CAP 3 CAP 3 - Part 9.5 (Main/Secondary Ability Poll)

[Jace the Mind Sculptor]

Everyone is arguing over this new 5-turn Sunny Day being broken. But what ever happened to the debates on Solar Power. I think that Solar Power effectively achieves what Greenhouse, yet being *less* broken. Lets compare the two:

Greenhouse: Woodman gets a 1.5* increase in Fire Attacks for the next 5 subsequent turns; Removes/creates the current weather as Sun which allows for many other pokemon to benefit from it; Ultimately, this ability skyrockets Sunny Day teams. I doubt it will completely ruin the curren tmetagame, but it will sure make it difficult to prepare for both Sunny Day teams and Sandstorm teams.

Solar Power: Woodman gets 1.5* increase in its Sp. Attack only when the Sun is up. This Ability truly is perfect. Essentially, Woodman optimizes the typing and stats in order for an Ability for Solar Power to work competitively, yet not be uber. You see, this pokemon most often already comes in with 25% less HP due to stealth rock.

Also, it takes one turn to set up that Sunny Day. Not only does that limit its moveslot to only 3 moves, but that one turn of set up allows for an opponent to just switch to a counter. *Wait a minute, how slow is this pokemon again?* That's right. His stats and *checks* are perfect. Since he is slower than his counters, even with the sun up, he gets threatened indefinately by the counter switch in.

Honestly, I dont see how so many people in this thread are advocating Greenhouse when it is clear that Solar Power does everything Greenhouse does (by promoting the rise in Sunny Day teams), yet not making this extremely broken or changing the metagame indefinately.

 

[Aldaron]

Cute, do you mean with or without Sun? Togekiss, Tentacruel, Aerodactyl and Crobat are decent counters without Sun.

It's that boost to Fire Blast that turns 3HKOs to 2HKOs and makes them very shady as potential counters.

 

[Jace the Mind Sculptor]

Yes but they switch in during the Sunny Day. Thus they come in unharmed, which is more than you can say with Greenhouse which requires 0 turns of set up. Aero, Crobat, and Tenta can all come in on the Sunny Day at least threaten a switch. Even if Woodman decides to take the hit and attacks, it safe to assume that after 25% less from stealth rock, at least 50% from the counter's attack, and the 6.25% from Solar Power, Woodman is dead next turn. Remember its speed is only 60.

 

[Hazmat]

I think it is extreme to think that sun alone, makes this thing too powerful. Would you argue over giving it the move Sunny Day?

Who knows?

This thing is really strong, strong enough to make sunny teams viable without being the sunny day starter. I guess no one is sure how things turn out, but why can't this thing be the receiver of sunny days, but just not the sunbringer of death?

 

[Deck Knight]

I think you are making two very good points. Will auto-sun make this specific pokemon too powerful? Maybe. I agree that it has a ton of bulk, and with sun, you kick it's offenses into high-gear. Will that yield a broken result? Maybe it will. I think there have been some very convincing arguments stating this.

I think it is extreme to think that sun alone, makes this thing too powerful. Would you argue over giving it the move Sunny Day? I doubt it. Every fire pokemon in existence gets the TM. It has the bulk to take a hit. If all it needs is sunshine to become an irresistible force, then it can use Sunny Day as a pseudo-NastyPlot and sweep away. I really doubt that would happen. If that were true, then Heatran would sacrifice a slot for Sunny Day and dominate everyone with his irresistible sun-boosted Fire Blast. When was the last time you saw Heatran fire off a Sunny Day? Never.

I agree that auto-sun makes this beefy pokemon more powerful. But not much better than it can already be if it uses Sunny Day by itself. The moveslot and the setup turn are a big difference -- but not an "OMG the metagame is completely changed!" difference.

I think your proposed alteration to Greenhouse is yet-another viable way to nerf the ability if it is too powerful.

Heatran using Sunny Day has neither Specs not Scarf. The reason you don't see Heatran using Sunny Day:
"User switched in Heatran!
"Opponent used *attack*"
"Opponent switched in Garchomp/Tyranitar/other faster/sufficiently defensive Heatran counter (or a Scarftran)!"
"Heatran used Sunny Day!"
The wild Heatran fled...

Seriously Doug, you are heavily underrating the saved turn you gain from an auto-ability, and the boosting item you can't use if you want to invoke Sunny Day.

Oh, btw. I think totally broken crap like Greenhouse is the precise reason we have Topic Leaders, in order to strike down broken crap before we get saddled with it.

 

[SgtWoodsy]

Primary Ability: Battle Armour
Secondary Ability: Rock Head

I'd like to see more Sunny Day use in Pokémon, and Greenhouse is perfect for that.

I'd also like to see an Auto-Rain Pokémon to balance this thing out, though.

 

[Hazmat]

Yes but they switch in during the Sunny Day. Thus they come in unharmed, which is more than you can say with Greenhouse which requires 0 turns of set up. Aero, Crobat, and Tenta can all come in on the Sunny Day at least threaten a switch. Even if Woodman decides to take the hit and attacks, it safe to assume that after 25% less from stealth rock, at least 50% from the counter's attack, and the 6.25% from Solar Power, Woodman is dead next turn. Remember its speed is only 60.

Most of those guys get hit pretty hard by SR too.

 

[Jace the Mind Sculptor]

Yes, but thats besides the point because Woodmans ability has nothing to do with that. >_>

 

[Kira]

Primary Ability: Greenhouse
Secondary Ability: Battle Armor

I'd like to see more Sunny Day use in Pokémon, and Greenhouse is perfect for that.

I'd also like to see an Auto-Rain Pokémon to balance this thing out, though.

Sorry but if we were to make a 100000 BST pokemon there is no need to try and balance it out with an equally powerful pokemon when we could just not make a ridiculously overpowered pokemon in the first place.

In fact according to your logic Kyogre should not be Uber because we have Groudon to balance it out.

 

[Dane]

two pokemon can auto change it tyranitar and hippodown, hippo is gonna take a huge hit from fire blast.The only other real weather user is kingdra who will have to take probably two boosted hits before it can change the weather.

Why would Kingdra take two boosted hits? He'll only ever take one, unless you randomly don't switch to him immediately. A lot of other Pokemon can change the weather too. In fact, did you realize Flareon has Flash Fire, a resistance to grass, 110 SpDefense, AND the ability to Rain Dance? Moltres can Rain Dance too.

So now we have a metagame of flash fire pokemon,kingdra and tyranitar.

Not really. It's no different than having a counter for pretty much any other set-up Pokemon.

If carrying a weather changer has been suggested as a counter, I would say thats too much.

You must not have been paying attention for the last few threads, because Tyranitar (a weather changer) has been suggested as a counter for a while.

Although it has nothing to do with DP: ADV - Level 1 Groudon/Kyogre. I played with a Drizzle team in OU for a while with my Level 1 Kyogre. Even there, in a metagame much less offensive than that of DP, the Rain Dance and Sunny Day teams of the time were incredibly powerful.

Perma weather is different than 3-4 usable turns of weather.

With an ability like “Greenhouse,” why are people even bothering with a secondary ability other than Scrappy? I think it’s obvious that if Greenhouse is chosen to be an ability, the second ability will become literally pointless with a powerful ability overshadowing it. =\

That's why I voted my second vote for a defensive ability. Greenhouse isn't very defensive outside of water resist.

Dane, what are you referring to when you mention Kingdra's Rain Dance? If Kingdra had Auto Rain AND Drizzle...yes, it would be broken lol. I'm not using theorymon here either...I had a team structured specifically to set up Kingdra, and I can tell you of all the Pokemon in OU, Kingdra is by far the most powerful. However, what stops it from being broken is PRECISELY that one turn it wastes by setting up Rain Dance.

I'm saying, if Kingdra is so powerful in the rain, and this is being called overpowered (as a team ability), then why hasn't anyone done that much set up for Sunny Day? I'm not sure how exactly this would end up as a solo thing, but as a team thing it's not as strong as others are making it out to be.

I have an idea:

How about we scrap Greenhouse now, and for our next CAP we make two ostensibly UU pokemon with Drought Jr. and Drizzle Jr. as our starting concept, and then build around there.

We can ever make it in teams, "Red team" vs. "Blue team," and see who makes the better pokemon >_>

This could be interesting. I'd even say to restrict them to not being fire and water. One question though: would red team and blue team have unique members, or would they cross over?


It's the solo aspect that's hard to decide. I'm also very interested in this Red/Blue team idea.

 

[Lil Ant]

Cute, do you mean with or without Sun? Togekiss, Tentacruel, Aerodactyl and Crobat are decent counters without Sun.

It's that boost to Fire Blast that turns 3HKOs to 2HKOs and makes them very shady as potential counters.

I'm talking about with out without sun it doesn't make me a difference. Sure Crobat can Brave Bird it, but it won't do that much of a dent without a large amount of attack EV investment. But, with a large amount of attack invested, it means it won't be as defensive. Which in turns gets hurt by Fire Blast, a lot. Aerodactyl will probably fear HP Rock, not to mention SR while switching in, lets not forget if it tries to Roost, it can get hit with Grass Knot / Energy Ball etc.

 

[Zathura]

rock head
battle armor

just a thought, but if we gave this thing flash fire, the three CaP pokemon would complement each other bevery well

 

[Hazmat]

Yes, but thats besides the point because Woodmans ability has nothing to do with that. >_>

It could turn a 2hko into a 1hko, if you're going to include it on one pokemon, include it on the other so you don't create the illusion of total one-sidedness.

 

[Vandom]

Let me calm down.

I can see why people don't like Greenhouse. It gives a boost not only to fire types, but to many grass types also. But even if he is used to open, it's only really good for 3 turns.

1. Woodman would definitely be weakened, maybe even killed in the first two turns.

2. Stealth Rock hurts him and most other fires coming in.

3. Unless there is some new move that can kill 2 of your opponents pokes a turn, this thing will only be taking out 3 pokes, 4 at most.

And if you're really that worried, make the ability only activate once per battle.

 

[Aldaron]

Kira, he meant it boosts the Grass type, not necessarily its moves. By this, he could mean Grass Pokemon, many of which have Chlorophyll / Solar Power / Flower Gift / Leaf Guard.

 

[Vandom]

Which grass moves does it give a boost to besides Solarbeam? If one move is too many then wow....

Not just the move, but the abilities like Clorophyll and such.

 

[Deck Knight]

This could be interesting. I'd even say to restrict them to not being fire and water. One question though: would red team and blue team have unique members, or would they cross over?


It's the solo aspect that's hard to decide. I'm also very interested in this Red/Blue team idea.

To be honest I'd say it'd be more fun if they didn't have any crossover members, although that would be pretty hard to do since people always ignore instructions.

Maybe just for things that need to be submitted and approved like BST totals. It's probably infeasible since new people come all the time and probably won't read the OP, but it would be fun to try, and give a bigger group of people than normal have a larger say in the process.

Maybe if we had red and blue seperate sign-up threads that required you to put a link in your sig for verification or something. That way you'd have to actually join to be part of a team instead of the free-flow process we have now.

 

[DougJustDoug]

Who knows?

This thing is really strong, strong enough to make sunny teams viable without being the sunny day starter. I guess no one is sure how things turn out, but why can't this thing be the receiver of sunny days, but just not the sunbringer of death?

That might be true. But is this noticeably better than Heatran? Heatran has a boatload more SpAtk and is certainly bulky. If Heatran is just as good in the sun then why isn't anyone setting up Heatran? I honestly don't think the mere existence of a bulky Fire/Grass poke will cause people to use sun teams.

I think the earlier argument that Solar Power could be the perfect catalyst, that might be true.

I do agree that instant auto-sun on this poke is frighteningly powerful. But then again I could say that about a lot pokes already in the metagame. Giving an automatic Special Defense boost to Tyranitar, who in ADV was regularly argued to be uber -- that is unthinkable! Did it make Tyranitar an unstoppable force? It certainly made him a bigger pain-in-the-ass than he already was. But, it didn't bring the metagame to it's knees.

And neither will this pokemon. Even if we gave it straight-up Drought -- it would not destroy the metagame. People are being way too melodramatic when they suggest such a thing.

 

[Deck Knight]

That might be true. But is this noticeably better than Heatran? Heatran has a boatload more SpAtk and is certainly bulky. If Heatran is just as good in the sun then why isn't anyone setting up Heatran? I honestly don't think the mere existence of a bulky Fire/Grass poke will cause people to use sun teams.

I think the earlier argument that Solar Power could be the perfect catalyst, that might be true.

I do agree that instant auto-sun on this poke is frighteningly powerful. But then again I could say that about a lot pokes already in the metagame. Giving an automatic Special Defense boost to Tyranitar, who in ADV was regularly argued to be uber -- that is unthinkable! Did it make Tyranitar an unstoppable force? It certainly made him a bigger pain-in-the-ass than he already was. But, it didn't bring the metagame to it's knees.

And neither will this pokemon. Even if we gave it straight-up Drought -- it would not destroy the metagame. People are being way too melodramatic when they suggest such a thing.

Four words changed the presumed Uberness of TTar in DP: Close Combat; Focus Blast.

 

[Kira]

Oh oops... I will erase my post

 

[Hyra]

/mainvote Chlorophyll because I like Sun + Speed

/secondvote Battle Armor because I don't like auto-Sun


If we are going to do auto-sun, that is something that a) should not be nerfed like this and b) should be decided on from the beginning because auto-weather changes a Pokemon entirely.

Edit:
I do not think Greenhouse is broken. I just think it is bad implementation. 1) Drought is much cooler and fun to design around. 2) Aldaron has basically said that Greenhouse means this thing can OHKO most of the metagame without any SAtk. Sure, you can play around it, but we are not supposed to be making Pokemon like that. We might have messed up with Revenankh+ShedRest, but that does not give us justification to mess up with this one. Greenhouse actually follows both criticism of the past two CAP's: it tries to add stuff just to add stuff like on Syclant and makes a very powerful and bulky Pokemon like Revenankh. Also, each CAP is supposed to exist independently from the others, meaning we can't assume we will ever have auto-rain. Each Pokemon is being made to change the Standard Metagame, its just an offshoot that we create our own metagame.

 

[flygon493]

Please. All of these people screaming that Greenhouse is broken are ignoring something-the pokemon itself is what is broken. If we do not give it Greenhouse, then guess what? Heat Rock Zong will produce sunshine for it, lasting for 6 turns, not 5. It also gets an ability like Rock Head to do damage from both sides of the spectrum. It then procedes to sweep the whole team in the 6 turns of sunlight. The only thing I can see stopping this is taunting the Zong before it pulls off the SD. Also, I would like to know how much damage FB will do to Blissey(too lazy to do it myself). If it isn't a 2ko, then Blissey stops Greenhouse Woodman, because it has the Sp. Def to stall for the 3/4/5 turns Greenhouse is in effect. Woodman can do little back(although I can imagine FB will hurt), as it cannot Flare Blitz or Wood Hammer a Blissey without killing itself. And Bliss will Softboil the damage off, or Wish/Protect to burn off Greenhouse's effects sooner. I don't know the moves it will have, but if it does have a fighting physical move(brick break), it doesn't have the attack to OHKO standard blissey(I think). And don't say having Blissey counter it is overcentralizing, 99.9% of the teams I face have a Blissey anyways. Of course, all of this is based on FB not KOing and physical moves not KOing either, which I have not done calcs for(and I don't know what physical moves it gets either), so this may not be 100% true.

 

[OH NO]

Main- Battle Armor
Secondary- Sniper

Come on he has guns lol

 

[Captain]

Intimidate
Flash Fire

 

[Aldaron]

Uh, Hyra, I didn't say it could OHKO most of the metagame :X

I said that its potential counters and checks are no longer potential counters and checks.