I think it's safe to say that probably more than 90% of teams use something that need to set up, so that doesn't really reveal too much.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Ok I'm posting this because Alice is lazy (Wobbuffet "discussion")
- Thread starter Jumpman16
- Start date
I think it's safe to say that probably more than 90% of teams use something that need to set up, so that doesn't really reveal too much.
i know i'm being hard on you guys but please, please stay on topic. if you do not think you can add anything to the discussion of how wobbuffet has strategically affected the metagame in the last two months (read: no theorymon), then please do not post.
there's a reason i was so hard on subversion and his claims that every pokemon either dies or is rendered set-up bait is because it is theorymon and not at all what actually plays out in actual competitive battle. the latter is what this thread—and, more importantly, this community—is in dire need of.
there's a reason i was so hard on subversion and his claims that every pokemon either dies or is rendered set-up bait is because it is theorymon and not at all what actually plays out in actual competitive battle. the latter is what this thread—and, more importantly, this community—is in dire need of.
we are in the wrong, "phase" for wobbuffet to be around, once we get to the walling transition where wobbuffet will be used more often then we shall see how broken it is, my team has THREE wall breakers in it, (mixape porygon-z CM jirachi) yet it cant break wobbuffet, and we have nothing that directly counters wobbuffet.
that's kind of a defeatist attitude...waiting for a "walling transition" in the metagame is just about the most passive way to go about getting anything done. seriously, how hard is it for people to actually use wobbuffet in competitive play without waiting for "everyone else" to?
because, its a revenge killing wall.
I personally have no room in my squad for a wobbuffet so i wont use it, the thing is current peoples squad does not need wobbuffet to function, so the only way I see it being used in a walling phase, so either we force it to go that way or it wont be used, its not defeatist its where I feel it should be
I personally have no room in my squad for a wobbuffet so i wont use it, the thing is current peoples squad does not need wobbuffet to function, so the only way I see it being used in a walling phase, so either we force it to go that way or it wont be used, its not defeatist its where I feel it should be
It happens at least once per battle if the Wobbuffet is being used by a competent player, but I guess your point was I didn't outline that specifically enough so whatever, its been a while since we had that discussion anyway, so yeah.
Phalanx does have a point though; Anyone who has played Wobbuffet will hopefully agree with me when I say bringing him out against walls gives you the biggest chance possible of being able to successfully abuse him. It is a bit hard to just use Wobbuffet when the teams he's most likely to face right now are the type he can have the least amount of fun with. It would've been nice to see what'd he'd have done if the metagame was in a defensive phase, and it'll be even more interesting to see if its possible for the metagame to shift that way again with Wobbuffet around, but I guess that falls into theorymon territory.
Wobbuffet kept me up at the top of ladder in the months I was actively laddering (February-April), without letting me slip even once from the top 3 spots if I recall correctly. It was the only team I used for laddering, despite the "slowness" of the team, that didn't stop me from eventually breaking the 1800 rating barrier with that team. I don't like the team either, but I'll let my 95%+~ win ratio with that team speak for itself.
wobbufet is not that hard to bring down. Shed shell lets you switch to a counter (yes there are counters for wobbufet its just a pain to get em in).
spiritomb is probly one of the best ways to counter spiritomb. wobby can't hurt him :D any ghost type can use physical attacks with out worrying about counter. dark types do the same thing with special attacks (mirror coat doesnt work on em). Adaptability Pory Z can ohko him with HYP4R B3AM. the main thing people hate about wobbufet is Shadow Tag. baton pass out or use shed shell.
spiritomb is probly one of the best ways to counter spiritomb. wobby can't hurt him :D any ghost type can use physical attacks with out worrying about counter. dark types do the same thing with special attacks (mirror coat doesnt work on em). Adaptability Pory Z can ohko him with HYP4R B3AM. the main thing people hate about wobbufet is Shadow Tag. baton pass out or use shed shell.
343, please go back and read the rest of this thread. It has been clearly stated that Wobb chooses what pokemon to switch into, which means baton pass and shed shell are not viable "counters" unless you put one of those on every pokemon on your team. While I'm not entirely sure that everyone means the same thing when they say "overcentralization," I think we could all agree that scenario would fall under the banner. So does carrying a Spiritomb on every team to handle Wobb.
That's normally true - but 'playing to win' extends only so far. Unlike other games, there are really no material incentives for winning at pokemon. Fun really does factor into it, and people don't like long, drawn-out games. .Garchomp, unlike Wobb, doesn't cause ridiculous stalls. That's it
Like I said earlier Mekkah, people will actually encore you to death (using safeguard in-between). That is a ridiculous stall and it happens a whole hell of a lot.
Remember that Wobb isn't going to switch in to things that can hit him hard, and obviously pokemon don't switch in on Wobb, unless half your team is carrying shed shells, overcentralization, vish. The conversation goes nowhere indeed.
Remember that Wobb isn't going to switch in to things that can hit him hard, and obviously pokemon don't switch in on Wobb, unless half your team is carrying shed shells, overcentralization, vish. The conversation goes nowhere indeed.
Wait, I don't get this comment, and it keeps popping up. Why is it overcentralising to adjust a set or replace EVs for one Pokemon but not for another? Why is it overcentralizing to give Blissey speed EVs, but it's not to give her special defense EVs? Why is giving Skarmory 64 EVs in speed a big deal when a lot of water-type Pokemon have to put specific EVs into special attack just to OHKO Garchomp? I don't understand this rational. It seems like everytime an unknown Pokemon or moveset or item combination is brought up, people immediately claim that it is overcentralizing.
And skill falls in sending Wobbuffet in at correct times, building a team that can properly support and take advantage from it, and utilizing the best builds for your team. I can't take Wobbuffet and just put it on one of my teams. It works against my play style. I really don't like Pokemon that work like it does.
it is over centralising to replace the EV set to counter ONE pokemon, to me thats the same as changing the item to do the exact same thing, counter ONE pokemon.
That's... well... not a good definition. Plenty of Pokemon run very specific spreads and moves to be able to get past prominent counters they have. It's not overcentralizing at all to do that, it's just smart play. Skarmory usage increases Magne(ton/zone) usage increases Shed Shell usage on Skarmory; again, just smart play.
Ipl's JollyWob kills by Encoring a non-damage move until the opponent runs out of PP and dies from Struggle damage.
Rinse and repeat.
Wouldn't that only work on slower pokemon though? Otherwise, the attacker would get to choose what move to use after their first encore ran out, and that move would get encored instead. Especially if the non-damaging move is a stat-up move, then Wobb would definitely not want to get hit by an attacking move afterwards. Unless the "pokemon's encore has ended!" message only appears after move selections have been made, in which case that does seem like a ridiculous stall...
Who has more than one or two things on their team slower than a jolly wobba? Also, if you do it once, they'll predict you and use a damaging move before you switch in wobba.
it does appear after the end of the turn, and i already mentioned in this thread some eight popular walls that a jolly wobbuffet can incapacitate with little to no risk to itself (replying to a the_artic_one post on April 2, no less). ipl has shown how easy this has been for him, and if i were playing i'd do the same thing but..."that's why i made this thread"
Yes, JollyWobby can most definitely wreak havoc, and in the case of Skamr, speed doesn't matter.
Roost/SR gets encored because WW has a neg priority. When the encore ends, the user will eithe rget encored again, or BB for paltry damage, or they roost...healing nothing.
This is what I find cheapest about Tickle Wobby, which is where I liek to abuse it most. I save him until I can dominate Skarm, and also Bronzong (although my CurseSwine loves an easy setup...) and that way I can open up a sweep for TTar/Garchomp as well as kill Cressy when I encounter it. Wobby really makes things anticlimactic, and in the right hands opens up many sweeps. Even the lesser used Wobby-Duggy, Wobby/Maggy, and Wobby-Smeagle-BD Sub Salac Ingrain are cheap, although much more stoppable thna this new Wobby we have today.
PS: Why do my posts keep getting deleted?
Roost/SR gets encored because WW has a neg priority. When the encore ends, the user will eithe rget encored again, or BB for paltry damage, or they roost...healing nothing.
This is what I find cheapest about Tickle Wobby, which is where I liek to abuse it most. I save him until I can dominate Skarm, and also Bronzong (although my CurseSwine loves an easy setup...) and that way I can open up a sweep for TTar/Garchomp as well as kill Cressy when I encounter it. Wobby really makes things anticlimactic, and in the right hands opens up many sweeps. Even the lesser used Wobby-Duggy, Wobby/Maggy, and Wobby-Smeagle-BD Sub Salac Ingrain are cheap, although much more stoppable thna this new Wobby we have today.
PS: Why do my posts keep getting deleted?
Okay, so if it's overcentralising to replace EVs, are you recommending that everyone just use 85 spreads and neutral natures? Obviously, you don't, but I don't understand why you would say such a thing when the purpose of EVs is precisely that; the change your stats to counter or defeat certain Pokemon.
So shooting for 266 Sp. Atk isn't overcentralizing, but shooting for 181 speed is? Pokemon that for whatever reason can't outspeed JollyWob (or don't want to) deserve to lose to it, just like pokemon that can't OHKO Garchomp deserve to lose to it if they get OHKO'd by him. The only difference is that the slow wall "can't do anything about it." So what? Does that open up room in the metagame for less defensive, yet faster walls? If so, is it possible that this could actually increase variety by decreasing the use of slow walls who are susceptible to JollyWob stall? I know this is pure theorymon, but this is what people should be figuring out by playing. If JollyWob beats slow walls merciless, and there are no alternatives, then we have a case for brokenness.