Other Weather Effects(The First true test of the Cap project)

[Darkflagrance]

Yes, but it would have to give up an ability to do that. If you had an unblockable move version + an ability, that's quite a lot of power (assuming all other variables are the same).

It really depends on how integral the ability becomes to the pokemon.

If the ability remains free we could nerf the pokemon by giving it something like Truant, or if we decide to make it a true counter to spikes, as was being planned earlier by some other posters in this thread, rather than worry about making its typing Poison or Steel to resist Stealth Rock it could become Steel/Ground or Poison or Fighting with Levitate to avoid normal spikes.

Not all abilities are equally potent; leaving the ability free gives more freedom to those will participate in the process of creating the pokemon. Scrappy itself has more consequences beyond allowing Rapid Spin to hit Ghosts; who knows if allowing the CAP to use Tri-Attack on Gengar becomes potentially broken?

 

[Aki]

I counter with this

Still sucks balls that we need to have a spinner at all to make Offensive, non-support teams viable again.

I bet you weren't complaining when Revenekah basically made the pefect spin blocker seeing as it fit your stall team.

*Points to my most recent Offensive team that works extremely well without any support*

I actually made it with Dusknoir in mind. As revenankh progressed onwards, it indeed was a good fit. However, it is still extremly useable with Noir.

Why, on that note, do you want an unblockable spinner anyway? Is it really game over when your opponent lays SR Down?

 

[Mekkah]

Why is it so broken to guarantee the removal of Spikes etc? You are already using a move that does practically nothing else. Do you have to punish yourself further?

To throw another idea out there since Scrappy Rapid Spin doesn't seem to fly that well: how about a non-attacking Rapid Spin that you can Taunt to block? You would just need a faster Taunter now to guarantee it won't remove your entry hazards, but instead of having one type of Pokemon you have to use prediction to get your Taunter in in time.

 

[Aki]

Yes, you must punish yourself further.


And that's a good idea. *chucks support at mekkah*

 

[Time Mage]

I support the idea of a Ghost Rapid Spin. It would attract Blisseys like sugar attracts flies, though. But if we end up making this pokémon, giving it a good enough attack stat so it can 2HKO her with a STAB or fighting move, it can lead to some interesting mind games.

 

[Aki]

Staraptor says hi ;)

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

I support the idea of a Ghost Rapid Spin. It would attract Blisseys like sugar attracts flies, though. But if we end up making this pokémon, giving it a good enough attack stat so it can 2HKO her with a STAB or fighting move, it can lead to some interesting mind games.

Give the Ghost-type Rapid Spin to Revenankh, he looks capable of doing something like that.

Any comment on my idea of pumping up Rapid Spin and/or any Rapid Spin type move BP up to around 70 or so?

 

[Urza]

bad idea GT. rapid spin is burdensome on the poke that has it for a reason. same thing with knock off.

30 or 40, maybe. 70? no way.

 

[Time Mage]

Yes, I agree. Rapid Spin has a purpose, getting rid of entry hazards, and a side effect, doing damage. The side effect shouldn't be important.

Besides, it would ruin the fun of killing with RS: I remember when a Skarmory killed one of my pokes with Brave Bird, ending up with a 2% of HP. I switched in Starmie, and instead of using TB on it, I got rid of the spikes and SR with RS as well as killing Skarm. Pretty satisfying :)

 

[Grawl]

To throw another idea out there since Scrappy Rapid Spin doesn't seem to fly that well: how about a non-attacking Rapid Spin that you can Taunt to block? You would just need a faster Taunter now to guarantee it won't remove your entry hazards, but instead of having one type of Pokemon you have to use prediction to get your Taunter in in time.

This sounds interesting

 

[eric the espeon]

mmmm I like the idea of a Poison (Erode?) , Ghost (Phase Out?) or maybe Psychic (can't think of a name) type rapid spin, it would make it much harder to block rapid spin (even more so if the Pokemon also learned normal rapid spin), without giving you a 100% way to get rid of possibly 3-6 turns of setup in one go.

 

[Stall]

To throw another idea out there since Scrappy Rapid Spin doesn't seem to fly that well: how about a non-attacking Rapid Spin that you can Taunt to block? You would just need a faster Taunter now to guarantee it won't remove your entry hazards, but instead of having one type of Pokemon you have to use prediction to get your Taunter in in time.

I would support any of the following:

*Ground-type
*Ghost-type
*Poison-type
*Psychic Non-Attacking

Flyers, Normals, and Steels are already common enough, but I think having to carry a Dark-type Pokemon just to block Spin severely weakens a Stall-based team, hence the option to run Taunt instead.

 

[Deck Knight]

Rapid Spin just isn't that broken. Unless its carrier is a counter to the pokemon you switch it into, it takes one turn to switch in and another to Rapid Spin, It's at least one free attack for your opponent. Moreover, only this single pokemon would have unblockable Rapid Spin, and it would still take entry hazzard damage on the way in.

 

[Stall]

Yeah, I guess I'd accept an unblockable Rapid Spin as long as any two of the following are true:

*The carrier has weak overall stats/typing/movepool
*It does not threaten most walls/spikers
*It has no recovery outside of rest

 

[Deck Knight]

Yeah, I guess I'd accept an unblockable Rapid Spin as long as any two of the following are true:

*The carrier has weak overall stats/typing/movepool
*It does not threaten most walls/spikers
*It has no recovery outside of rest

The Mono Steel Type/Spread I mentioned earlier can't really take out walls not named Regirock or Regice, and won't do a damned thing to Forry or Skarm outside HP Fire, or HP Ice for Gliscor Even if it got Ice Punch it could still be EQ + Roosted into oblivion.

 

[eric the espeon]

I don't think we should make something that will always get rid of all entry hazards, I know some people don't like them but they are there for a reason, imagine how many more non lead sashers we would have without SR, and how would full stall teams do damage with no spikes, even Toxi Spikes helps by making poison types somewhat usable. Rapid Spin is blockable so that you can have a way to protect your many turns of setup, if a new Pokemon with unblockable becomes even slightly popular teams that use entry hazards for their main source of damage will cease to exist on the CaP server, getting rid of up to 6 tuns of setup with a single attack with no way to protect against is not fair.

Having a different type of rapid spin (ghost, poison, ground, psychic) would be fine, and poison even fits with the type that many people want the next Pokemon to be. I was thinking of the name "Erode" cos poison does include acid and acid would erode away spikes and rocks, Toxi Spikes would be absorbed anyway.

 

[Mekkah]

getting rid of up to 6 tuns of setup with a single attack with no way to protect against is not fair.

That's what they all say, and yet I do not see why it is so "broken" to guarantee getting rid of entry hazards. It's the whining about Greenhouse all over again: everyone "knows" it'll be broken before it is even tested. I'd rather let this unblockable Spin be tested before everyone draws their conclusions, so they actually have a solid ground for dumbing it down. We know we have plenty of options for that: removing Scrappy, then changing type, making it non-damaging, limiting the Pokemon using it, etc.

I also see a lot of people naming consequences which do not really seem to be all downside. What is wrong with stall teams becoming harder to use? Perhaps you should put some offense in your stall team, is that a lot to ask? It was a tradition in Advance to put at least one powerful Pokemon at the end of your huge stall chain to sweep the mess. For Stealth Rock, it allows for item versatility beyond the first turn with Focus Sash being more viable, it allows Moltres and Yanmega to be somewhat good, it allows Gyarados to wall better...

Really, why is it so logical that the lack of a really good Rapid Spinner is only for the good?

Of course, I will also be satisfied if we get an actual good Rapid Spinner, it doesn't even have to be unblockable. It's just that Starmie, Donphan, Claydol, Torkoal, Hitmonop and friends all have horrible flaws.

 

[eric the espeon]

Oh I agree that we need rapid spin to be available on something really good, and maybe harder to block, but I also think that the stall teams should have some way to stop it if they really want to. I mean investing 2 Pokemon slots in spin blockers is quite a large penalty to stop one spinner, many will not bother to run one.

I would like full entry hazard teams to be weaker but still remain viable.

 

[Dane]

I'd like to point out that the ground version is not a good idea. This would still allow ghosts to block all spinning, as long as it was a levitating ghost (which many are).


If we really wanted to test how powerful this is before starting a project based on it, we could theoretically take a current spinner, give it a new version of the move, and see if it's really too powerful.

I'd like to nominate either Blastoise, Sandslash, Hitmonlee, or Hitmonchan. Surely they're relatively weak enough to determine whether the change in type of spinning is overpowered or not.

 

[eric the espeon]

I'd like to point out that the ground version is not a good idea. This would still allow ghosts to block all spinning, as long as it was a levitating ghost (which many are).

meh.. good point. Ghost/Poison/Psychic it is then

If we really wanted to test how powerful this is before starting a project based on it, we could theoretically take a current spinner, give it a new version of the move, and see if it's really too powerful.

hmm... we could do that as a test, but i don't like changing new Pokemon, however if it s only temporary it could work.

I'd like to nominate either Blastoise, Sandslash, Hitmonlee, or Hitmonchan. Surely they're relatively weak enough to determine whether the change in type of spinning is overpowered or not.

nononono CaP will not make anything that weak, maybe Starmie or Forretress power at the least but not Sandslash. If we are going to test it like this we should use a Pokemon with similar power to what CaP has produced before, and will probably do again.

 

[chronostrike]

A poison type spin (call it Aqua Regia) doesn't have a huge effect since stall teams generally will run Forrey or Skarm anyway. We could also try an electric type spin. That would favor Hippo and Gliscor.

 

[jagged_angel]

I think an electric type Rapid Spin would work. It could even be an altered version of Charge which boosts the power of the electric move used next AND clears the field of entry hazards. Call it Dynamo or something.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

bad idea GT. rapid spin is burdensome on the poke that has it for a reason. same thing with knock off.

How is it a bad idea? You're telling me you actually like giving a Pokemon such a "burden" move in terms of base power? Nearly everyone wants unblockable Rapid Spin but no one want a Rapid Spin with like 60 to 80 BP, this logic does not compute.

Yes, I agree. Rapid Spin has a purpose, getting rid of entry hazards, and a side effect, doing damage. The side effect shouldn't be important.

How is dealing out some damage considered a "side effect". The removal of spikes and other entry hazards is the effect, not the damage. If doing damage was considered it's side effect did why give it an attack power if the first place? How is it that you feel increasing a move like Rapid Spin BP a bad thing?

 

[TekkenStorm]

Well GT theres no point in increasing Rapid Spin BP, so why do it?

Lets just leave Rapid Spin the way it is.

BUT if theres a reason to change them, then let it be but as i see it theres no point in increasing its BP.

 

[yoshi!]

How about a non-attacking Rapid Spin that you can Taunt to block?

How about we make WW get rid of entry hazards? It seems made for it : Something that weighs nearly a ton (Groudon) is blown away by it, but some tiny little rocks and spikes aren't?

I know that pokemon games aren't the most logical in some senses, but C'mon people.