CAP 9 CAP 9 - Part 7a - Ability Discussion

[Plus]

Discuss the possible abilities for CAP 9. Select abilities based on the stat spread, BSR, typing, and everything else we have done so far.

Name: Stop the Secondary
Description: A Pokémon that through means of ability, moves, and typing, can stop a variety of the non damaging affect of moves and moves of non damaging origin.

Justification: While the immediate threat of damaging moves is large and present, the affect of moves such as status, Trick, Leech Seed, Taunt, Stealth Rock, Spikes have arguably had a greater affect to the metagame than anything has ever had, something that this would greatly look in to.

Questions to be Answered:
~ How easily would a Pokémon with such large of a niche be able to fit into a competitive team?
~ How large of an impact would the reducation of non damaging affects and moves have on the metagame?

- What, if any, would happen to the types of teams being used?
- How would this affect the usage of these types of moves?​

~ How much of an affect does typing have on the ability for ANY Pokémon to perform this duty?

Typing: Dark/Ground
Style Bias: Somewhat offensive (0-20)
Build Bias: Physical (20 to infinity)
Stat Rating: Excellent (420-579)



The Rules:

• Do not polljump. I'm almost done saying this, guys. All we need done now is movepool, and then our cap is complete competitively. You've done a good job so far, so remember to keep the discussion to strictly ability. Suggesting that there are possibilities that CAP 9 got x move is fine, but suggesting that it should get x move is not.
  
• Threadhogging -- don't do it. What I said in the Secondary Typing Poll applies here even more. Get your point across, defend it, and move on. I shouldn't see the same people posting the same shit over and over again.
  
• Keep the convo fresh. Don't discuss the same thing over and over again. If you have something new to post, post it. If not, think a little bit harder on your post, and make sure you are not threadhogging. In other words, bandwagoning.
  
• If you're going to submit a custom ability, back it up with justification. Don't just suggest one. Explain why we should make a new ability, what it has to offer for the concept/metagame, and why an already existing ability can't perform adequately.

Little Sidenote: I opened up Stat Spread with ability so people wouldn't choose an ability that would affect the stat spread, or a stat spread that would affect an ability. I encourage people to bring up points about stat spreads and how it could affect ability, as I have opened up that thread already. It's not polljumping in that regard.

Keep it clean! This part of CAP 9 is IMO the most important.

 

[zarator]

Some abilities I think may benefit our beloved CAP9 without being overpowering are Guts and Levitate

Levitate would give us a nice immunity to Spikes and Toxic Spikes. Coupled with Stealth Rock resistance and Dark typing for hitting those annoying spinblockers (aka Ghosts), this would make CAP9 a very annoying thorn in the side of those teams who realy a bit too much on entry hazards.

Guts, on the other hand, would help CAP9 to discourage the use of Burn and Poison inducing moves. Thanks to the Thunderwave and Static immunity granted by the Ground type, CAP9 would then be able to discourage the use of almost all kinds of status inflicting move (bar Sleep).

About other abilities which have been mentioned in the previous threads:

I'm a bit skeptical upon Magic Guard. The immunity to residual damage is a great thing for our CAP9, of course, but there is a serious risk of overpowering this 'mon. Certainly all of you know that the only Magic Guard pokémon as of date is Cleafable, a fairly defensive Pokémon. However, despite those average attacking stats, it makes great use of Life Orb and STAB Double Edge. Ok, CAP9 does not have STAB Double Edge, but has anyone thought about how a recoil-free Life Orb would affect the power of CAP9, should he get the attack stat that BSR, O/D balance and P/S balance we voted call out for?

Sticky Hold, on the contrary, is a bit redundant. Sure, it would give CAP9 Trick immunity, but when you already have high attack and STAB Pursuit, is Sticky Hold really necessary? I feel it would be an overly specialized solution.

 

[Tortferngatr]

Okay, I'm throwing out a custom ability here and now, as an idea:

Status Quo: If CAP9 would be burned or poisoned, then CAP9 would gain +1 special defense instead. Useless against Skarmory and Forretress, but there are ways of dealing with them. Because the MAJORITY of secondary users are specially based, this would help counter them, but it would also lead to CAP9 being counterable by physical Pokemon unless it managed to get Curse (unlikely but possible,) since the metagame, no matter what, is mostly physical, as well as many of our CAPs (Arghonaut, Kitsunoh, Pyroak's common Rock head sets, Revenankh, and some Fidgit. Syclant has the potential to run physical, but he prefers his stronger special movepool.)

-Torterra-Infernape-Feraligatr-

 

[Objection]

Sticky Hold, on the contrary, is a bit redundant. Sure, it would give CAP9 Trick immunity, but when you already have high attack and STAB Pursuit, is Sticky Hold really necessary? I feel it would be an overly specialized solution.

Actually, Sticky Hold is what will prevent set-up sweepers (especially SD Lucario) from getting a free turn to set up once the Trick Scarfer perishes. Meanwhile, they will either have to stay in and keep trying to use Trick, or they will have to switch out and get hit by a STAB Pursuit from a non-choiced pokemon. Your concerns about Magic Guard making CAP9 overpowered are worthy of consideration though, so what ability would I propose for CAP9?

Arena Trap if CAP9 gets two abilities - not all of CAP9's targets are weak to Pursuit. With Arena Trap, CAP9 can completely trap the majority of secondary effect abusers. It can then use the time to undo the opponent's secondary effect and wipe out their trapped secondary effect abuser. This will encourage people to stop relying on secondary effects.

Note: disregard my previous mention of Shed Skin.

 

[zarator]

Actually, Sticky Hold is what will prevent set-up sweepers (especially SD Lucario) from getting a free turn to set up once the Trick Scarfer perishes. Meanwhile, they will either have to stay in and keep trying to use Trick, or they will have to switch out and get hit by a STAB Pursuit from a non-choiced pokemon

I never said Sticky Hold is useless on CAP9. I simply stated that there are better things to do with that "ability slot", if you ask me.

 

[mudkip72]

After glancing through the abilities list, the potential abilities for a Dark/Ground type to stop the secondary include:

-Insomnia (not really too good since it only stops one paticular rarely used status)
-Guts (offensive poke + Guts = happys. Can easily work, especially with T-wave failing against this poke)
-Levitate (spikes, t-spikes)
-Magic Guard (self-explanitory, still suffers from Burn attack drop, and in reality, I feel this would just make the poke an offensive LO sweeper rather than secondary stopper)
-Marvel Scale (MIGHT work, as our poke has the potential to be bulky. Lack of SpD drop is meh though, and the effect of the status is not prevented)
-Natural Cure (useful against all status, but user can't swap into secondary moves)
-Poison Heal (Don't see this on a Dark/Ground type, would just be a super Breloom or something. It won't work well to stop the secondary)
-Shed Skin (I can see this working, but its luck based, and doesn't directly help to stop secondary moves)
-Klutz (Its cool, but Since people already decided on the Dark type to swap into Trick, take scarves and use Pursuit, it might not be the best, I still like it though. It could be a good 2nd ability for this poke)

After looking through that I would say the best option is Guts.
I also think Levitate is nice and Klutz, or Magic Guard have some potential if we give our poke the proper tools to use them w/o being broken or not being used for its job

EDIT: I don't really like the ability Sticky Hold, it doesn't really accomplish anything other than protecting against Trick, when Klutz could also do that and more, though it loses the ability to use beneficial items, Klutz could just be a secondary ability.

 

[ferron]

of course sticky hold can help this CaP, so i won't be redundant since it was already brought up.

one of my personal preferences is natural cure, as this poke will be forced out a decent number of times due to its weaknesses, this will help keep it fresh. also, the ability to switch into TS and spin them away (if it gets RS) without much hindrance is appealing to me.

shed skin is, to me, a lesser option than natural cure since you cannot choose when the status will go away. i can see it's appeal though.

marvel scale could be of use, solving massive problems on what may end up its weaker defensive side (not due to stats, but to weaknesses).

 

[Raj]

There seems to be some debate as to whether or not Magic Guard would br broken on such a CAP. I'm don't think this is a 'hit or miss'; there's a possibility for us to create an ability that offers some or similar benefits of Magic Guard without making it too powerful. For example, our Mon could be immune from all secondary damage except that which it inflicts on itself (ie: Life Orb, recoil). This route makes it so that there are not instances where it can play completely without consequence. Another variation could make it so that, alyhough perhaps statused, our Poke will not recieve ANY of the drawbacks (ie: no burn damage or halved Attack, no 1/4th Speed when paralyzed or 3/4 chance to attack, no immobilization from Sllep/Freeze. In this manner the Secondary is rendered useless not only against this Poke, but the team would receive partial benefit, too. How? In standard play exists Sleep Clause and Freeze Clause, which prevent more than 1 Poke from being immobilized by its respective status. So because CAP9 is asleep (but still posseses attaking ability) it prevents another Mon from being put to Sleep.

Sorry if my thoughts don't seem clear since I'm having to type from my Wii and can only see 1 line at a time.

 

[familyguyman]

I have 2 ideas:

Trace
This will allow CAP9 to somewhat overcome weak defensive typing, switching in to Vaporeon or Heatran. It can also help switch in on Blissey, Starmie or Celebi and escape, free of Status. This will always keep the possibility of curing status open since it can always switch into the above to steal Natural Cure, later in the match. Trace will also allow the ability to somewhat take on Salamence or Gyarados, or at least double switch to help slow down a sweep. It also can really help switch in on Flygon, locked into Earthquake or come in on a Rain Dance team after a KO and take Swift Swim. Finally, it provides the cool possibility of a STAB Technician Pursuit, if it comes in on Scizor locked into Pursuit.


Custom Ability: Provoke
Description: Upon entering the field, any non-damaging move, used by the opponent, will have no effect. This includes the first turn.

This will allow CAP9 to be an awesome anti-lead, preventing Taunt and Stealth Rock on turn 1. It will also encourage many switches by the opponent. It will prevent any status on the switch in, as well as Trick, entry hazards, Recovery, weather, etc. Note that it won't stop Rapid Spin, so it's not a silver bullet for support moves. When combined with Pursuit, Sucker Punch, etc, CAP9 will be a mind game master while shutting down secondary moves left and right. It's essentially a one turn Taunt, but only on the switch.

 

[Ezekiel]

Quick Feet is another option that wasn't mentioned earlier. Could be useful if you know a Thunder Wave is coming--switch in CAP9, get the massive speed boost, then slap the foe silly or escape.

 

[Solstice]

The biggest problem with Magic Guard is that right now the Pokemon is already super powerful, the stat rating is excellent. The only reason Clefable isn't dominant OU is because of its stats. Immunity to ALL status, entry hazards, field effects, this thing would be the ultimate anti-stall machine, but I think it would be too broken for OU.

A better ability I believe would be Guts, Quick Feet, Poison Heal, or Marvel Scale. Guts is probably the best one in my opinion, gives the concept a powerful boost when it gets hit with any status, and because of the ground typing paralysis is almost nothing, excluding Body Slam. Burn doesnt affect attack, so the concept would have no issues switching into a Will"o"Wisp from Rotom-h, or any moves from Blissey.

Quick Feet is also like Guts, but the speed boost is less essential. The higher attack would be a better solution, because burn still lowers attack.

Poison Heal blocks all status if the Pokemon doesn't switch into a burn/sleep. But I think it would make for an overbeefed Breloom, even without Spore. A Poison Heal Pokemon switching into a Toxic from Blissey, hitting hard on the switch, and getting 12-18% back if it has leftovers could be incredibly broken.

Marvel Scale could have some good aspects, namely the status block and the defensive boost, but it still loses attack from burn, my biggest issue here.

So, Guts gets my vote.

 

[Ezekiel]

@Solstice: Technically speaking, MagicGuard does not prevent status, at least not completely. You can still be burned/paralyzed and you'll still take the appropriate stat hit, you just won't become fully paralyzed. However, I agree that it's definitely a powerful ability, and I do think it would be better to use a toned-down custom version (such as the ones mentioned above) than to use Magic Guard.

And I don't really like Quick Feet all that much, I was just mentioning it since it had been left out. Guts seems like the superior ability (if we don't choose a custom, or even if we do choose a custom it could be a secondary offense-oriented ability).

 

[Naxte]

The biggest problem with Magic Guard is that right now the Pokemon is already super powerful, the stat rating is excellent. The only reason Clefable isn't dominant OU is because of its stats. Immunity to ALL status, entry hazards, field effects, this thing would be the ultimate anti-stall machine, but I think it would be too broken for OU.

However, Clefable isn't OU, and its stats are what they are. Thus, it's unknown just what exactly it's stats would have to be for it to be broken in OU. As a result, simply saying that giving this thing Magic Guard will make it broken is unfounded theorymon, as we don't actually have any clue if it would be enough to break it.

Plus, Clefable has a key aspect that we don't have to give to CAP9, in understandable fears of how it would make it too much: Clefable's movepool. Specifically, I'm referring here to the fact that Clefable has an instant recovery move, Softboiled (and Wish as well), under it's wing. If we on the other hand deny CAP9 instant-recovery moves like Recover/Softboiled/Wish/etc, then it will become much easier to wear down as compared to Clefable. Combine this with how CAP9 has five weaknesses (and not particularly rare ones at that) to Clefable's one, and how even with Magic Guard it will still be vulnerable to the Attack-drop of burn, and CAP9 stands a pretty good shot at being just fine in OU, IMO.

That said, I'm not exactly sure if we should give it Magic Guard. However, I don't think it should be an option that should be taken off the table, at least.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Shed Skin: Probably the best ability for our CAP. While at first it may seem like an inferior Natural Cure/Magic Guard, it has important advantages over these abilities. The most relevant advantage is that it will not necessitate that we switch our CAP in and out (as Natural Cure would). It allows us to remain threatening even if we get status'd on the switch; if a Rotom WoWs us, for instance, there's a 30% chance that it just wasted a turn, and therefore a 30% chance that it will take massive damage on the switch due to a full-power Pursuit. With Magic Guard, our damage drop is pretty much permenant, making us far less threatening. With Natural Cure, we need to switch out to negate it, and it's really not cool if our CAP is made to switch due to secondary effects.
There's also a 30% chance that Toxic Spikes are completely useless against this CAP, and a 50% chance that they only do 6% damage before being Shed. While Magic Guard effectively shuts down Toxic Spikes damage, Natural Cure might as well be Run Away as far as that aspect is concerned.
Shed Skin also has the advantage of not seeming "broken", and it's a fairly unique/cool ability.

Abilities I could also see working: Obviously Natural Cure and Magic Guard. In addition, Sticky Hold and Klutz allows us to completely shut down trick users, while Poison Heal and Marvel Scale turn status problems to our advantage. The latter in particular would have great synergy with Psycho Shift, if our CAP ends up getting it.

 

[Dogfish44]

An ability not being mentioned is Synchronise. Who would want to use a Secondary Move, and have it thrown back at them? Since most pokemon that have Natural cure use T-Wave for status, this could stop a high amount of Secondary effects.

Another ability for this Cap could be a custom ability : Storage
Whenever an opponent uses a move, the opponents pokemon takes set damage equal to 100 - moves base power (Base power 101 would heal the opponent 1 hp & non damaging would have 0 base power) In addition, CAP9 starts of every switch-in (Including Baton-Pass) at -1 defence and -Sp.Def

Storage would work on a lead the best, discouraging Stealth Rock/Taunt/Spikes/T-Spikes etc. The defense drop de-breaks it, also encouraging attacking and less secondary effects.

 

[Objection]

That storage idea sounds like it's encouraging the use of secondary effects, in particular the ones you mentioned. Most moves have a base power less than 100 so if an opponent used one of those, they'd lose HP that they would not have planned or wanted to lose. This would make opponents want to use indirect damage to beat CAP9 rather than direct damage.

EDIT: If zorbees' statement about the storage ability is true, could it please be added to the ability description to prevent further confusion?

 

[tennisace]

Just as a reminder, justify your ideas, especially if you're coming up with a new ability. A couple of the ones mentioned in the thread make absolutely no sense. In fact, I'd stay away from custom abilities all together, since in reality the concept can be achieved with already existing ones.

 

[zorbees]

With a completely Physical build bias, I feel as if an ability that can block/absorb the Burn status will come in handy for CAP9. This leaves Flash Fire, Poison Heal (in conjunction with Toxic Orb, it can block status by having another one), and Guts. Flash Fire doesn't do much for CAP9 other than blocking Burn. Poison Heal is nice but having to come in earlier is a bit of a turn-off, as is being almost forced to use the item slot for a Toxic Orb. However, blocking any status is nice. Guts doesn't prevent the damage from wearing down CAP9, but actually turns Burns, and other statuses, into a boost. I feel as if any of these three abilities are the best for CAP9, but my favorite is Guts. I like the ability to benefit from Burns, and the Paralysis speed drop isn't very much of an issue since it is immune to the main form of Paralysis in Thunder Wave. Guts also allows for item versatility, as you are able to use the Flame and Toxic Orbs, but are not forced to. I feel as if Guts is the most well-rounded of the Burn absorbing abilities, which I believe is important for this CAP to have.

EDIT: Objection, I think he is counting non-attacking moves as having 0 base power, meaning the user would take 100 damage. The defense drops also encourage direct attacks.

 

[ferron]

With Magic Guard, our damage drop is pretty much permenant, making us far less threatening. With Natural Cure, we need to switch out to negate it, and it's really not cool if our CAP is made to switch due to secondary effects.
There's also a 30% chance that Toxic Spikes are completely useless against this CAP, and a 50% chance that they only do 6% damage before being Shed.

its actually 51%, but that's not the point.

look, even if it has the 51% chance, would you risk it? none of us would risk a 50 acc attack, but you are willing to risk it on something that may cripple your poke? hell, you still only have a 65.7% chance to shed off status on the third turn. it made sense on Rev, since that was made to be bulky and could use it to shed off rest, but i can't see it being more useful than natural cure on this poke.

 

[FlareBlitz]

You're not thinking about what our CAP is actually meant to do.
Yes, Natural Cure has a 100% chance of eliminating a status problem, but as long as your CAP is actually in, it has a 0% chance of doing so.
Suppose you switch in on a Celebi and it Twaves you, then Leech Seeds you next turn while you taunt. Super, but you actually took entry hazard damage, leech seed damage, healed your opponent, and risk being fully paralyzed (thus taking more damage/healing your opponent). Now suppose you have Shed Skin. You have a 30% chance of losing your paralysis and taunting Celebi _immediately_ and forcing it out. Now if you don't shed your skin, that's okay too. You're still going to taunt it just as you would if you had Natural Cure, but now you have a 51% chance of shedding your skin. And when Celebi switches out and brings in something else, you have a 66% chance of losing your status and being able to deal with whatever comes in more efficiently. So ultimately, you're trading off a 100% chance to lose status on the third turn only if you switch out for a 30% chance to lose your status on every turn even if you stay in. Since our CAP has been made bulky enough to last multiple rounds against secondary users, it doesn't make sense to give it an ability that incentivizes it to switch out.

Also, if we're doing custom abilities, I have one.
Reverse Psychology: When an opponent uses Trick, Switcheroo, Skill Swap, Role Play, Confuse Ray, Taunt, Encore or Torment, this Pokemon manipulates the other Pokemon into experiencing the effects of that move. Essentially, this means that Trick, Switcheroo, Skill Swap and Role Play do nothing (as you give their item/ability right back to them automatically), while the opponent is Taunted, Encored and Tormented if they try to inflict those conditions on you. This ability does not work on Leech Seed or any visible status (Burn, Paralysis, etc)

 

[ferron]

wait...so you would switch in on something that is known to use t-wave and has a STAB SE attack with the hope that the 30% chance of your ability will go off?

 

[FlareBlitz]

Well, first off, let me say that my example is fucked because our CAP is immune to Thunder Wave (the scenario being one of the main reasons I argued for a part ground typnig).
Second, our CAP is as bulky as it is precisely so that it can survive STAB SE attacks and strike back with its own powerful STABs.
Third, it's much better relying on a 30% chance of an ability working while our CAP is in versus a 0% chance of it working.

 

[scampy]

Before I make my suggestion, I think it's important to address what CAP9 is already capable of without considering an ability.

Its Dark typing and physical bias allow it to make good use of Pursuit, thus severely hurting anything daring to try and Trick it. Ghost types are weak to the Dark type, allowing CAP9 to be a very effective Rapid Spin user. Ground typing grants CAP9 an immunity to Sandstorm damage and a resistance to Stealth Rock.

The main hole left is status. While CAP9 does have that immunity to Thunderwave, it is still affected by Poison, Sleep, Burn, and paralysis from non-electrical attacks. So, it's clear that our chosen abilities should be focused around status.

I dislike things like Magic Guard and Poison Heal, because then CAP9 will simply be sponging the status. Having a status sponge in OU is not going to discourage people from using things like Toxic and Will-o-wisp. CAP9 needs to be taking this status and turning it into a weapon. That way, using status can backfire and becomes a liability.

Potential abilities I see are,

Guts/Quick feet- Both fit extremely well with this concept. Nobody is going to want to be firing off Toxics if an OU Pokemon uses these abilities.

Synchronise- CAP9 does not need to directly benefit from status in order to punish people using it. Synchronise is a cool ability, and it's something we can always explore.

Personally I really like the idea of Synchronise for CAP9, but sadly it does not stop CAP9 from being inflicted by status itself (burn in particular). Additionally, Synchronise does not activate for the most crippling status of all, Sleep. As such, for a custom ability I would like to suggest a beefed up version of Synchronise...

Reflection- Whenever an enemy tries to inflict the user with status, the enemy is inflicted by that status instead.

I am rather terrible at wording, so let me give you an example. If Rotom uses Will-o-wisp on CAP9 with the Reflection ability, then Rotom will be the one to get burned, and CAP9 won't be affected at all.

I think this is fair, because it only makes CAP9's ability potent if the opponent choses to use status. Things like Guts and Poison Heal can be used through Toxic Orb, and Magic Guard allows you to abuse Life Orb- in other words, usable no matter what the opponent does, and thus not really discouraging the use of status.

 

[Raikaria]

My list is of three possible abilities.

Poision Heal: All CAP9 needs to do is come in on an attack with no effect, to be poisioned by Toxic Orb. It will then be getting double Leftovers recovery, helping it's somewhat weak defensive type. It will also be a status defence for the rest of the match. Poisioning Tricscarfers is also nice.

Marvel Scale: I know what you are thinking. However, this works in a similar way to Posion Heal, espcially as CAP9 dosen't sound like it'll be staying in long. Come in, get 1.5 defence boost, which will be helpful in boosting bulkyness, and become immune to status. Sure, damage per turn isn't good, but would yi rather Toxic damage, or reduced attack damage due to that 1.5 defence? I know which'll hurt less.

Guts: Enough said, really. See: Marvel Scale, but turn Defence into attack.

Special Mentions:
Natural Cure does not stop the secondary. Prevention is better than a cure, especially when you're benifiting from the prevention.

Synchronise gets special mention... for being a dreadful idea. Heatran uses Toxic sometimes, it's immune to it. Rotom dosen't mind a burn. Celebi and Blissey have Natural Cure. Most pokemon don't actually mind their own status, as long as they suceed in giving you one, especially as they can usually get rid of it/are immune to it.

EDIT:

Because people are still suggesting custom abilities, with rather little, or no, justification, I'll Quote this, so it's here TWICE:

Just as a reminder, justify your ideas, especially if you're coming up with a new ability. A couple of the ones mentioned in the thread make absolutely no sense. In fact, I'd stay away from custom abilities all together, since in reality the concept can be achieved with already existing ones.

May I suggest, that if you suggest a custom ability, that you have to justify why an already existing ability would not be viable. Why your ability over Guts/Poision Heal/Marvel Scale?

Many offenders are both before and after this post, a couple of who I'm slightly shocked at.

 

[petrie911]

I can think of no better ability for this Pokemon to have than Guts. Suddenly, Rotom can't just WoW your Pursuiter, since it faces the possibility of a STAB Pursuit coming off of a 1.5x boosted attack score (and, given the stat spread submissions, about 120 base attack). It makes getting rid of Rotom, or any other spin blocker, that much easier. Oh, and Guts boosted EQs/Crunches/Sucker Punches? It just adds to the fun. Toxic also becomes less appealing for a similar reason, and Toxic spikes, well, it switches in on the first layer, EQs your Tspiker, and now has 1.5x attack for 6% health a turn (assuming Lefties). Very fun.