That way, if the Drought/Drizzle pokémon fainted or didn't have a chance to switch back again, the weather would end naturally.

Quite offtopic, I know, but I had to say that.

 

[Mekkah]

I think I agree with Time Mage entirely.

 

[Jonathan]

Clearly it's not just Aki and me who thinks this guy shouldn't get a 50% recovery move. And if we were to not give him one, then Intimidate should definitely considered. Your point about giving this guy Intimidate is like giving it to Skarm and Hippo is valid, however the latter two have great 50% recovery moves (as opposed to crappy ones like Morning Sun). Like I said, it's all a matter of balance. Intimidate over 50% healing. You may argue that even this is too strong, and I might agree. This is what we need to discuss. It would be great if someone could run some calcs with Intimidate on this guy, switching into several things.

I don't know about Sleep lasting shorter in DP than in ADV. What I do know is in DP, you can't afford to leave something asleep, at least much less than you could in Advance.

 

[X-Act]

Intimidate on a Pokemon is like an automatic boost in its defense by 1.5x until the foe switches out. That would give this Pokemon about a 253 physical tankiness. That means 7% more defensive than Regirock, which is the Pokemon having the highest Physical Tankiness of all. Would we want that? I say hell no.

Oh, and 169 PT means that this thing has more physical tankiness than Forretress and Skarmory, and slightly less than Hippowdon. But on top of that is ALSO has a Special Tankiness of 148, which is the same as Revenankh's, or, for those not familiar with it, about the same as Tentacruel and Togekiss.

So this Pokemon has slightly more defense than Forretress and about the same special defense as Togekiss.

I'll ask you the question again slowly:

Would you like to have instant recovery and/or Intimidate on this thing?

I hope I don't even need to write the answer for that, and that it doesn't even warrant discussion!

 

[latinoheat]

The fact that people actually don't think drought or huge power would be broken or overcentralising makes me thankful this is a community project.

I would like to see Heatproof/Vital Spirit and atleast see solar power tested.

Maybe something to do with the cannons that affects Accuracy.

This kinda out there and probably broken but an ability where he sheds the wood parts when at say 1/3 health. In doing so increases speed and special but halfs defences.

No to 50% recovery or Intimidate

 

[Mekkah]

Sleep definitely lasts a lot shorter, Colin and Jump confirmed it.

I would vouch for neither a 50% recovery move nor Intimidate. Morning Sun and friends I'm not entirely sure on - they may be hurt a lot by Sand Stream and Snow Warning, but the last thing we need is those becoming the norm on the CAP metagame. They will also not provide a completely sufficient fix, as this thing can 3HKO Tyranitar, OHKO Abomasnow and deal 77% minimum to Hippowdon with minimum investment.

I think that in earlygame giving your opponent one free turn is not going to hurt your chances more than not trying to use your sleeping Pokemon again at all.

Also, I always switch Revenankh into sleep moves with no probs.

Also, I think X-Act just kinda showed that this thing could survive any amount of sleep with ease.

 

[Jonathan]

X-Act, I'm glad you posted those calcs. To be clear, all I said was that Intimidate merits some discussion. And personally I think your calcs are discussion enough to show that Intimidate isn't viable competitively.

EDIT:

I think that in earlygame giving your opponent one free turn is not going to hurt your chances more than not trying to use your sleeping Pokemon again at all.

Sorry, I'm not sure I understand what you mean. What do you mean by giving your opponent a free turn?

As for your other remarks: so does sleep definitely last 1-4 turns in DP? I'm curious about the exact number. Still, the fact remains that if you're asleep for two turns in DP, you could be facing an SD'd Garchomp. I think you'd agree how much more can happen in 2 turns of DP than 2 turns of ADV "threat wise," so the fact that Sleep lasts shorter in DP is somewhat neutered by this fact.

Ok, I forgot to mention that Revenankh can work as a status absorber with Shed Skin, but even that is iffy. I'd rather base my strategy on knowing for sure that I can take a Sleep move than hoping I'll wake up soon. And there's the fact that once Revenankh wakes up, the Sleeper comes back out and does his job again. That won't fly with Vital Spirit.

So because this thing takes neutral hits better than Forry and Skarm, it can afford to be incapacitated for a few turns? This guy has hardly any useful resistances, unlike the above two, something which you don't seem to be taking into account. This was why I originally though Intimidate might be viable. And I'd go further to say that even Forry and Skarm can't afford to stay asleep for a few turns. Nothing can really, unless it has Sleep Talk.

 

[Aldaron]

Just to be clear...Pressure still allows Stone Edge to have a 12.5% CH rate (not positive about the percentage tbh) 4 times, while battle armor would only allow 0% 8 times :(

I don't know if I could argue that Pressure was more detrimental to Stone Edge than Battle Armor.

Butttt...I'm no longer a fan of Pressure ;)

I agree with chaos here...Vital Spirit just seems perfect for our Pokemon. It's got the look, it's got the "feel," and I certainly think we have a more solid answer to sleep, even with DP's reduced sleep count.

Secondary ability I am supporting either Solar Power or Flame Body...depends if we want to go offensive or defensive. I think neither ability really needs much explanation, so I'll just leave it at that.

 

[X-Act]

I'm also not keen on Heatproof and White Smoke myself, even though I mentioned them.

I'm now seconding Vital Spirit too.

I don't like Flame Body myself. 30% chance of getting burned when you touch it is too high when this thing will most likely be dealt quite a number of blows before it goes down.

I also don't like Solar Power with its defenses and a decent SpA stat of 95. At worst, this Pokemon will get a Grass move and a Fire move, and I see that Sunny Day/Grass move/Fire move/HP Rock with Solar Power would be devastating to many Pokemon. I can only see Blissey walling this if those moves are all special (Fire Blast would deal 49% max to her).

 

[Deck Knight]

Yeah, I'm totally not seeing lizard with wooden armor = Vital Spirit thing all you are.

As a matter of fact, both of the flagship pokemon with Vital Spirit are hyperactive nutjobs, Vigoroth and Primeape. Why people think a calm looking armored lizard even remotely exudes this level of activity is insanity. Delibird also gets Vital Spirit for some reason LOL Delibird. 3 CAP Project mentions in a row.

Leaf Guard also prevents Sleep if you use Sunny Day. Sunny Day in turn draws in the Fire types that counter this. Sunny Day also tells Tyranitar to get lost, since on the turn it is used Sunny Day will override the Sandstorm switchin effect.

I still say go with Synthesis. This thing can only use special attacks well, and short of Growth it won't have any stat-ups. It will also have 4 moveslot syndrome based on the fact every fire type counters it handily unless it has an SE Hidden Power. HP's that deal with fire types will not deal effectively with one of Mence or Garchomp, both of which can stat-up to their hearts content. At the end of the day this still only has 4 moveslots, and Sunny Day/Synthesis/Fire Blast/Grass Knot gets horribly walled by Blissey, Heatran, and Mence. Replace Sunny Day with an HP Ice, Tyranitar can waltz in and screw its recovery. Replace Sunny Day with Leech Seed, and Bliss can just keep switching in and out.

Really, since it will want both of its STABs it has two other options. EVen if we gave it all 3 of Leech Seed, Stun Spore, and Synthesis, it still could only use two of them.

 

[Mekkah]

Deck Knight, the problem with that argument is "Gengar". It can hurt about anything, but has only a few moveslots. Nonetheless, it is super dangerous. Moveslot syndrome is not enough to completely belittle the power of being super powerful and versatile.

I'm not going with Solar Power because of what X-Act said:

I can only see Blissey walling this if those moves are all special (Fire Blast would deal 49% max to her).

Drought is absurd guys, come on. This thing is going to be the most used Pokemon for a pretty long time on the server because everyone wants to test it, so the sun will be out pretty much all the time. Way to nerf every single Water type out there.

 

[Jace the Mind Sculptor]

Yeah, I'm totally not seeing lizard with wooden armor = Vital Spirit thing all you are.

As a matter of fact, both of the flagship pokemon with Vital Spirit are hyperactive nutjobs, Vigoroth and Primeape. Why people think a calm looking armored lizard even remotely exudes this level of activity is insanity. Delibird also gets Vital Spirit for some reason LOL Delibird. 3 CAP Project mentions in a row.

Leaf Guard also prevents Sleep if you use Sunny Day. Sunny Day in turn draws in the Fire types that counter this. Sunny Day also tells Tyranitar to get lost, since on the turn it is used Sunny Day will override the Sandstorm switchin effect.

I still say go with Synthesis. This thing can only use special attacks well, and short of Growth it won't have any stat-ups. It will also have 4 moveslot syndrome based on the fact every fire type counters it handily unless it has an SE Hidden Power. HP's that deal with fire types will not deal effectively with one of Mence or Garchomp, both of which can stat-up to their hearts content. At the end of the day this still only has 4 moveslots, and Sunny Day/Synthesis/Fire Blast/Grass Knot gets horribly walled by Blissey, Heatran, and Mence. Replace Sunny Day with an HP Ice, Tyranitar can waltz in and screw its recovery. Replace Sunny Day with Leech Seed, and Bliss can just keep switching in and out.

Really, since it will want both of its STABs it has two other options. EVen if we gave it all 3 of Leech Seed, Stun Spore, and Synthesis, it still could only use two of them.

I completely agree with this entire post. This is exactly why I feel synthesis is not a bad move to give at all. Although if we gave this pokemon Leaf Guard, with the above set we kinda have another Revenankh in our hands, maybe. Regardless that makes for a very interesting defensive pokemon that *hopefully* doesnt overcentralize the metagame.

 

[Captain]

If instant healing is too much, can't it use wish/protect. Afterwards, it'd only have two moveslots left, which would likely be used by its STAB attacks.

 

[Lil Ant]

I seriously don't think Vital Spirit should be the ability for a lot of reasons. I mean sure it will help counter Breloom to an extent, but i seriously wanted to run a Rest/Talk set on Leonin. Vital Spirit doesn't make any sense to me ( appearance wise ) as Rock Head doesn't make sense to some of you people ( Even though he clearly has a rock on top of his skull >_> )

But anyways, Vital Spirit ruins his tanking abilities. Sure he can make a decent Gengar switch in, but once he gets to comfortable, Gengar may run Sludge Bomb to deal with it.

I also heard someone talking about Bronzong and Swampert being alright without Recovery moves. For 1, Bronzong and Swampert aren't weak to Stealth Rock. Bronzong is immune to Toxic Spikes and Spikes. Comparing the 3 Pokemon is irrelevant seeing is they all aren't the same thing.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

I just want to say that some of this talk about balancing it out to the point of being crippled and useless scare me, very much. Anyway, just before I logged on I just thought up an ability that involves increasing Beam/Cannon relating moves by 1.3. I was going to call it "Cannon Fodder" but I think I need a new name for it.

 

[Lil Ant]

I just want to say that some of this talk about balancing it out to the point of being crippled and useless scare me, very much. Anyway, just before I logged on I just thought up an ability that involves increasing Beam/Cannon relating moves by 1.3. I was going to call it "Cannon Fodder" but I think I need a new name for it.

I don't see use of that ability, seeing that none of his STAB moves come from his cannons, aside Solar Beam.

 

[Jonathan]

Lil Ant, you can still run a ResTalk set, just pick the second ability. You make a good point with SR though.

Really guys, with Sandstream all over OU, I wouldn't use Morning Sun/Synthesis anyway.

Don't even get me started on Drought. It would be ridiculously overpowered. To put it briefly, Hail and Sandstorm don't benefit the user in nearly as many ways as everlasting sunlight/rain would. In fact, I remember hearing something about how in ADV, people were even against using a lvl. 1 Kyogre/Groudon to set up everlasting sun/rain because it would be too powerful. So if it's too powerful when you're down 5-6 at the start of the match, it's definitely too powerful on a lvl. 100 Fire/Grass Pokemon.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

I don't see use of that ability, seeing that none of his STAB moves come from his cannons, aside Solar Beam.

Flamethrower, Fire Blast, Energy Ball.

Also, WTF happened to all the Battle Armor love? Are you rely on CHs to kill this thing? Doesn't Stone Edge kill this shit in one blow, why do you want it to take a critical hit to the face anyway.

 

[latinoheat]

its not crippling it by giving it a crappy ability, the thing has amazing defences, potentially insane movepool and one of the best offensive typings in the game. This thing could have pickup and it wouldn't sit anywhere lower then low OU.Stop trying to make every fucking project we make the next gengar or tyranitar.