First off, notice how I put the word counter in quotation marks? That's supposed to note that it's not an actual counter, because the word itself is extremely vague.
Well then, thank you for agreeing with me about Jumpluff. But, I do think the word counter is pretty clear. Maybe that's for a different topic though.
Second, Garchomp hardly ever carries Stone Edge unless it's Choiced, and most don't carry Fire Blast unless they're the Chain Chomp variation. I'm saying that this is good for the SD variation. If it's Choiced, I take care of it like I do with any Choice user.
I have seen Stone Edge Garchomp used on non-choice variants more and more recently. Fire Blast is a perfectly valid choice over Fire Fang, since it does just about the same damage even after a Swords Dance.
Why exactly should relying on prediction be a last resort at all? You're supposed to be using prediction the entire match, so if anything, it should be a first resort. With Garchomp especially, there's no 100% counter which has been stated a million billion times in this thread, so every one of Garchomp's "counters" SHOULD have to rely on prediction, because Garchomp has a way of taking out every one of them if they predict wrong. Even the ones that come really close like Cresselia can be taken out by Garchomp.
Relying on prediction is just as worthless as relying on critical hits. It's pure guesswork. With that said, I acknowledge that some "prediction" has to be done here and there in matches but reckless play like that should not be encouraged.
Perhaps this is also for another thread (and this isn't a reply to Bologo, I'm just putting it out there), isn't it funny that Garchomp can beat EVERY ONE of it's counters without drastically changing its moveset while still not losing any coverage?
What is Jumpluff doing to counter Garchomp? Well, there's the Encoring, but also let's see...Sleep Powder? How about Subseeding? After you Encore him, Jumpluff can also U-Turn out while Garchomp is switching to give you the advantage.
Oh, ok, so you took a huge risk, switched your Jumpluff in,
did no damage to me and allowed me to switch out free of charge. That's a real great "counter". The only way Jumpluff would ever be able to touch a Garchomp is if they are both the last pokemon and you manage to Encore them into Struggle-ing before they massacre you.
Heh, why exactly would it matter if Jumpluff gets walled? It's not like it's an offensively-based pokemon anyway. I won't exactly be "back-pedalling" if your switch-in gets statused or hit with Leech Seed.
It's not that Jumpluff can
be walled, it's about the fact that pretty much everything can wall it without even trying and without knowing the set. On top of that, it can't even do anything to its counters except PP stall, while it wastes its own PP and barely does any damage (if any). It's UU for a reason.
I'm not sure about this, but are you saying that a "counter" always has to be able to deal a huge amount of damage to the HP of the opponent they're countering? If so, that doesn't make sense, because then how exactly does Blissey counter anything?
The definition of counter is that the incoming pokemon has to pose a threat to the pokemon being countered. If I see that you switched a Jumpluff into my Garchomp, I won't be thinking "wow this is a threat". It would be more like "wow, thanks Bologo for the free switches".
Geez, I never even said that Jumpluff was a good "counter" to Garchomp, I just said that's what I personally use to stop him. This thread is opinion, I don't really see the need to say that something's terrible at it's job when you haven't used it for this purpose and I obviously have. Notice how many times I said "for me" in my original post.
Jumpluff can be a cute temporary solution, but using Jumpluff for the sole purpose of stopping Garchomp is really a bad idea. You say it works for you, but then you list reasons why Jumpluff is a terrible Garchomp stopper. Hence, my confusion.
Also, about your Cloyster paragraph, first off, why'd you mention Gengar being a good counter to Starmie? That has nothing to do with Cloyster being a "counter" to Garchomp. Cloyster has good defense, Gengar has terrible defense, I don't understand the relation.
I mention Gengar being a "good counter" to Starmie as a comparison. I know it's not actually a counter, I was using a "simile". Gengar is obviously not reliable enough to take down Starmie, just as Cloyster is not reliable enough to take down Garchomp. Gengar can take one, maybe even two of Starmie's hits and threaten with an OHKO, but good luck "predicting" to get it in when you don't resist any of it's common moves save Rapid Spin (and resisting one of Starmie's moves is more than Cloyster can say about Garchomp), take residual damage from SR and SS, and can easily be KOd by it, etc. At least Gengar has good typing to back it up.
The relation of Cloyster to Garchomp::Gengar to Starmie is pretty close. Sure, it might be able to sponge a hit or two and then threaten an OHKO, but other than that Cloyster is a liability to any team with its huge amount of weaknesses, its lack of recovery, its asstastic special defense and HP, and the fact that it's 2HKOd by the pokemon it's supposed to be "countering" after Stealth Rock.
I want to bold and reiterate this:
Cloyster doesn't resist ANY of Garchomp's common moves. How can it possibly be a counter? Hey every time you switch your Garchomp-countering Cloyster in youre going to take a huge amount of damage and then I'm going to switch to Heatran. Great job countering me! If a Garchomp counter is easily walled, it can not be counted on to stop Garchomp. It's just too powerful for that, and giving your opponent free turns is just asking for them to set up or luck out. Garchomp can pose a threat when it's not even on the field. It limits the amount of pokemon that you can use against your opponent because you absolutely must keep your Garchomp counter in tip-top shape at all times. Garchomp is the lure and the sweeper all in one.
You also said that Cloyster has better things to do than stopping Gengar. Like what? If you're implying that it should be a spiker, then it's pretty much completely outclassed there by the other spikers. Stopping Garchomp would actually make it useful, so why not? It doesn't really matter if it doesn't resist any of Garchomp's moves. Blissey doesn't resist a great majority of the special attackers' moves, but it still stops them anyway...
Cloyster can spike/spin without being trapped by Magnezone and it makes a great Swampert counter, among other things. The fact that it can slow Garchomp down is neat, and I'm not saying its a terrible idea. Cloyster just can't stand up on its own as a Garchomp counter.
Comparing Blissey to Cloyster is laughable. Blissey has massive SpDef and HP stats which allow it to make a reckless switch here and there, even on physical moves. Cloyster can not say the same thing, boasting an HP stat that is lower than the Titanic. Blissey doesn't NEED to resist special attacks because it actually has the stats to use the whole "neutrality" thing effectively. Blissey can not be OHKOd by any unboosted special attack, whereas one wrong "prediction" with Cloyster will easily end it. Blissey also doesn't have the insane amount of weaknesses that Cloyster does. Weaknesses to Electric, (Stealth) Rock, Fighting, Grass, neutrality to Fire, Ground and Dragon. Those are not properties of a good wall, or a good pokemon. How can you justify using Cloyster as a wall when the only types it resists are Water and Ice, its own type? As if that wasn't enough, Blissey can actually do something to opposing switchins with Thunder Wave, Charm, Seismic Toss, Stealth Rock and any number of special moves, and help its team out in other ways by Wishpassing and Aromatherapy. Cloyster can spike and spin, I guess, but either way it is not posing a threat to much of anything.
Garchomps.
Starmie analogy really that difficult to understand?
