***[VOTE] Event Moves, Legendary IVs. How "real" do we want it to be?***

[Kietharr]

In favor of Legendary IV emulation
Frankly it's not difficult to play around in shoddy to get the nature/IV combo that fits your pokemon's role. Generally you can just keep going down by one in an unneeded stat such as atk on a celebi until the IVs fit the nature. On the whole, it just adds a small feature that brings emulation closer to reality, which is never really bad.

In favor of event moves
They add variety, it's possible to obtain them in the cartrage game. If it's possible on the cartrage it should be possible on the emulation.

 

[DragonKnight900]

I have no strong opinions either towards or against restricting IVs . . . its funny that both sides arguet that it is only a couple points so what difference will it make, though.

I am voting for all event moves these moves exist and if the purpose of the battle simulations is to battle in an ideal world without having to raise pokemon and breed yourself they should be there. This idea of restricting event moves because we don't know the natures IVs seems ridiculous . . . for all we know there is a little kid who has never heard of the Metagame sitting around with a flawless Wish-Blissey right now; so it is possible. If we start robbing Pokes of moves because we don't like them or some such nonsense we should also start banning items, regular move combinations and team combinations . . .

Of course, if we are going to argue that the purpose of the simulator is to "test" out teams than all event moves would need to be banned.

 

[Odinwolf]

I am in favor of IV emulation. Despite some arguments that it adds unnecessary complications to playing Shoddy, if its possible to emulate the game more closely, then I feel like that should be the goal we were shooting for as long as it doesn't make the game unplayable in a competitive environment.

I am also in favor of Event Moves for the same reason. Unless a move proves to break the game and make one pokemon or combination too difficult to deal with, I don't see why we wouldn't want to emulate the environment that Nintendo has given us, event pokemon included.

 

[moi]

idea of restricting event moves because we don't know the natures IVs seems ridiculous . . . for all we know there is a little kid who has never heard of the Metagame sitting around with a flawless Wish-Blissey right now; so it is possible.

There's just one problem with such scenario. We have no proof of it, meaning we don't know for certain. Add to the fact that we are discussing past generation event moves and that on wifi, they are some of the commonly hacked pokemon, we can't be certain until we have the proof in front of us.

If we start robbing Pokes of moves because we don't like them or some such nonsense we should also start banning items, regular move combinations and team combinations

This is where I got a bit confused here. Since when are we banning them because we don't like them. The next few things make it even more so confusing. The reason we're attempting to ban them (in my case at least) isn't because we don't like them, it's that we have no idea as to the actual possible IV/Nature combinations possible, which in turn can make the simulator unrealistic.

Sorry to if this came out as rude, but I just disagree with that one.

 

[Juuka]

For IV Restricted Legends. We should stay true to the game and it's not too big of a deal; it's usually just a couple of points off. Just lower the stat where the IV is least important.

For event moves. If they were distributed, we should allow them into the game. There's no good point on not emulating them at all. If the event Pokemon did not have set IVs, then there is a chance- albeit small- that the Pokemon can have 31 straight IVs.

 

[Lyfsaho]

I have no defined opinion on the Legendary IV restrictions.

I do vote, however, for a moderate allowing of event moves. I feel it is only fair that with documented cases where evidence is available, such as Spacial Rend Darkrai, it would be allowed. However, only these specific cases should be allowed, as we cannot just generalize and allow all moves with a great majority of them potentially illegal.

 

[Captain Falcon]

IV restricted legends and event moves allowed

As many people have mentioned, we should try and emulate the game as closely as possible which is why I have voted for the above. My only point would be that if (in the future) a really broken event move came out (like spore garchomp or something), we would have to review where we stand on event moves.

 

[sanjay120]

No we wouldn't. We would just send it off to Ubers.

I don't care at all about IV restrictions on legendaries, but I am in favor of allowing event moves, as long as we can determine proper nature restrictions. IVs don't really matter to me, most legendaries only have to tweak them slightly to be legal and if its only a few points difference, then ok. We have been using WishBliss since forever and despite perfect IVs being available the game has not been broken. But there is a big difference between Lonely Tickle Wobby and Jolly Tickle Wobby.

 

[Tangerine]

But there is a big difference between Lonely Tickle Wobby and Jolly Tickle Wobby

They're available in any nature.

The only proper nature restrictions put on Pokemon was actually with the advent of DP where the PID on the wondercard would be set. With this case the Pokemon can never be shiny, however.

I'm not sure where this "Nintendo inherently limited the combination" of Nature/IVs come from - the only case I know of are the DP events such as palcity lucario/mew Korean manaphy and some other dp events.

If you're going for "documentation" then it is safe to assume for all others nature/IVs are not limited unless we have proof otherwise (Why abandon common sense and assume that nintendo will restrict? Why not combine everything that was given out at the same time to check it? (NYPC Egg Pokemon, but then again this was all because of a false rumor started by some random)).

If you're going for "known IV Combinations" then comes to question of determining if they're legit or not. I wouldn't trust any wish chansey out there unless it's Gold Ursaring's or something, and it's Rash. "Documenting known IV combinations" is not only difficult but pretty much impossible since a lot of these are probably lost somewhere. This is why shoddy banned them in the first place so please consider all of this when you guys vote - I don't think many of you understand the implications of what you guys are saying at all.

 

[IggyBot]

I'm surprised at the number of posts that are contradictory.

I vote no event moves. They make powerful pokemon like Blissey even more powerful, and being an active Wifi member, I know how difficult it is to find a legit WishBliss/WishMence-almost impossible. I think to get as close to the real game as possible, Shoddy shouldn't allow these 'moves of lore.' If anything pokemon with event moves should have their IVs restricted because we haven't seen any documentation that they even can have competitive IVs.

I vote for cartidge consistent IVs, again, Shoddy should be as close as possible to the real D/P, and to do this IVs need to be similar. You'll never be battling a legit 31 All Zapdos on Wifi just like you shouldn't be battling them on Shoddy.

I vote in favor of restricted legendary IVs. The fact that perfect IVs are simply impossible on some of them is all it takes for me to make that decision. Sometimes even 1 point in speed can affect the entire battle, I think this should definitely be enforced to create a fair environment.

I vote against event moves. Yeah, they exist, but the question here is how far a simulator goes at simulating the actual game. I don't think it should be idle (in that specific case) because those are extremely rare and aren't seen in Wifi play, unless hacked. A simulator should simulate the environment of play first, the technical stuff should only come second.

I vote for cartridge consistent IVs, for the pure reason that a simulator is meant to be as close to the actual game as possible.

I am against event moves due to the fact that most of them are extremely scarce with little info on them or the RNG process of them, meaning we do not know for sure what IV and nature combinations are available.

So we should simulate the cartridge as closely as possible. But, we shouldn't simulate the cart? Event moves ARE obtainable in game, no matter how rare they are.

If you want to go about banning stuff because it's rare, then by that logic stuff like Bold HP Ice Celebi, and perfect IV Tyranitar/Garchomp, ect. They're obtainable in game, but extremely rare and hard to get legitly.

 

[imperfectluck]

I vote for Legendary Cartridge IVs, since the whole point is to simulate the cartridge as closely as possible, inconvenience shouldn't be the argument against this and to get the right Hidden Powers Sapientia, you can usually just get it by adjusting the Attack IV or any other IV in increments of 4.

I vote for Event Moves, we know that all IV/Nature combinations are NOT possible in DP yet those haven't been restricted yet, why would we restrict Event Move IVs prematurely? We already know that most of them like WishBliss etc. do come in all possible natures, and there are a couple of great legit ones floating out there on Smogon's wifi board.

 

[Cathy]

we know that all IV/Nature combinations are NOT possible in DP yet those haven't been restricted yet

They haven't been? I am told that on most pokemon, all IV-Nature combinations are in fact possible because you can get them as a result of breeding. On pokemon that cannot be produced through breeding, we have properly restricted the IV-Nature combinations.

We already know that most of them like WishBliss etc. do come in all possible natures

But how many of these actually exist today and moreover, can you actually get your hands on them? Perhaps the owners are not distributing them. Then what are we "simulating" by allowing them?

there are a couple of great legit ones floating out there on Smogon's wifi board.

Surely these should be the only ones allowed, assuming provenance can actually be proven, which I doubt.

Even if Nintendo comes forward with full information about what was possible to be given out on the day of the event, that does not establish (1) whether an arbitrary IV-Nature combination was actually given out and (2) if it was, if it still exists today and (3) if you can actually get your hands on it.

For any extremely unlikely IV-Nature combination on a breedable/legendary pokemon, there exists an algorithm you can follow to get the pokemon.

1. Breed for the pokemon (or soft reset and catch or whatever).
2. Check the IVs and Nature.
3. If they are unacceptable, return to 1.

For some combinations, this algorithm may take a very long time, but it will always get you your pokemon eventually, assuming it is legal. For event move pokemon, there is no such algorithm you can follow. (Even the ones that involve items that allow you to soft reset do not meet the criteria because the item can be lost through files being erased as well as other concerns I have outlined. For these events though those concerns are a lot less important and less relevant.)

 

[Cathy]

Continuing this point, I am in favour of Event Moves, since they can be legally obtained in the cartridge, and therefore should also be obtainable on the simulator.

They can be? The above poster of course cannot even vote, but people keep repeating this. It is found in most of the posts in this topic. However, it is not true. Tell me: what algorithm can you follow to obtain an event move pokemon with arbitrary IVs and nature, or even a single desired spread?

It is simplistic and incorrect to say event moves can "legally obtained in the cartridge". If we implement my system with a trustee of event moves then the algorithm would be this:

1. Contact the trustee of event moves.
2. If he does not have the combination you want, you are shit out of luck.
2. Otherwise, obtain the pokemon.

Without a system like that in place there is no such algorithm and the whole idea of "simulating" event moves is inconsistent. What are we simulating?

 

[Goodbar]

So, wanna ban Celebi, Jirachi, and other legends that we don't know the exact IV generation method of?

It is stretching the argument a bit - but it is quite similar. We have pretty good sources that say that Tickle wynaut and stuff that were handed out in distribution machines are available in any nature - considering NYPC probably ran similar machines, I don't see why any Pokemon available in eggs would be limited in nature/IVs. Hell, you could probably just make a compilation of all the known Egg event Pokemon and check.

Yes, we "assume" but I would be willing to gamble that this assumption is good enough.

Jirachi wouldn't count but I guess this would affect Celebi...

It's not that bad to assume all natures were handed out, but to assume that perfect, even good IVs were possible on these things is kind of stretching it.

And those "certain events" don't have event moves! What a shocking fact! The egg ones were distributed via a machine that I would assume that is random nature/IV since we don't have any evidence otherwise. "Assume normal, unless there is evidence that there is limitation". Isn't that what we're doing with wondercard events anyway? :P

Are you sure? I believe a lot of event pokemon were handed out in machines, in particular the NYPC ones, and they were not all in eggs. I guess I don't feel good in assuming normal since a 31/31/31/31/31/31 bold wish blissey is far more formidable than a 12/7/6/14/21/25 quiet one. And with wondercards, you can SR in your own game from them, and we've seen really good IVed examples in wifi.

Unfortunately Nintendo hasn't allowed us to know for sure, so oh well =/. A possible comprimise that is a somewhat moot point: put the normal legend restrictions on them. Except they aren't really big restrictions, it probably won't matter

 

[cim]

I am unbanning event moves in general, and if a specific case is vague and unspecified like Tickle Wynaut the individual case should be handled. It is true that some events, like Tickle Wynaut, have very, very unreliable information. If we doubt that the event happened, then we can eliminate the move in question. But to blanket ban Event moves that we are certain actually happened, such as the NYPC Wish event, I think is wrong. Since Pokémon simulators simulate battle, not breeding and obtaining Pokémon, we should allow anything that's obtainable in the game world, even Event moves. I think that since in theory any available IV/Nature combo COULD have been distributed at NYPC, the actual results aren't relevant to simulated play.

For IV restrictions, I'm going to have to vote no IV restrictions out of principle. Even though X-Act is really cool and awesome and gave a general reason as to why all IVs can't exist, the data on how the IVs were collected and why the specific ranges are the only legal ones has never been released. I'm simply not comfortable having IV restrictions based on closed evidence. I'm not suggesting that evidence be leaked out and "all hackers reign free" or something, but we shouldn't be making decisions based on data not available to the public.

Also, why are people arguing against other's points? I thought that this was a straight-up vote, so what does "proving someone's opinion wrong" accomplish?

 

[ToF]

In favor of Legendary IV emulation
If it is not possible in-cart, it should not be possible on a simulator emulating the cart. Pretty simple game mechanics. Anything in game should be reproduced exactly as in a simulator.

In favor of event moves
Once again, if it is possible on the cart, it should be allowed. The various event moves are possible to get in a cart, and even though certain event moves are rare, the fact that they can exist in a DP cart is enough to allow them onto a simulator IMO.

 

[kd24]

I am not in favor of Legendary IV emulation. I see people everyday having troubles getting that Hidden Power they want on their legendary, as well as people can't find what IV combination you need. People, this is a Pokemon SIMULATOR. We aren't going to have to get everything right. Really, is it that gamebreaking that Zapdos has perfect IVs? No it is not, and all it does is promote frustration.

By the same token I am in Favor of allowing Event Moves. For the same reason this is a simulator and we know that these Event Move Pokemon exist. We just don't have proof of their IVs and Natures but then again ... would it really break the metagame if these Pokemon could have any nature and perfect IVs?

 

[Syberia]

When you begin to think about what such an "ideal environment" actually means, some of the problems with event moves and a simulator begin to come to light.

Let's suppose that today there still exists a 31/31/31/31/31/31 ideal nature Wish Blissey in somebody's possession, and there is provenance to indicate it actually came from the event. However, the person who has this Blissey is selfish and does not redistribute it. We know this pokemon exists, but you can't just go get it and add it to your team because this guy just won't let you. So what exactly are we "simulating" by allowing it?

The pokemon did exist. So we're using a simulator to cover up the fact that someone's being a douchebag and keeping a perfectly legitimate event move pokemon to themselves. So to answer your question, we're "simulating" a pokemon that was legitimately released by Nintendo and intended for our use and enjoyment. As you say below, you do not object to the process of cloning, so in an "ideal" world, everyone would have access to said Wish Blissey.

Or consider this. Suppose that that he was willing to start distributing it, but then by fluke his file was erased. The pokemon doesn't exist anymore, so there's no way you can get it onto your team. Again, what would be "simulating" by allowing this pokemon when there is no way you can actually get it onto your team?

Again, this would not be the ideal.

The only self-consistent way I can see to allowing event moves is to designate one person a trustee of event moves and have this person collect clones (which are legal because we can get them through an ingame method) of all trusted event moves and distribute them to people who request them, and also has a backup of his file. Of course, this is wholly impractical, so it's simpler just to ban event moves. Or you can adopt an inconsistent position.

Or, in the case of the ideal metagame, we can just assume this would be the process, and simulate it. A simulator should simulate the best-case scenario of what's possible (if you argue against this, you're also committing yourself to argue that the Modest 31/31/31/31/31/31 Heatran on my Shoddy team at the moment should not exist either, because no one that any of us know of has actually obtained one in-game). So this argument really doesn't work, as for the purposes of simulation, one can just assume their way past all the impracticalities, much as they can assume their way past the fact that no one has actually obtained a 31/31/31/31/31/31 Heatran.

For any extremely unlikely IV-Nature combination on a breedable/legendary pokemon, there exists an algorithm you can follow to get the pokemon.

1. Breed for the pokemon (or soft reset and catch or whatever).
2. Check the IVs and Nature.
3. If they are unacceptable, return to 1.

For some combinations, this algorithm may take a very long time, but it will always get you your pokemon eventually, assuming it is legal. For event move pokemon, there is no such algorithm you can follow. (Even the ones that involve items that allow you to soft reset do not meet the criteria because the item can be lost through files being erased as well as other concerns I have outlined. For these events though those concerns are a lot less important and less relevant.)

Surely, even you must realize how flawed this is. Just because you flip an infinite number of coins does not mean that at least one of them is bound to be heads and at least one is bound to be tails. The chance of each coin flip being heads or tails is still 50%, regardless of what the flips before and after it may be. There is an infinitely small (but still plausible) probability that there will be no heads, or that there will be no tails. By the same token, it is entirely plausible that if I were to reset my game an infinite number of times, I would never obtain a perfect Heatran. So by your logic we should ban all pokemon with all IV spreads, as there's a very real chance you may never obtain them. So let's never play pokemon again.

Just for clarification's sake, a lot of your post seems to revolve around items/files being lost, someone being selfish, and other aspects of human error or human flaws. For a simulator, in which the so-called perfect environment is being simulated, these are largely irrelevant.

 

[Little Green Yoda]

I am indifferent about legendary IV restrictions, provided the interface makes it simple and easy to select a legal IV spread for any particular moveset. The few points of IVs shouldn't make a major difference either way. But if the restriction means the process of team building on Shoddy will be more complicated (which was already a lot less streamlined than Netbattle was), I cannot vote in favor of it.

I don't feel that any online simulator will truly simulate the real Pokemon games 100% fully, since we are usually only concerned about the battling aspect (and not the breeding aspect and whatnot). The ideal conditions (perfect IVs on breedable Pokemon, for example) are always used in such simulators despite the extremely low odds of attaining such Pokemon ingame. I'm fine with the simulated metagame to be slightly different from the WiFi metagame because it always will be. As such, I would like known event moves to be allowed. The nature/IV combination possibilities for these event Pokemon are irrelevant to me as long as they are not game-breaking, which they are not.

 

[Wayff]

For cartridge consistent Legendary IVs.
If it's possible in-game, it should be on Shoddy too.

To unban event moves.
Event moves are possible to get, so they should be allowded.

 

[kamikaen]

I am for cartridge consistent legendary IVs, since I like the idea of simulating the games as closely as possible. And that's not persnickety or over overparticular. A few points higher than the game allows could mean a win or a loss where that wouldn't have happened on the DS. A few points might only mean a very small percentage of difference, but isn't Leftovers just a small percentage, but still (by far) the most used item?

I am for event moves, as long as enough is known about them to be sure that they are real. This should be done case by case.
Edit: reasoning for this one is the same as above; to simulate the possibilities of the games as closely as possible.

 

[gameboy3333]

I vote for cartridge consistent IVs, Shoddy's way of handling this problem makes it easy and doesn't require a lot to fix. Normally it won't change a stat that makes a difference. It can be annoying to waste a minute of your life to open the team decide which stat to change then save it, but it works.

I vote for event moves , no matter what, it IS possible to get them legit, even if there's only one out there, the possibility stands that it exists, and therefore should be allowed.

 

[Syberia]

I vote for cartridge consistent IVs, Shoddy's way of handling this problem makes it easy and doesn't require a lot to fix. Normally it won't change a stat that makes a difference. It can be annoying to waste a minute of your life to open the team decide which stat to change then save it, but it works.

I don't know if the system has changed since I last dealt with it, but the problem with Shoddy's auto-correction is that it always changes your Hidden Power, and from there it's pretty much a matter of guess-and-check until you can figure out a combination that works. As I've said before, I'm in favor of cartridge-consistent IVs as long as Shoddy's algorithm for changing your pokemon includes the necessary steps to keep your Hidden Power the same (or else there is a readily-accessible list of IV/Nature combinations for different Hidden Powers).

 

[Ruesap12]

I vote for cartridge-consistent IVs. This is something that the competitive community does know about and is able to keep accurate, so it is not as hazy as event moves are. Having consistent IVs does not change the game at all; it's just a small hassle when building a team that is fixed easily and does not detract from the game.

I vote for event moves to be allowed. First of all, they add more variety to the metagame with Pokemon such as Wishbliss, Wish Salamence, etc. Second of all, the inclusion of event moves does not break or "ruin" the game, although Tickle Wobbuffet is a tricky issue. I am for allowing them as long as it can be confirmed that they exist.

 

[gameboy3333]

If you're going for the right hidden Power, then you're gonna have to deal with that. Wouldn't you have to do the same in the game too? I made my post only is taking into consideration of changing the IVs, not Hidden Power. Having a way of keeping your Hidden Power the same would be nice, but it would just be a luxury.