Lets actually talk about Mew in OU...

[Kietharr]

Mew is too versatile to be OU material, it really punishes people who know the game because when you see a mew, you literally have NO idea what it will be doing. It's like Ttar or Garchomp on steroids. It can do pretty much any standard job which makes it overcentralizing. If you can honestly say you wouldn't put a mew on your team given the opportunity you're not playing to win. When you see a mew, you are instantly reduced to a noob if you have no prior knowledge of its user, you can NOT predict with any reliability what it'll be using.

You can't have a mew counter so it's really nothing like we have in OU, even Ttar has the standard customers set out to counter it. You really would just hope to have something that could handle the mew set your enemy is using because unless you made your team so that each pokemon was ment to counter a mew build you couldn't feasibly be fully prepared for anything mew will throw at you. There's no one set that is impossible to counter in OU, but there are a dozen or more sets that are difficult to counter, compared to three to five with the majority of top end OU pokemon.

Sure, it's true that you could spend all day making broken mew sets and all day making counters to those broken mew sets, but there are a ridiculous amount of broken mew sets because mew learns pretty much everything and has high enough stats in everything to abuse everything. You can't make a perfect mew counter in OU any more than you could make a perfect Dialga counter in OU, and that is why it should stay uber.

 

[the_artic_one]

So basically an Orange can also provide you with a dose of Vitamin C, but is also a completely different fruit from an Apple?

Wasn't making an argument for or against mew, I was just saying that passing SD + Agility/Rock Polish isn't new (or even that practical).

 

[Lord Alchemy]

But just look at some of my arguments! I have said nothing about a particular spread or anything but people in favor of ban are not being specific!

About what? We've posted various strategies that we believe would cause Mew to be broken. Sitting there going "WAAA NOT SPECIFIC ENOUGH" isn't a counter argument.

Is it really difficult for you to jump from strategy to move set? When people start talking about Shadow Ball/Aura Sphere/Taunt/Baton Pass/Various Stat upping moves, that is pretty specific.

What does "a metagame breakdown" mean? That mew needs to be countered or used yourself? Look at garchomp! Without a chomp counter you lose to one.

Bad assumption is bad. I've survived plenty of Garchomps without specific counters, generally because it isn't all that difficult to manage them. They're not hard to revenge kill due to their Ice weakness which is an extremely common attacking type.

Same with mew. Deoxys-s can switch into the bper and taunt it before it taunts you. Bronzong can boom,gyroball, or sleep the sweeper version. A cb weavile can most likely revenge kill a non-bper as most other versions will not have defensive spreads.

What the crap is all this? You're assuming people guess correctly on which Mew their facing. Oh yeah, and you're theorymon is weak. Mew can learn Flamethrower and Earthquake, so poor Bronzong. Also gets beat out by Mew's own hypnosis.

Also, do some calcs. CB Jolly Weavile does 55.56% - 65.20% with pursuit to a non-switching Mew 6 HP neutral def Mew. 95.91% - 112.87% with Night Slash. All it would take is a Bulk Up or some defense and HP EVs to stop CB Weavile in its tracks. God help you if Mew Rock Polished and has Aura Sphere. All though all these specific counters are worthless until you've scouted out the Mew though, and by that time it could have set up a sweep.

Again, Mew isn't easily revenge killed.

Mew is just like the current threats albeit with better stats. You can't counter all of chomps sets with one poke. Same goes for mew.

Again I would like to point out that Garchomp can be effectively managed through proper physical walls, sacrifices, and revenge kills. Mew is bulkier with a less common, only 2x weakness making it much more difficult to do so.

If there was one set that was IMPOSSIBLE for the OU metagame to counter, that warrents banning.

What the fuck is this? First of all, there doesn't exist a single set that is impossible to counter. Period. If we dropped down Kyogre into OU it could be countered by other things in OU. It isn't IMPOSSIBLE. The problem is the lengths at which we must go to counter it. The centralization bit it would cause.

And as I pointed out much earlier, the problem with Mew isn't a single set. The problem with Mew is every possible set being really really really good. It isn't like a Special or Physical attacking Mew, a Baton Passing Mew, a status inducing Mew, or a Physical/Special tank Mew would be gimmicky. They would all be pretty damn good. How do you account for that?

Why is overcentralization a problem? Because UU pokes get brought up to counter a threat? Remind me why giving more pokes use is bad again?

Over centralization does not automatically result in UU Pokes suddenly becoming OU. Ignoring the fact that you're ignorant of the ability of UU Pokes to be played effectively in OU as it is, Mew dropping into OU would not increase the pool of OU Pokemon (which funny enough contains the UU pool).

8/10 teams pack a garchomp of some sort. Even more have Blissey.

And the weighted usage shows that Garchomp and Gengar is found more often on successful teams.

Mew would just be another OU threat that has multiple sets it can run.

Replace multiple with any set it feels like, and you've got the right idea.

Some people think "Oh since one poke or a poke that is not currently use much can't counter every set another could run, its overcentralization and warrents baning" and frankly, I do not understand this.

No one gives a rats ass about usage when they take into account countering. Smart people look past the OU tiers defined on this site to fill specific holes they need filled on their team(s). If people did this then Tentacruel would have never been used. But it was, so it is fairly obvious that usage is completely worthless for developing counters.

To refer to my previous argument, what stops us from, worst case senario, rebanning mew if testing proves him un-stoppable?

Nothing, but why waste the time even doing the testing if we don't have to? In fact, why aren't you setting up a Mew testing environment? I was under the impression it was simple to set up a Shoddy server, so get going. We can't simply pester the admins of this site and Colin to keep doing tests for us if a few random people want it done.

Also keep in mind that if testing is handled on the Shoddy ladders, you've effectively fucked over anyone who cares about their Shoddy rankings. It is very unwise to do this if you want to keep a semi-competitive ladder running smoothly.

Which ofcourse means I was against dropping Wobbufett into the ladder, but I digress. I don't care about my Shoddy ranking, but I do care about those that do.

 

[Resist]

Mew= Unpredictable, but doesn't Tyranitar, Togekiss, Jirachi, Heatran etc. also have a bit of unpredictability or at least variously used movesets that give it a sort of mystery, and is therefore less counterable?

For example: Is Heatran Scarfed with HP Ice? or Can I switch in my Garchomp/Salamence (whom is resistant to Fire Blast/Lava Plume) and EQ it into oblivion if it is the Sleep Talk/CSpecs Variant?

Same Question applies for Gyarados, and if Heatran has HP Electric.

Tyranitar can be a BOAH or Mixed version as well, with Ice Beam or Thunderbolt to counter Gyarados/Salamence, while maintaining Focus Punch for Blissey.

That same Tyranitar can be said about a CBander with both Pursuit and Crunch, suprising many opponents into thinking he has only 1 or the other. I.e. Someone sees Tyranitar use Crunch, but doesn't realize until its too late that Tyranitar has a CB Pursuit against U-turn Celebi, whom could normally U-turn out to safety.

 

[Raj]

Alot of the arguments that I'm seeing are Mew's Baton Passing capability. Don't forget that Celebi can Baton Pass too! IMO Celebi=Mew since they both have near the same versatility... plus Mew's stuck with bad typing. Deoxys-E was found suitable for the OU environment and THAT is just as versatile as the aforementioned. It cannot BP or Leech Seed but what it can do is play on the offensive and defensive spectrums, either as a sweeper or the spiker variant. For the competitive players, TM learnability isn't really all that special; egg moves and learned are really a necessity if you're not just playing your neighbor. What I'm getting to is that Mews moveset is limited by TMs and such, not expanded and can be outclassed by things already in OU. Base stat wise, there are several whom break the 600 mark, and with Tar's Sandstream adding to his defenses' he demonstrates why Pokes like Mew ought to be considered.

 

[Fenikkusu]

Wait. Did you just call Mew's movepool limited? Did you seriously just say the the pokemon with access to every TM and every tutor move is limited?

Egg moves are a necessity? Why? You've got base 90-95 power attacks in almost any given type you want and a +2 [sp]atk to go with it.

 

[Resist]

Mew is great as a Transform user:

252 HP/ I don't know the rest. Speed?

-Hypnosis
-Substitute
-Thunder Wave
-Transform

 

[superhammerhead]

Mew is great as a Transform user:

252 HP/ I don't know the rest. Speed?

-Hypnosis
-Substitute
-Thunder Wave
-Transform

Now that there is better off left to ditto. Mew has much better things to do, ditto doesnt. Even smeargle runs better transforms. Ditto gets the silver powder and smeargle gets trick. AND smeargle could spore if it really wanted to.

 

[Dragontamer]

Alot of the arguments that I'm seeing are Mew's Baton Passing capability. Don't forget that Celebi can Baton Pass too! IMO Celebi=Mew since they both have near the same versatility... plus Mew's stuck with bad typing. Deoxys-E was found suitable for the OU environment and THAT is just as versatile as the aforementioned. It cannot BP or Leech Seed but what it can do is play on the offensive and defensive spectrums, either as a sweeper or the spiker variant. For the competitive players, TM learnability isn't really all that special; egg moves and learned are really a necessity if you're not just playing your neighbor. What I'm getting to is that Mews moveset is limited by TMs and such, not expanded and can be outclassed by things already in OU. Base stat wise, there are several whom break the 600 mark, and with Tar's Sandstream adding to his defenses' he demonstrates why Pokes like Mew ought to be considered.

Did you just claim Celebi == Mew... and then claim Mew has bad typing? Celebi has every weakness Mew has plus Ice, Fire, Flying and Poison. Celebi can't learn Nasty Plot Bolt/Beam, Aura Sphere / Shadow Ball, Ice Beam / Earthquake, or any of the powerful 2-attack sets. Celebi does not have access to any 120 bp special attack like Blizzard, Thunder, or Fire Blast. Heck, Celebi can't even pull off Bolt/Beam with Hidden Power...

Even if we go with Swords Dance (which Celebi can learn), Celebi can't Earthquake / Stone Edge, it can't Focus Punch / Stone Edge. The best Celebi can do... is Aerial Ace, or Return. Clearly, Mew is at the advantage here.

Finally, in terms of pure baton passing, Celebi can't taunt to prevent Hazers or Phazers from stopping the fun. And further, Mew gets the same stats as Celebi. So it can run the same defensive sets.

So Mew maybe loses in defense (Celebi gets Natural Cure + Leech Seed), but it beats Celebi in both special and physical offenses, and beats it in utility (Baton Pass, Stealth Rocks...)

Deoxys-E is not nearly as versitile as Mew. For one, it doesn't have defenses worth anything... Mew can survive Life Orb Weavile Night Slashes and (Leftovers) Adamant Tyranitar Crunch... even Adamant Tyranitar CB Pursuit don't OHKO Mew, while mew can outrun and OHKO with NP Aura Spheres. Further, Mew gets far more utility through Baton Pass. Compare that to Deoxys and you can see that Mew's Bulk is what makes it far more versatile.

Finally, T-Tar has been considered "Debatable Uber" for 3 generations in a row. If anything, your argument is for the Uber status of T-Tar and not for Mew. Comparing Mew to "Debatable Ubers" like Garchomp and Tyranitar does not help your argument at all. And of course, BST doesn't mean everything. Look at Arcanine or Entei if you want a good example.

Mew= Unpredictable, but doesn't Tyranitar, Togekiss, Jirachi, Heatran etc. also have a bit of unpredictability or at least variously used movesets that give it a sort of mystery, and is therefore less counterable?

For example: Is Heatran Scarfed with HP Ice? or Can I switch in my Garchomp/Salamence (whom is resistant to Fire Blast/Lava Plume) and EQ it into oblivion if it is the Sleep Talk/CSpecs Variant?

Hidden Power is a base 70 attack. On the other hand, Mew gets every 95 BP Special attack under its belt. That alone makes Mew's Ice Beam 35% more powerful than Heatran's HP Ice.

Comparing Hidden Power to standard special attacks is a joke at best. And switching a physical sweeper like Garchomp into a fire attack is just asking to get burned.

Same Question applies for Gyarados, and if Heatran has HP Electric.

You mean... Gyarados isn't KOed and you have lost coverage on Heatran? Further, HP Electric (nor HP Ice) doesn't stop any of Heatran's counters like Blissey, Porygon2, Gardevoir, Tentacruel (lols, 3/4 hit KO with HP Electric. 3-hit KO with Earth Power).

There is little point in "unpredictability". You need to be "unpredictable" for the counters, and there is little... if anything... Heatran can do to its standard counters. Except explode of course, but even Wish/Protect Blissey or Gardevoir beats that. Jirachi is in a similar situation.

Tyranitar can be a BOAH or Mixed version as well, with Ice Beam or Thunderbolt to counter Gyarados/Salamence, while maintaining Focus Punch for Blissey.

That same Tyranitar can be said about a CBander with both Pursuit and Crunch, suprising many opponents into thinking he has only 1 or the other.

No offense... but learn the game. Boah is a standard T-Tar set. Crunch and Pursuit are on the same standard CB Tyranitar set. I would be more surprised to NOT see Pursuit on a CB T-Tar. While yes, T-Tar is unpredictable, saying a standard set is "unpredictable" doesn't help your cause at all.

I.e. Someone sees Tyranitar use Crunch, but doesn't realize until its too late that Tyranitar has a CB Pursuit against U-turn Celebi, whom could normally U-turn out to safety.

We all know Tyranitar is uncounterable (in the most strict sense of the word). Just like Garchomp, Lucario, PorygonZ, and a few other pokemon I don't recall off the top of my head. IIRC, Swampert comes close to countering everything.

However, I fail to see the point you wish to bring up. Just because there are other Uncounterable Pokemon means that Mew isn't Uber? If we're going by that standard, Kyogre is more counterable than Mew and Kyogre should be let in. (Ludicolo, Abomasnow, etc. etc. stop Kyogre hard).

Now that there is better off left to ditto. Mew has much better things to do, ditto doesnt. Even smeargle runs better transforms. Ditto gets the silver powder and smeargle gets trick. AND smeargle could spore if it really wanted to.

Mew can switch into a Gyarados Dragon Dance, Hypnosis it or its switch in... if Gyarados doesn't switch out Mew can then transform into a +1 Speed +1 Attack Gyarados with 404 HP. It can switch out later and recover back the damage.

Lets see Smeargle or Ditto do that. Smeargle doesn't have the speed, Quick Powder Ditto doesn't have hypnosis. Neither have 404 HP.

 

[GoldDraconian]

Finally, T-Tar has been considered "Debatable Uber" for 3 generations in a row. If anything, your argument is for the Uber status of T-Tar and not for Mew. Comparing Mew to "Debatable Ubers" like Garchomp and Tyranitar does not help your argument at all.

It's definitely not three generations in a row, please tell me who thinks GSC Tyranitar is uber.
The comparison may or may not be flawed, but I think it's fair enough to bring it up. Power is not equivalent to uberness, and if one could somehow demonstrate that Mew is equal in power to Tyranitar or Garchomp (which I think is impossible, since there's no way to measure how strong a poke is), then Mew and Tyranitar and Garchomp would all belong in the same tier. The thing is, you apparently (and do correct me if I'm wrong) look at that comparison and feel that being questionably uber is a reason to look at banning the legal ones, rather than look at unbanning the illegal one. That is not the objective conclusion (since there is none), it reflects your inclination.

However, I fail to see the point you wish to bring up. Just because there are other Uncounterable Pokemon means that Mew isn't Uber?

Well, the existence of other uncounterable Pokemon means that Mew's uncounterability isn't, on its own, grounds for being banned to ubers. Other factors may make Mew too good for OU, but if we accept other uncounterables in OU, then uncounterability alone is clearly not a sufficient condition to warrant banning.

 

[Resist]

Did you just claim Celebi == Mew... and then claim Mew has bad typing? Celebi has every weakness Mew has plus Ice, Fire, Flying and Poison. Celebi can't learn Nasty Plot Bolt/Beam, Aura Sphere / Shadow Ball, Ice Beam / Earthquake, or any of the powerful 2-attack sets. Celebi does not have access to any 120 bp special attack like Blizzard, Thunder, or Fire Blast. Heck, Celebi can't even pull off Bolt/Beam with Hidden Power...

Even if we go with Swords Dance (which Celebi can learn), Celebi can't Earthquake / Stone Edge, it can't Focus Punch / Stone Edge. The best Celebi can do... is Aerial Ace, or Return. Clearly, Mew is at the advantage here.

Finally, in terms of pure baton passing, Celebi can't taunt to prevent Hazers or Phazers from stopping the fun. And further, Mew gets the same stats as Celebi. So it can run the same defensive sets.

So Mew maybe loses in defense (Celebi gets Natural Cure + Leech Seed), but it beats Celebi in both special and physical offenses, and beats it in utility (Baton Pass, Stealth Rocks...)

Deoxys-E is not nearly as versitile as Mew. For one, it doesn't have defenses worth anything... Mew can survive Life Orb Weavile Night Slashes and (Leftovers) Adamant Tyranitar Crunch... even Adamant Tyranitar CB Pursuit don't OHKO Mew, while mew can outrun and OHKO with NP Aura Spheres. Further, Mew gets far more utility through Baton Pass. Compare that to Deoxys and you can see that Mew's Bulk is what makes it far more versatile.

Finally, T-Tar has been considered "Debatable Uber" for 3 generations in a row. If anything, your argument is for the Uber status of T-Tar and not for Mew. Comparing Mew to "Debatable Ubers" like Garchomp and Tyranitar does not help your argument at all. And of course, BST doesn't mean everything. Look at Arcanine or Entei if you want a good example.

Hidden Power is a base 70 attack. On the other hand, Mew gets every 95 BP Special attack under its belt. That alone makes Mew's Ice Beam 35% more powerful than Heatran's HP Ice.

Comparing Hidden Power to standard special attacks is a joke at best. And switching a physical sweeper like Garchomp into a fire attack is just asking to get burned.

You mean... Gyarados isn't KOed and you have lost coverage on Heatran? Further, HP Electric (nor HP Ice) doesn't stop any of Heatran's counters like Blissey, Porygon2, Gardevoir, Tentacruel (lols, 3/4 hit KO with HP Electric. 3-hit KO with Earth Power).

There is little point in "unpredictability". You need to be "unpredictable" for the counters, and there is little... if anything... Heatran can do to its standard counters. Except explode of course, but even Wish/Protect Blissey or Gardevoir beats that. Jirachi is in a similar situation.

No offense... but learn the game. Boah is a standard T-Tar set. Crunch and Pursuit are on the same standard CB Tyranitar set. I would be more surprised to NOT see Pursuit on a CB T-Tar. While yes, T-Tar is unpredictable, saying a standard set is "unpredictable" doesn't help your cause at all.

We all know Tyranitar is uncounterable (in the most strict sense of the word). Just like Garchomp, Lucario, PorygonZ, and a few other pokemon I don't recall off the top of my head. IIRC, Swampert comes close to countering everything.

However, I fail to see the point you wish to bring up. Just because there are other Uncounterable Pokemon means that Mew isn't Uber? If we're going by that standard, Kyogre is more counterable than Mew and Kyogre should be let in. (Ludicolo, Abomasnow, etc. etc. stop Kyogre hard).

Mew can switch into a Gyarados Dragon Dance, Hypnosis it or its switch in... if Gyarados doesn't switch out Mew can then transform into a +1 Speed +1 Attack Gyarados with 404 HP. It can switch out later and recover back the damage.

Lets see Smeargle or Ditto do that. Smeargle doesn't have the speed, Quick Powder Ditto doesn't have hypnosis. Neither have 404 HP.

I have done my research and there is a counter to Tyranitar, its Hippowdon, and its even said to be a Tyranitar counter in its analysis:

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/hippowdon

Please use research of your own when it comes to proving me correct.

PoryZ is countered by Calm Mind Blissey

 

[Fenikkusu]

Hippo is 2kO'd by a Boah Ice Beam, meaning that even though it counters the physical sets, it still isn't a true counter (in the strictest sense of the word).

 

[Dragontamer]

I have done my research and there is a counter to Tyranitar, its Hippowdon, and its even said to be a Tyranitar counter in its analysis:

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/hippowdon

Tyranitar learns Ice Beam vs Hippowdon. Against Swampert, it is either a 2-hit KO from CB Crunch, or a 3-hit KO with Crunch (always 20% chance of 2-hit KO from defense drop) while Swampert doesn't have the EVs to OHKO Tyranitar. Thats why Swampert is practically the closest thing to a counter. Neutral to the Specs set and somewhat of a threat with STAB Earthquake.

Please use research of your own when it comes to proving me correct.

Confidence is a good thing. But I assure you my calculations are solid. I argued your point a long time ago and was proven wrong.

PoryZ is countered by Calm Mind Blissey

Retry those calculations with Nasty Plot Adaptability Hyper Beam. Metalkid doesn't calculate Adaptability correctly, so plug in a base 200 attack into "Override". OHKOs Calm Mind Blissey and Bold Blissey. 172 Sp. Def Blissey is always OHKOed with help of Stealth Rocks.

Additionally, Double-STAB Adaptability Life Orb Returns can always 2-hit KO Bold Blissey if you run the correct EV Spread. Bronzong gets smacked by Specs Dark Pulse.

It's definitely not three generations in a row, please tell me who thinks GSC Tyranitar is uber.
The comparison may or may not be flawed, but I think it's fair enough to bring it up. Power is not equivalent to uberness, and if one could somehow demonstrate that Mew is equal in power to Tyranitar or Garchomp (which I think is impossible, since there's no way to measure how strong a poke is), then Mew and Tyranitar and Garchomp would all belong in the same tier. The thing is, you apparently (and do correct me if I'm wrong) look at that comparison and feel that being questionably uber is a reason to look at banning the legal ones, rather than look at unbanning the illegal one. That is not the objective conclusion (since there is none), it reflects your inclination.

Not necessarily. I believe in a certain amount of hysteresis. While we should seek the optimal metagame, the metagame should also be resistant to change in any direction. Changing the rules of the game is a quick way to kill off a competitive spirit. IE: We need to keep the current attitude and current metagame in mind at least a little bit while doing metagame changes.

Now, I'm open to testing of practically anything (except Wobbuffet... but thats another story and its too late now >_<). Mainly because a test period will help shift the metagame and keep the whole system competitive. However, I don't feel we need to even test Mew however because it is so darn powerful. The Uncounterable argumen... while certainly a main point... is not the only point for keeping Mew Uber. Baton Pass, Versitility, and Mew will kill off potential pokemon (like Leafeon, Floatzel, and any other anti-phaze Baton Passers) from the current OU metagame.

Further, there are other Ubers who deserve testing before Mew. I'd rather see Lati@s and Manaphy tested again before Mew. Mew is more powerful than both of them.

 

[ThaPhantom07]

This clearly unbiased opinion will be taken highly into account as people evaluate the centralization effects, if any, that Mew has in the currently established OU metagame.

Never said it was unbiased nor should my opinion have any weight. I gave my opinion on a Pokemon I like. No need for you to be a dick about it.

 

[Lord Alchemy]

Never said it was unbiased nor should my opinion have any weight. I gave my opinion on a Pokemon I like. No need for you to be a dick about it.

There very much is reason to be a dick about it, considering this discussion is all about the tier placement of Mew and needless comments like "I like Mew, he is so cute and awesome ^_^" is more Serebii territory then Smogon.

It is basically just off topic and meaningless to the discussion.

And as for Transform Mew, lets just pray to god your opponent doesn't pack a Shuckle. Exactly how would a 404 HP Shuckle die?

 

[Fenikkusu]

Well it could die to struggle after 20 turns.

 

[xcfrisco]

Further, there are other Ubers who deserve testing before Mew. I'd rather see Lati@s and Manaphy tested again before Mew. Mew is more powerful than both of them.

I agree with the above statement, and I think I officially just fell of the Mew bandwagon.

Since both Manaphy and Mew's Tail Glow sets are the ones in question as being too powerful for OU, I think it would probably be more efficient to just test Manaphy to see how dangerous +2 Stat booster w/BST 600 is in the current metagame.

Lol, I just realized Garchomp fits my previous description too.

 

[Trainer]

Well it could die to struggle after 20 turns.

Mew could just switch out and come back in somewhat easily.

 

[chaos 9]

ok so now that Lord Alchemy has fond a way around all of my theoretical arguments, i will back them with calcs. Attacking mew, the set you mentioned previously, is killed by blissey. people will counter this with "but blissey can't touch mew and mew can aura sphere it" but look at these calcs. A calm 252hp/0sp.def blissey takes 70.73% - 83.19% from a 6+ mew aura sphere. Now if anyone lets mew get 6+ then somthing will happen to them. If anything gets 6+ it will sweep you 9/10 times. Add some sp. def evs, not even a substantial amout, say, 78. These numbers get reduced to 66-78%. Remember this is with 6+. With 2+ and this spread, blissey only takes 33.61% - 39.50%, not even a 2hko! Now come the offense as we can easily see it can take at least 2 hits. Slap cm on this blissey. With 0 sp. atk evs, it can 2hko mew in stealth rocks with 1 cm. It can come in, force mew to taunt or be cmed against, and hit it with say seismic toss or shadow ball for 30ish damage. Mew will be fighting a losing battle because he has not recovery as the sweeper set and blissey does. Blissey could also easily paralize him and then tar with have a free cb crunch. Deoxys-s also counters the bper to perfection. I agree with the statement that others should be tested first, but there is no reason to write mew off as "overpowered" until it has been proven by cold hard facts. Those arguing for ban can say "this might happen" or "he could cause this or that" but they cannot back these statements up until they are tested and proven true. We also have to remember that each mew can only have 4 moves. When ever a counter is proposed, all pro ban people can dip into mew's move pool and pick a move to counter the counter. You cannot do that mid battle. And to top that off, you can do that with every sweeper. An example would be "gyrados counters garchomp because it's immune to ground and not weak to dragon or fire." Any one arguing that chomp is too powerful could say "not if he has stone edge." Most counters to dangerous pokes can be written off if a certain move from its move pool is selected. The reality is, in most cases it is not efficient to do this soley because it has better options. who would put flamethrower on a mew if it could have perfect coverage from shadow ball and aura shpere? Just because a threat can do somthing, does not mean they will. It is impossible to counter a pokes whole move set but that is why they can only learn 4 moves. These arguments take me a while to write fyi Lord Alchemy. So don't refer to my arguments like they are some one liner from a noob with 5 posts. I have 208 as of now, so i think i have been here long enough to have a decent understanding of the situation. I know at least enough for you not to write off my arguments with flaming and not considering my points seriously. "What the crap is this" does not make it sound like you actually took the time to look over the post and give constructive feed back, or state your point of view in a constructive way. Next time, actually post why my arguments are so "what the crapish" and do it in a moderatly civilzed manner, because flaming gets you, and the community, nowhere fast.

 

[GoldDraconian]

I do agree that Manaphy and the Latis should be tested before Mew, and that if Tail Glow Manaphy is considered too strong, testing Mew would probably be redundant.

Not necessarily. I believe in a certain amount of hysteresis. While we should seek the optimal metagame, the metagame should also be resistant to change in any direction. Changing the rules of the game is a quick way to kill off a competitive spirit. IE: We need to keep the current attitude and current metagame in mind at least a little bit while doing metagame changes.

I feel allowing the greatest number of Pokemon (without, of course, turning OU into ubers) is a more important goal than resisting change to stabilize the environment, but the latter seems a perfectly reasonable and intuitive objective. I appreciate the clarification of your position.

Also, to the people talking about Mew transforming into Shuckle... that would be pretty nifty (for the guy with the Mew, of course), but I hardly view that as a legitimate argument for Mew's brokenness. We haven't forgotten about phazing, have we? In any event, the number of Shuckles around is small, and the number of Mews that would be using Transform would probably also be small. It's sort of like arguing that Heatran is really gnarly because someone might intentionally use a fire move on him and also Flatter (I think? The special version of swagger) him up, and he might successfully attack through the confusion every turn until he's not confused. It would be rad if it happened... but it wouldn't.


EDIT: chaos9, I realize that you may not be a native English speaker or you may be a smallish child or something, and I hope you won't be offended if either of those is the case, but it would really be beneficial to use paragraphs to break up your gigantic mess of words. It dramatically improves the readability and, consequently, the chances that anybody will read what you have to say.

 

[Dragontamer]

ok so now that Lord Alchemy has fond a way around all of my theoretical arguments, i will back them with calcs. Attacking mew, the set you mentioned previously, is killed by blissey. people will counter this with "but blissey can't touch mew and mew can aura sphere it" but look at these calcs. A calm 252hp/0sp.def blissey takes 70.73% - 83.19% from a 6+ mew aura sphere. Now if anyone lets mew get 6+ then somthing will happen to them. If anything gets 6+ it will sweep you 9/10 times. Add some sp. def evs, not even a substantial amout, say, 78. These numbers get reduced to 66-78%. Remember this is with 6+. With 2+ and this spread, blissey only takes 33.61% - 39.50%, not even a 2hko! Now come the offense as we can easily see it can take at least 2 hits. Slap cm on this blissey. With 0 sp. atk evs, it can 2hko mew in stealth rocks with 1 cm. It can come in, force mew to taunt or be cmed against, and hit it with say seismic toss or shadow ball for 30ish damage. Mew will be fighting a losing battle because he has not recovery as the sweeper set and blissey does. Blissey could also easily paralize him and then tar with have a free cb crunch. Deoxys-s also counters the bper to perfection. I agree with the statement that others should be tested first, but there is no reason to write mew off as "overpowered" until it has been proven by cold hard facts. Those arguing for ban can say "this might happen" or "he could cause this or that" but they cannot back these statements up until they are tested and proven true. Essay 2 lol.

Blissey Switches in
Mew uses Swords Dance / Subsitute

Okay, now what? With an equally high Attack score as Sp. Attack, and just as equally huge of a Physical Movepool as Special... Mew can easily run a physical set. 404 Subs + Focus Punch or Swords Danced Brick Breaks will make Blissey Cry to say the least. With access to all 3 elemental punches (Emerald Tutor), SD Explosion to finish the game, Quake/Slide combo, Brick Break and Focus Punch... Physical Mew is most definitely a threat as well. Not to mention, it can run any random Sp. Attack to screw those walls up (Including grass knot for Swampert, T-bolt for Skarm, Flamethrower for forretress)

 

[xcfrisco]

Blissey Switches in
Mew uses Swords Dance / Subsitute

Okay, now what? With an equally high Attack score as Sp. Attack, and just as equally huge of a Physical Movepool as Special... Mew can easily run a physical set. 404 Subs + Focus Punch or Swords Danced Brick Breaks will make Blissey Cry to say the least. With access to all 3 elemental punches (Emerald Tutor), SD Explosion to finish the game, Quake/Slide combo, Brick Break and Focus Punch... Physical Mew is most definitely a threat as well. Not to mention, it can run any random Sp. Attack to screw those walls up (Including grass knot for Swampert, T-bolt for Skarm, Flamethrower for forretress)

Would you say Mew is incapable of being stopped in OU? (Probably not, but would you say the Mew would be significantly harder to stop than the other top-tier threats in OU?)

 

[Kietharr]

Would you say Mew is incapable of being stopped in OU? (Probably not, but would you say the Mew would be significantly harder to stop than the other top-tier threats in OU?)

Yes. Most OU pokemon have three to five workable sets with a few variations of each set. Mew can run quite a few sets with astonishing success (physical, special, mix sweeper, special wall, physical wall, passer, annoyer, among others, sub punching mew is pretty cool imo) and has nearly infinite variation of EVERY set with its huge array of moves. Another big factor here is even a physical sweeper mew will still be running three base 100 defense stats, even a wall or support mew has base 100 offensive stats.

Again, I'll say that it's about as easy to make a 100% effective mew counter in OU as it is to make a 100% effective Dialga counter in OU, needless to say it's not happening any time soon, therefore mew needs to remain banned. It's not to say that one mew showing up in OU would instantly 6-0 any team, it's saying that you can't really designate a mew counter because Mew is simply too versatile to get clear cut damage percents on him. A weavile might destroy one set or might tickle another.

 

[Lord Alchemy]

Before I go on, learn how to fucking paragraph stuff. Its harder to discuss shit when its harder to read shit. Basic communication skills are pretty vital.

Attacking mew, the set you mentioned previously, is killed by blissey. people will counter this with "but blissey can't touch mew and mew can aura sphere it" but look at these calcs. A calm 252hp/0sp.def blissey takes 70.73% - 83.19% from a 6+ mew aura sphere.

If Mew packs Taunt, the only real option Blissey has is Seismic Toss. It would actually be pretty easy to set up Mew on Blissey. Nasty Plot on the switch, Taunt, Nasty Plot again, and depending on the situation now (if say the Blissey switched) you can either Nasty Plot again, Baton Pass, or attempt to sweep yourself.

But you do know that Mew doesn't have to Aura Sphere Blissey right? Mew is just as capable attacking from the Physical spectrum. If you switched Blissey in, and Mew Swords Dance, Blissey is going to get wrecked or allow further setting up if it switches out.

Now if anyone lets mew get 6+ then somthing will happen to them. If anything gets 6+ it will sweep you 9/10 times. Add some sp. def evs, not even a substantial amout, say, 78. These numbers get reduced to 66-78%. Remember this is with 6+. With 2+ and this spread, blissey only takes 33.61% - 39.50%, not even a 2hko!

A special attacking Mew would be stupid to attempt to sweep Blissey. And as I pointed out, Mew can attack with physical attacks coming from the same base stat in attack as special attack.

Now come the offense as we can easily see it can take at least 2 hits. Slap cm on this blissey. With 0 sp. atk evs, it can 2hko mew in stealth rocks with 1 cm. It can come in, force mew to taunt or be cmed against, and hit it with say seismic toss or shadow ball for 30ish damage. Mew will be fighting a losing battle because he has not recovery as the sweeper set and blissey does.

Again, this is assuming a special attacking Mew that is dumb enough to stay in on the best special wall in the game. Obviously this situation is realistic. Also note that if Mew taunted, Blissey won't be able to recover with Soiftboil.

Blissey could also easily paralize him and then tar with have a free cb crunch.

Assuming Blissey isn't taunted already. Which is pretty easy to do considering Mew's speed advantage. And I'm sure Tyranitar isn't going to enjoy Aura Sphere much (or possibly even Brick Break) with any +2 modifiers attached.

Deoxys-s also counters the bper to perfection. I agree with the statement that others should be tested first, but there is no reason to write mew off as "overpowered" until it has been proven by cold hard facts.

And Deoxys-S has issues handling attacking variations. A Modest 252 Sp Att Deoxys-S with Choice Specs does 68.71% - 80.99% with Shadow Ball to a 6 HP neutral spDef Mew. If Mew happens to have a Nasty Plot or Swords Dance.... yeah. Good luck with that.

Those arguing for ban can say "this might happen" or "he could cause this or that" but they cannot back these statements up until they are tested and proven true..

So what you're saying is we cannot possibly ever make educated assumptions about a Pokemon based on its stats, move pool, or damage calculations? Obviously testing is the only way to definitively prove anything, but we can take our logic far enough to determine if we actually have to test the Pokemon in question. I am completely unconvinced we need to test Mew to determine if it deserves its current spot in Ubers. None of your supposed "counters" changed anything.

We also have to remember that each mew can only have 4 moves. When ever a counter is proposed, all pro ban people can dip into mew's move pool and pick a move to counter the counter. You cannot do that mid battle.

Indeed, but you do this during team building. You're also dipping in the entire pool of Pokemon by proposing random counters to every type of Mew set that is proposed. The fact is Mew can have any set it wants, and if any popular counter pops up, we can effectively alter Mew to beat that counter.

Move set syndrome isn't a negative. It just makes the Pokemon much more flexible and dangerous, because you can't assume jack shit about it before sending in a counter or you've effectively lost a Pokemon and even possibly the entire battle.

And to top that off, you can do that with every sweeper. An example would be "gyrados counters garchomp because it's immune to ground and not weak to dragon or fire."

Forgetting how Garchomp could have set up swords dance and possibly packs Stone Edge, is faster then Gyarados, and I doubt Gyarados would enjoy an SD Outrage all that much even with Intimidate factored in. Going "Oh, I'm not weak to this attack! I can safely switch in!" is a terrible thought for any "counter".

Any one arguing that chomp is too powerful could say "not if he has stone edge."

What? Are you saying that Gyarados is too powerful because if counters a SE~less Garchomp (which is lulz)? Individual match ups don't exactly push Pokemon into "too powerful" area. Just because my Ninetails wrecks Sunkern doesn't mean Ninetails is Ubers or is too powerful for the environment that Sunkern plays in.

Most counters to dangerous pokes can be written off if a certain move from its move pool is selected.

Then it wouldn't be a counter to a Pokemon, but a set. If you counter a Pokemon out right then there is literally nothing they can do to beat you. Period.

The reality is, in most cases it is not efficient to do this soley because it has better options. who would put flamethrower on a mew if it could have perfect coverage from shadow ball and aura shpere?

If a popular counter(s) to Mew ended up being all weak to Flamethrower, I would drop Aura Sphere or Shadow Ball in a heart beat. Aura Sphere/Shadow Ball coverage is about hitting as many things as possible for neutral damage. If you can hit a supposed counter for super effective damage then it is clearly a better option.

Just because a threat can do somthing, does not mean they will.

Which is why making assumptions on what counter to use is bad. Oh hey, thats what you are doing. I was simply pointing out how Mew can beat any counter that is used against the wrong set.

But hey, just because a threat can do something, doesn't mean they won't.

It is impossible to counter a pokes whole move set but that is why they can only learn 4 moves. These arguments take me a while to write fyi Lord Alchemy.

And they take even longer to respond too because of the terrible formating. Also I believe you mean "Impossible to counter a pokes move pool". You can counter move sets. In fact, thats about your only option with Mew. And even then, these "counters" are shaky at best.

So don't refer to my arguments like they are some one liner from a noob with 5 posts. I have 208 as of now, so i think i have been here long enough to have a decent understanding of the situation.

This is taken directly from a GameFAQs nub line of thought. Karma or number of posts means jack shit when evaluating someone's understanding of the situation. I would never judge someone based on how few or many posts they have, newbs exist at every level of society.

I know at least enough for you not to write off my arguments with flaming and not considering my points seriously. "What the crap is this" does not make it sound like you actually took the time to look over the post and give constructive feed back,

The fact that I've gone through your entire mess of a post should give you a inkling that I took the time to go through your post and respond to everything seriously. I'm not a robot that just reads a post and responds, I generally add in tasteless insulting for my own benefit.

or state your point of view in a constructive way. Next time, actually post why my arguments are so "what the crapish" and do it in a moderatly civilzed manner, because flaming gets you, and the community, nowhere fast.

If you took the time to go through my post, I actually do respond to the various situations you brought up and why I feel they're bad theorymon. Just because I go "What this shit is this?" doesn't mean an explanation isn't following.

 

[xcfrisco]

Move set syndrome isn't a negative. It just makes the Pokemon much more flexible and dangerous, because you can't assume jack shit about it before sending in a counter or you've effectively lost a Pokemon and even possibly the entire battle.

I disagree here, moveset syndrome is the reason pokemon are even balanced. Moveset syndrome is the reason why unlimited movepool, although great, isn't broken (and thus, great movepool doesnt = broken)

At the end of the day, Mew can only pick 4 moves. Every Mew moveset is capable of being handled by an OU team that don't suck. The issue lies in how many pokemon it actually takes to make sure Mew is pretty well covered.