CAP 3 CAP 3 - Part 9.5 (Main/Secondary Ability Poll)

[Deck Knight]

Please. All of these people screaming that Greenhouse is broken are ignoring something-the pokemon itself is what is broken. If we do not give it Greenhouse, then guess what? Heat Rock Zong will produce sunshine for it, lasting for 6 turns, not 5. It also gets an ability like Rock Head to do damage from both sides of the spectrum. It then procedes to sweep the whole team in the 6 turns of sunlight. The only thing I can see stopping this is taunting the Zong before it pulls off the SD. Also, I would like to know how much damage FB will do to Blissey(too lazy to do it myself). If it isn't a 2ko, then Blissey stops Greenhouse Woodman, because it has the Sp. Def to stall for the 3/4/5 turns Greenhouse is in effect. Woodman can do little back(although I can imagine FB will hurt), as it cannot Flare Blitz or Wood Hammer a Blissey without killing itself. And Bliss will Softboil the damage off, or Wish/Protect to burn off Greenhouse's effects sooner. I don't know the moves it will have, but if it does have a fighting physical move(brick break), it doesn't have the attack to OHKO standard blissey(I think). And don't say having Blissey counter it is overcentralizing, 99.9% of the teams I face have a Blissey anyways. Of course, all of this is based on FB not KOing and physical moves not KOing either, which I have not done calcs for(and I don't know what physical moves it gets either), so this may not be 100% true.

Heat Rock Zong draws in Fire types like the plague, and so does this. Fire types counter this (unless we give it Flash Fire or Heatproof) cold, especially with a free gift of Sunny Day. Heck, even Salamence and Garchomp wouldn't mind coming in to make use of a boosted Fire Blast.

Your analysis only works if you assume Blissey is the only counter, which it isn't. Fire types rape both this and Bronzong hard, because if Bronzong is setting up Sunny Day, it isn't using EQ. If it isn't EQ'ing, it just made itself flamebait. This thing has decent defenses, but it can't take two STAB Fire attacks from any Fire pokemon, bar maybe Torkoal and Magcargo.

Also, try using the enter key, so your posts aren't walls of text.

 

[chronostrike]

Leaf Guard for sun use

Rock Head to make physical worth using

 

[The.Lost.Hylian]

Greenhouse and Sniper.

 

[oshada]

Rock Head, main, and Chlorophyll, secondary.

 

[Aki]

RIGHT.

This has turned into a fucking flame war.

Let's get this party started and take a huge fucking look at every single ability that we're voting on.

Battle Armor - Pokémon with this ability cannot be hit by critical hits.

Arguably the 3rd most broken ability respectively after Greenhouse and Solar Power. This thing is the Epitome of bulky, and with it this thing cannot be hit by a crit, making the god of Antihax. Not only does this leave it completely in theorymon (You can't cry "What about a crit!"), It ensures that everything is as it says it is EG CBTar's Stone Edge is ALWAYS a OHKO, Adamant 252 Tar's Stone Edge is ALWAYS a 2KO, CBWeavile's Night Slash is ALWAYS a XKO, ect. This appeases the Gods of theorymon by limiting the possible situations in what happens. However, from a hardcore battlers point, it makes it extremely frustrating if it comes down to 1vs1. Also, we'd need to limit the stat up moves we give it if this is chosen. Totally Viable.

Chlorophyll - Sun doubles the Speed of Pokémon with Chlorophyll. This is not a stat boost. If the sunlight ends or a new weather condition is brought into play, the Pokémon's Speed returns to normal.

Since this has turned into a bulky shit, this seems useless on the surface. However, with those 70/95 Offenses, it can still do some damage under the sun especially. For those wondering how this clashes with my view on Greenhouse, It or another pokemon has to waste a crucial moveslot on Sunny Day. But that's not the point. This ability allows it to Sweep decently, while not being totally broken. Totally Viable.

Flash Fire - When this Pokémon is hit by a Fire move, it takes no damage, and all Fire moves used by this Pokémon are 50% stronger. Further hits by Fire moves simply do no damage, they do not boost damage further. This power boost is lost upon switching out. Will-O-Wisp also activates Flash Fire. If a Pokemon with Flash Fire is frozen, when it is hit by a Fire move, it will be defrosted and take damage without boosting Flash Fire.

This originally was the ability to go. However, it seems that popular opinion has swayed against it due to the list of hypothetical counters. This not only removes a neutral offensive threat, it also neutralizes quite a lot of the counters hypothesized. That's bullshit. However, if we give it this, then the counters list will be revised. Totally Viable, Hinging on broken.

Greenhouse - Causes 5 turns of sun upon switching in.

This is the most controversial ability of the whole CAP so far, perhaps barring Mountaineer. This increases the viability of Sun teams so much that it's not funny. Just to recap my previous post:

I'm still dying to know why you people are all voting greenhouse.

Let's have a look at all the pokemon with a Sun boosting ability, or that significantly benefit from the sun:

Chlorophyll:
Bellossom
Exeggutor
Jumpluff
Shiftry
Sunflora
Tangrowth
Tropius
Victreebel
Vileplume

Leaf Guard:
Jumpluff
Leafeon
Tangrowth

Solar Power:
Sunflora
Tropius

Honourable Mention:
Heatran
Woodman
Typlosion
(Generic fire type sweeper)

Crap.
Jumpluff under sun has enough speed to outspeed Neutral 252 SCARFED DEOXYS-E and 1 SPEED BOOST JOLLY NINJASK.

Shit.

Tangrowth says fuck you shits because he either recieves a doubled speed or gets a semi-hydration.

Not to mention that Specs Heatran now has a 591 SpA and a 270 power fire blast to work with. That's more then Explosion ffs.

Woodman itself has a 226 (no ev's, neutral nature) SpA, and it also has a 270 power fire blast, as well as a 180 power turbo charged SolarBeam.

That just makes stuff cheap. However, people are claiming that it is distinctly not broken as it only provides a hypothetical 3 turns of sun. However, it frees up the Moveslot needed for Sunny Day. On a Sunny day/Trick Room/Rain Dance/Gravity team, you usually need 2 providers of the appropriate move. However, this is proven null and void now. This thing is Extremly bulky, and it just has to switch in and out to provide gamebreaking sunlight, not to mention the rest of the team can use the appropriate full and proper movesets. Because this thing is slower than Tar, it can run -speed, below Boah, and guarentee the sun. On top of that, it allows Woodman to run a full movepool (Think Fire Blast/(SubSeed/Restalk)/(SolarBeam/GK) ), instead of compromising it for a Sunny Day and denting in the moveset. Broken, Unviable.

Heatproof - Fire attacks deal 50% less damage against this Pokémon, and Burn does 1/16 max HP per turn, rather than 1/8.

See the point for Flash Fire. Totally Viable, Hinging on broken.

Intimidate - Lowers the enemy's Attack 1 stage on entering the battlefield. Affects both opponents in doubles. Activates even if gained through Trace, Skill Swap, or Role Play. When a Pokémon with this ability is first in the party, wild encounters have a lower chance of occurring.

X-act put this perfectly. After an intimidate, this thing is bulkier then Regirock. It has 75/200 defences, ffs. It also neutralizes CBTar's band and makes that OHKO a 2KO. It sorta seems to fit, but it's just too bulky to take advantage of it without being broken. Viable, Hinging on broken.

Leaf Guard - Opponent-induced burn, paralysis, poison, and sleep are blocked while Sunny Day is in effect. This does not prevent those inflicted by the user (such as sleep induced by Rest), and it does not heal status effects that are already present when Sunny Day is used.

Like Chlorophyll, people claim that this is going to be broken. However, also like Chlorophyll, for it to take effect you have to compromise the team. See Chlorophyll. The only concerns i've got with this is it becomes immune to HaxKiss's T-Wave under the sun, and TS. Totally Viable.

Pressure - Moves that affect this Pokémon (including Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Stealth Rock) lose 1 extra PP per turn.

I really don't see how this seems to fit. However, taking a neutral point of view, i must point out the advantages and disadvantages. If we decided to follow through with SubSeed, this becomes the new master of Stall (It says fuck you Cradily due to substitute.), and we now have a high% counter to Blissey. But these also add to it's disadvantages: It just seems to have too many good points (SubSeed, Blissey Killing, ResTalk, ect) to give it this free "Fuck you, if you want stall i'll give it too you". We've gotta nerf the potential movepool if this gets in. Totally Viable.

Rock Head - The ability-bearer gets no recoil if it uses a recoil move. This does not block Struggle's recoil, nor does it block the recoil from Life Orb.

Woodman@CB
252/252 Hp/Attack, Adamant
Rock Head
-Wood Hammer
-Flare Blitz
-Double Edge
-Head Smash

Quite a simple set. Using the innate Bulkiness of woodman, we can use the CB and 120 Base power moves to great effect. Wood Hammer and Flare Blitz for stab. Double edge to abuse the ability. Head Smash rewards you for putting enough trust in the Gimmick set, but like many others once you've been found out you're easily countered. Totally Viable.

Scrappy - This Pokémon is able to hit Ghost-type opponents with Normal and Fighting moves, at normal damage. Other resistances still apply (a Fighting type move would still be not very effective on Gengar due to its Poison typing).

This was brought up for Rapid Spin. Personally, i see no use for it barring said Rapid spin, because we're not giving it strong Fighting/Normal moves, nor the attacking stats to use it. However, it is in no way broken. Totally Viable.

Sniper - When this Pokémon scores a Critical Hit, damage is multiplied by 3 instead of the standard 2.

SPARTAN LASERS!

Seriously though, this thing is totally viable, provided that we don't go out of our way to give it an armarda of Crit hit moves. It allows it to utterly break Bulky Steels/Waters/Ground (haha fuck you CMCune) while not being utterly broken. Totally Viable.

Solar Power - When Sunny Day is in effect, this Pokémon loses 1/8 HP per turn, but Special Attack is increased by 50%.

oshitno.

This thing is the second most debatable ability, after Greenhouse and before Battle Armour. It seems to be a fair trade off, but X-Act has posted a posted a whole thing against it. After reading it, and re-re-reading it, i've agreed with it. Totally Viable, Hinging on broken.

My opinion and thoughts, combined with a neutral look and Review of every ability. Happeh nao?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Primary: Leaf Guard
I believe I mentioned in the discussion topic that I'm biased towards Sun-related abilities, and Leaf Guard seemed like the one least likely to draw criticism. That, and I needed a status absorber. <_<; But I do want to give it one offensive and one defensive ability. Guess which one this is.

Secondary: Solar Power
The offensive ability (and not the kind that your grandmother doesn't like to hear). It was close between this, Chlorophyll, and Rock Head, but I'm about 95% sure that when the typing was first chosen everyone was contemplating a useable Sunny Day-oriented Pokemon.

Basically I wanted this thing to have two equally viable abilities that would be chosen based on whether one wanted to use it's offensive or defensive capabilities. Here's hoping... *crosses fingers*

While I'm thinking about it, what's the distinction between primary and secondary abilities, anyway? Or to phrase it better, why do we need to distinguish between the two? ?_?

 

[Sunday]

I don't think the Greenhouse 5-turn Auto sun would really be that broken, expecially when you start factoring in switching into SR every time and things like that. Like all these Pokes, it's hard to tell until we start playtesting it. And again like every time, new counters emerge once we more fully get our heads around the concept of this Pokemon. I honestly don't see how you can be doing calcs yet as we don't even have a full movepool.

 

[oshada]

Wow, Aki, that was the most comprehensive post I've ever seen. And the Rock Head moveset is awesome...

 

[Aki]

@Sunday: Actually i didn't run calcs. I am assuming that it is given SubSeed, Rest, Fire Blast, Sunny Day, Grass Knot, Solarbeam, the physical Rock Head moveset. All are totally viable, logical and have been discussed (Excepting Head Smash, but i actually put some reasoning behind it if you care to read it).

@oshada: You havent seen anything until you've seen the discussions between me and DJD about Religion and Antimatter.

 

[Sunday]

I was refering to posts a few pages back about running calcs and finding only one Pokemon countered it actually, but yes it was quite a broad statement.

EDIT: IMO the best Rock Head moveset will be mixed Scarfers :)

 

[Hyra]

Uh, Hyra, I didn't say it could OHKO most of the metagame :X

I said that its potential counters and checks are no longer potential counters and checks.

Okay.... those were the few Pokemon who could stand up to it in the first place. I guess replacing OHKO'd with 2HKO'd does the job. Blissey and maybe Snorlax are the only things that can stand up to this with auto-sun. (I'm not including anything that can potentially get hit with a SE Hidden Power, those are iffy counters at best.)

Considering how much damage it does without Sun, adding Sun for any length of time is a pretty large boost.

 

[Captain]

It may hit harder, but so do Fire types that are against it. This pokemon only has 60 speed.

 

[Aki]

Since fire types constitute the main list of counters, you'd switch to your Heatran to take the fire move, or stay in and using the bulkiness proceed to HP Rock for the OHKO. Either way it's broken.

 

[Hyra]

It may hit harder, but so do Fire types that are against it. This pokemon only has 60 speed.

I specifically said excluding those who are hit SE by a Hidden Power. Both HP Rock and HP Ground hit Fire-types SE. If I wanted to hit both Moltres and Heatran SE at once I could run HP Water. Most Fire-types do not have the SDef to take repeated SE attacks.

 

[X-Act]

Leaf Guard and Rock Head.

I really want Greenhouse, I really do. But not on this Pokemon. I want Greenhouse on an Abomasnow-ish stats Pokemon.

 

[TaiwaneseDude]

Main: Greenhouse. Fits the theme perfectly.

Secondary: Chlorophyll. It looks pretty slow, there aren't a lot of fast fire sweepers (and grass as well). besides, it gets sun benefits along with the x2 speed, so yeah.

 

[PK Thunder]

Main Ability: Leaf Guard
Secondary Ability: Chlorophyll

just chose the sun abilities, then this poke could just abuse the sun either offensively or defensively

 

[Aki]

I have a strong feeling that the last 2 posts have not been keeping up with the discussions going on in the last threads, and also have not read my post. We're not picking favourites, we're picking logical choices that reflect the Art, Base stats and role this is to perform

Killing Bulky Waters/Grounds/Steels to clear the way for a powerful stat upper sweep.

 

[Captain]

I specifically said excluding those who are hit SE by a Hidden Power. Both HP Rock and HP Ground hit Fire-types SE. If I wanted to hit both Moltres and Heatran SE at once I could run HP Water. Most Fire-types do not have the SDef to take repeated SE attacks.

HP water's damage is cut in half under the sun.

 

[Kira]

This may be minor, but HP water's damage is cut in half under the sun.

That isn't minor at all... think

A SE hit is basically multiplying the damage by two...

Now let us do this simple equation... 10 x 2 = 20

So instead of 10 you will do 20 damage against a fire type using a water attack

Now let us add sun, which cuts water damage in half

2 divided by (10 x 2) = 10


So now we are doing the same amount of damage we would do to a normal type.

OH WAIT! THAT MEANS: A water attack will do neutral damage to a fire type in the sun. Meaning that while it might say the attack is SE the damage output will not reflect that fact.

 

[devoninja]

Leaf Guard
and
Rock Head

Leaf Guard is a nice somewhat beneficial trait that doesn't necessarily come into play very often. Much like most of the abilities that pokemon have. Most pokemon aren't made a lot stronger or a lot better at a certain task by their abilities (Think Weavile, Skarmory, Starters, or Lucario) but they help in the right situation. This is a good ability that doesn't let this pokemon abuse sun to wreak havoc, but does give it a sun-related benefit which might inspire a sun-themed team.

I was initially against Rock Head but I'll vote for it because it's pretty popular and it's not Auto-Sun. It also does compliment this poke nicely.

 

[DougJustDoug]

Automatic permanent weather will make just about any pokemon viable. Abomasnow is a great example. It's less than 500 BST, has horrible weaknesses, BUT is the only provider of guaranteed Hail --- and it is currently #50 on the Shoddy usage charts. Take Snow Warning away, and Abomasnow falls to UU or worse.

However, does that mean that a powerful Abomasnow would be broken? I don't think so. Would Abomasnow be used more? Of course. If Abomasnow was 600 BST with less weaknesses, would Hail teams be more prevalent? Of course. Would they ruin the metagame? No.

Tyranitar is 600 BST, has great typing, and has one of the best movepools in the game. Take away Sandstream, and Tyranitar is still a complete and total beast. With Sandstream, it is currently #5 on the usage chart. Is it broken? No. It's one of the best pokemon in the game, but it's not broken.

This pokemon, even with permasun (which isn't an option) would not devastate the metagame just because it gets a weather ability. It might be high OU, but it takes a LOT to be broken. I think it's dubious predicting what pokemon will even make it to the upper echelons of OU. A lot of very smart people thought Rhyperior was obscenely overpowered with abusive stats and a ridiculously tailor-made ability that would make it the toast of OU play. Look how that worked out....

People STILL think Syclant is obscenely broken. Yet, I have asked many, many times for proof of Syclant's ability to "sweep a team" -- and not one person has supplied proof. For ALL the genious naysayers, no one has been able to come up with a single battle log that shows a Syclant sweeping a well-played opponent. Everyone talks big and smart in therymon. But, when called to the mat to actually PROVE their claim -- guess what? Everybody gets awfully quiet. I personally want to change some things with Syclant, but it's not because it is dominating the metagame to the point of centralization.

And for anyone saying this controversy is anything new -- it's not. People freaked out over Shiver/Mountaineer during the Syclant ability discussion. Mountaineer has been an irrelevant concern in playtesting.

People shrieked that we dared to give Rayquaza's signature ability to a Fighting Ghost. Combined with Moonlight on such a bulky pokemon, it was roundly considered ridiculous. It's not even discussed in the playtesting thread, since ShedRest is the overwhelming choice for Revenankh.

What would happen with Greenhouse? I don't know, and neither does anybody else. But this is nothing new here at the CAP project. I personally would love to find out who's wrong and who's right, and make adjustments from there.

 

[Captain]

My point was completely valid but someone rejected because I used the wrong wording. What I meant was cutting HP Water's power in half seems kind of minor compared to Fire types generally lacking sdef to take repeated SE hidden powers. HP Ground/Rock will hit most fire types, anyway.

 

[Hyra]

That isn't minor at all... think

A SE hit is basically multiplying the damage by two...

Now let us do this simple equation... 10 x 2 = 20

So instead of 10 you will do 20 damage against a fire type using a water attack

Now let us add sun, which cuts water damage in half

2 divided by (10 x 2) = 10


So now we are doing the same amount of damage we would do to a normal type.

OH WAIT! THAT MEANS: A water attack will do neutral damage to a fire type in the sun. Meaning that while it might say the attack is SE the damage output will not reflect that fact.

Okay, slip-up on my part.

The point still stands that HP Rock hits all Fire-types neutral and that you can run HP Ground if you feel like screwing Heatran over. I think Heatran will have more fun switching into an immunity/4x resist than the Dragon or Fire Fliers will simply because Heatran doesn't have to worry about taking Sunny Day boosted Fire Blasts himself. The Dragon/Fliers will probably die to Sunny Day Fire Blasts before they can kill this guy, but for the Fire/Fliers its a coinflip. Turning the Fire Resist into a (.5 x 1.5) = 75% power move isn't too shabby.

Edit @ Doug:
Permasun would work, it just doesn't feel right. It's like an afterthought. But you aren't even giving it Permasun. This ability feels very contrived just to get votes for a weather ability. I would gladly make weather pokemon, but with a goal of actually doing that. Weather isn't an afterthought (except for TTar, he existed before abilities), it's almost the entire focus of every Pokemon with them (besides TTar, he would probably prefer a second ability so he could go on more teams without hurting them).

 

[Sunday]

Agreeing with Hyra in a way, Tar would often prefer no Sandstream and I think in the case of this pokemon too Sun is definitly a double edged sword.