CAP 3 CAP 3 - Part 9.5 (Main/Secondary Ability Poll)

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Dane said:
If you're so afraid of Heatran getting off a boosted Fire Blast or whatever, switch in another weather changer?
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two pokemon can auto change it tyranitar and hippodown, hippo is gonna take a huge hit from fire blast.The only other real weather user is kingdra who will have to take probably two boosted hits before it can change the weather.

So now we have a metagame of flash fire pokemon,kingdra and tyranitar.

Its gonna win and we end up trying it, but im scared that people who actually voted for this are actually gonna accept or not think a game where 8-10 pokemon get used isn't overcentralising. then we end up with a shitty metagame.
 
this is pointless, the stat spread was created to counter and be countered, now were just going to competely disregard that?

If carrying a weather changer has been suggested as a counter, I would say thats too much.
 
DougJustDoug said:
I must say your theorymon skills are beyond compare. Both of you quote this stuff like it is completely obvious. The only thing obvious to me is that you obviously have not done a CAP pokemon before. Because CAP history is littered with "predictions" like this that are stated as near-fact, that turn out to be completely false.
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We'll see if the countless predictions I made throughout the project are proven true or false. I'll fetch them up later and post them in one big post when we can finally playtest this Pokemon. (That is, of course, if Greenhouse does not win.)

Note how most of these proposed "theorymon" from previous CAP projects are for ideas that people thought would not be too powerful. My "theorymon" concludes that some things are too powerful.

I may have not done a CAP Pokemon before, but I have definitely made creations for a competitive..."system." That's mainly where my experience at anything within this project comes from. Well, that and a knowledge Pokemon.

On Revenankh, most people thought Air Lock/Moonlight was the superior combo to ShedRest. What did real actual non-theorymon playtesting reveal? ShedRest beats it by a MILE. So much so, that it borders on broken. How could all the oh-so-superior theorymon druids possibly miss this? Because, in the end, it is pure conjecture until it is playtested.
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Well, I can't say anything to this. True enough.

You have no idea how auto-sun will play in OU. Why do I know this? Because auto-sun has never existed in OU! So please spare me all your look-down-your-nose-on-us-befuddled-peons statements of fact and proof. Feel free to voice your vote, but don't make it sound like everyone else is a total moron for having a different opinion.
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Although it has nothing to do with DP: ADV - Level 1 Groudon/Kyogre. I played with a Drizzle team in OU for a while with my Level 1 Kyogre. Even there, in a metagame much less offensive than that of DP, the Rain Dance and Sunny Day teams of the time were incredibly powerful.

EDIT: "Feel free to voice your vote, but don't make it sound like everyone else is a total moron for having a different opinion."

I was pretty sure I apologized for being rude at the end of my post. -_-

I would like to repost this, because it seems like the only way to get my points across:

With an ability like “Greenhouse,” why are people even bothering with a secondary ability other than Scrappy? I think it’s obvious that if Greenhouse is chosen to be an ability, the second ability will become literally pointless with a powerful ability overshadowing it. =\

Also, why are people proposing Greenhouse, then proposing that the later CAPs can make up for it? I think that is a clear sign that it is too powerful. The CAP project was started so we can enhance and diversify the metagame, and while Greenhouse may diversify it, it is not merely “enhancing” our metagame. It is changing it into a completely different metagame.
 
Oh and people keep mentioning that the next CAP project can be dedicated to countering this pokemon if it becomes too powerful... or to move it to ubers

Does anyone else get really pissed off at the stupidity of that logic?

IF IT IS TOO POWERFUL WHY THE FUCK WILL WE MAKE ANOTHER POKEMON TO COUNTER IT WHEN WE CAN JUST CHANGE THE DAMN ABILITY!

Sorry for shouting but that really fucking pisses me off...

Yes let's create an even more broken pokemon to counter a broken pokemon, then so on and so forth until OU becomes dominated by those broken pokemon we created...
 
Dane, what are you referring to when you mention Kingdra's Rain Dance? If Kingdra had Auto Rain AND Drizzle...yes, it would be broken lol. I'm not using theorymon here either...I had a team structured specifically to set up Kingdra, and I can tell you of all the Pokemon in OU, Kingdra is by far the most powerful. However, what stops it from being broken is PRECISELY that one turn it wastes by setting up Rain Dance.

You can't compare an Auto Sun on this thing to Rain Dance on Kingdra. KIngdra needs to waste a turn, while this thing Fire Blasts right away.

I can even argue that this thing's combined bulk is as much of an advantage as Kingdra's increased Speed in Rain.
 
I have an idea:

How about we scrap Greenhouse now, and for our next CAP we make two ostensibly UU pokemon with Drought Jr. and Drizzle Jr. as our starting concept, and then build around there.

We can ever make it in teams, "Red team" vs. "Blue team," and see who makes the better pokemon >_>

One more thing, IF by some horrible nightmare Greenhouse passes on this, expect to see an approximate 300% increase in Heatran usage. Not only does Heatran perfectly cover this thing's weaknesses, it will switch in with already boosted fire moves, X2 if Greenhouse lures in a fire pokemon. Look for warring Timid Scarftrans with Earth Power.
 
I thought the point of CAP was make a metagame where all strategies become viable and we get a perfect 'balance'.
With this, we get much more viable sunny day teams. Balanced by a rain one that is just as viable.
That's interesting to me. I'm not saying fuck we need something to counter this.
I want a drizzle one next time to balance it and for the fun of it. We've never had much weather in OU, and I think I'd like to try it.

=/
 
What Aldaron said is basically true, this is the equivalent of giving Kingdra a 5 turn auto rain, and anyone who thinks that is not broken should really have no right to be discussing what gets into a competitive metagame.

Also love decks nights idea, people would use fucking deli bird if it had auto rain. So do you want one basically broken woodman or two very viable OU pokemon(woodman and a future auto sunny day user)
 
Deck Knight said:
I have an idea:

How about we scrap Greenhouse now, and for our next CAP we make two ostensibly UU pokemon with Drought Jr. and Drizzle Jr. as our starting concept, and then build around there.

We can ever make it in teams, "Red team" vs. "Blue team," and see who makes the better pokemon >_>
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Lol... UU

Let us look at that term.

Underused

Do you really think an auto-weather pokemon will be underused?

It would become Overused within the day, because it would benefit Kabutops, Floatzel, Kingdra, Ludicolo, etc... to no end.
 
Is benefiting Kabutops and UU/BL friends like that necessarily a bad thing?

EDIT: Don't be a smart ass and go lol KINGDRA UU? I'm talking specifically about Kabutops and other UU/BLS.
 
Logann said:
Is benefiting Kabutops and UU/BL friends like that necessarily a bad thing?
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Considering a Kabutops/Floatzel in rain can decimate an entire team I would say yes.

Also you did not read my post.

I never said benefiting them was bad. I said the pokemon in question would not be UU thanks to the amazing ability to make Kingdra/Floatzel/Kabutops (a rain team) fucking gods.

Rain teams would become the dominate force in OU (as other weather starters besides maybe Abama would be unable to switch into a STAB + Boosted water attack) and the auto-rain starter would be apart of every rain team... thus becoming an OVERUSED pokemon.
 
OK guys, I feel like this is getting a little too personal right now...

I think its funny that I (someone who loves instigating and "troublesome" issues lol) is asking for some control, but I feel like I have to.

Let's consider what we have right now...Auto Sun, but only for a limited time. OK. But obviously, debating this from the team perspective invokes much too much theorymon, something Doug has already shown to be very faulty when predicting anything.

So now we have this Fire / Grass Pokemon individually. What does Auto-Sun mean for this, specifically?

First, it certainly has zero drawbacks. So we can all agree that it is a positive, correct?

Now, it boosts a STAB. This is significant...but perhaps not gamebreaking, until you look at this thing's stat spread.

120 HP / 70 Atk / 105 Def / 95 SpA / 90 SpD / 60 Spe

This was designed specifically (well, first to be awesome lol) to have a few checks to ensure that it would not be completely broken.

Gengar and Staraptor could both switch into the maximum bulky versions of this and OHKO (possibly) with a Specs / Band SE STAB move, and others could at least serve as decent checks, if not counters (such as Hitmontop and Seviper).

This boost for Fire Blast effectively removes Togekiss, Crobat and Aerodactyl (Solarbeam being 120 BP and GK being 80 on it) from the counter list and removes pretty much the majority of the check list.

Throw me a bone here guys, lol, and try and stick to discussion on what this ability would mean for this Pokemon specifically. Let's try and avoid the team discussion, as it calls forth too much theorymon.
 
People will just use this guy solo and reap a ton of the benefits of sunny day, then possibly run heatran with it. That's a hell of a one two punch and those two are probably the most powerful SD'ers in pokemon. He makes sunny teams stronger, but he also just makes himself and heatran a standalone team... with four other strong pokemon.
 
Kira said:
Lol... UU

Let us look at that term.

Underused

Do you really think an auto-weather pokemon will be underused?

It would become Overused within the day, because it would benefit Kabutops, Floatzel, Kingdra, Ludicolo, etc... to no end.
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That's why I said ostensibly, e.g. they WOULD be UU were it not for the crazy ability from hell. See: Abomasnow (now #11 in leads for Shoddy Usage for March, 48 in Weighted Usage ...).

Really, the fact a pokemon with as many weaks as Obamasnow and mediocre speed is just proof auto-weather is ridiculously powerful. Therefore we should be aiming to create Abomasnow's with Sun/Rain, not Tyranitars.
 
Aki said:
I'm still dying to know why you people are all voting greenhouse.

Let's have a look at all the pokemon with a Sun boosting ability, or that significantly benefit from the sun:

Chlorophyll:
Bellossom
Exeggutor
Jumpluff
Shiftry
Sunflora
Tangrowth
Tropius
Victreebel
Vileplume

Leaf Guard:
Jumpluff
Leafeon
Tangrowth

Solar Power:
Sunflora
Tropius

Honourable Mention:
Heatran
Woodman
Typlosion
(Generic fire type sweeper)

Crap.
Jumpluff under sun has enough speed to outspeed Neutral 252 SCARFED DEOXYS-E and 1 SPEED BOOST JOLLY NINJASK.

Shit.

Tangrowth says fuck you shits because he either recieves a doubled speed or gets a semi-hydration.

Not to mention that Specs Heatran now has a 591 SpA and a 270 power fire blast to work with. That's more then Explosion ffs.

Woodman itself has a 226 (no ev's, neutral nature) SpA, and it also has a 270 power fire blast, as well as a 180 power turbo charged SolarBeam.

Need anymore proof?
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All you did was name a bunch of Pokémon that were stuck in UU. If anything, this'll decentralise the meta by adding somemore pokes to OU. And is it just me or does no one seems to be looking past OU for counters.
 
Please no.

For the record, I want Greenhouse to be on the switchout at least. No because I want auto-sun out of OU, but just because of how much it benefits this pokemon.

If we decide not to do greenhouse, I do like Deckknights idea, next time.
 
Not at all because you find the things that countered them and made them UU are generally not counters anymore when the pokemon have a combination of increased speed/special/extra stab/removed weakness.
 
latinoheat said:
Also is this stupid fucking trait extended by items
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1 FUCKING ITEM FOR 1 TURN! Hell leftovers can extend a Pokémons life for about 3 turns if used correctly. And shit like Breloom gets double the benifit from toxic orb, which also makes it immune to any other status, and has a 100% sleep move.
 
Aldaron said:
Listen, while I actually think Auto Sun is broken in OU, I am 100% willing to test it out...so long as somehow this specific Pokemon does not get it for itself when it switches in.

If Greenhouse was something like "upon switching out, 4 turns of Sunlight are produced" or something to that effect, I'd be 100% willing to try it out. The problem is, auto Sun for this removes so many direct counter and check strategies. Auto Sun even causes Zapdos, arguably the best indirect counter, to think twice about switching in.
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I think you are making two very good points. Will auto-sun make this specific pokemon too powerful? Maybe. I agree that it has a ton of bulk, and with sun, you kick it's offenses into high-gear. Will that yield a broken result? Maybe it will. I think there have been some very convincing arguments stating this.

I think it is extreme to think that sun alone, makes this thing too powerful. Would you argue over giving it the move Sunny Day? I doubt it. Every fire pokemon in existence gets the TM. It has the bulk to take a hit. If all it needs is sunshine to become an irresistible force, then it can use Sunny Day as a pseudo-NastyPlot and sweep away. I really doubt that would happen. If that were true, then Heatran would sacrifice a slot for Sunny Day and dominate everyone with his irresistible sun-boosted Fire Blast. When was the last time you saw Heatran fire off a Sunny Day? Never.

I agree that auto-sun makes this beefy pokemon more powerful. But not astoundingly better than it can already be if it uses Sunny Day by itself. The moveslot and the setup turn are a big difference -- but not an "OMG the metagame is completely changed!" difference.

If Heatran is so incredible in sun, why don't people use it like they use Kingdra? Let some other poke setup sun and let Heatran do the heavy lifting. If all it needs is Fire Blast, then ScarfTran in sun would rule the metagame. It hasn't happened. The closest I've seen was the GrowthTran combo a while back. That never caught on. I think there is reason for this. I think that sun is inherently worse than rain. I've seen rain used by Kingdra, Floatzel, even Kabutops. Why no sun teams? None? I don't know exactly why, but playing results most certainly confirm it.

I think your proposed alteration to Greenhouse is yet-another viable way to nerf the ability if it is too powerful.
 
Deck Knight said:
Really, the fact a pokemon with as many weaks as Obamasnow and mediocre speed is just proof auto-weather is ridiculously powerful. Therefore we should be aiming to create Abomasnow's with Sun/Rain, not Tyranitars.
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We didn't have a shedrester before Rev, but we do have a couple auto weathers before this guy. We do know what giving him stats like this will do, at least about five times more accurately than Rev theorymon'ing.
 
After running most of my calculation from these so called counters. He probably has only about 1, and that Tentacruel and Togekiss. Heatran can't even counter this thing. Heatran doesn't do a damn thing back to Leonin, while it gets it's HP drained from Leech Seed. If you max HP and may Special Defense or Defense, this thing will be a bitch to bring down, believe me. Tentacruel can Sludge Bomb it, even though no one runs it. Togekiss can Air Slash and hope for a flinch and probably Roost before it gets hit with HP Rock. If Leonin Leech Seeds Togekiss on the switch though, it could be trouble.
 
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