***[VOTE] The final Deoxys-S "discussion" thread***

[Pulse]

At first I was going to post that I wanted Deoxys-S to be OU... See, my first reasoning was that even though Deoxys-S has had a huge impact on the metagame, how can we safely say that if Garchomp / Tyranitar / Infernape were arbitrarily implanted into the metagame that they wouldn't have a much larger effect? But then I realized that while the magnitude of their effect may have increased, the repercussions would not be the same. Deoxys-S removes an entire playing style of sweeping offense, something that the previous Pokémon would not do. I am not claiming that Deoxys-S is easier to counter nor am I stating that it is better than Garchomp, I'm simply saying that it's effect on the metagame is too huge to be left in OU. Removing it opens up playing styles while leaving the popular bulky sweeping untouched.

If it makes any difference, I actually want Garchomp banned, so please don't respond to my post with "well Garchomp is better" because it is a.) irrelevant and b.) not weakening my argument whatsoever.

Deoxys-S is Uber.

 

[Ancien Régime]

I fail to see how this is any different than being forced to carry a counter for Garchomp or Mixape. It's not like those Pokemon have a longer list of counters than Deoxys-e.

I don't have to have Starmie/Tentacruel/Gyarados/Psychic Cresselia/etc to beat Infernape.

I don't have to have Hippo/Gliscor/Cress to counter Garchomp.

The difference is that I can adjust without having to pack the "designated counters" to those pokemon. That is not an option with Deoxys-E because it cannot realistically be outsped.

 

[lilyhollow]

There hasn't been much of a change in statistics at all and Deoxys E hasn't yet really effected the metagame that much.

Just because there has been little change in individual pokemon usage does not mean that Deoxys has not affected the metagame.

Even if Deoxys caused the meta-game to be entirely bulkier offense (which certainly hasn't happened yet),

Well yes I agree, bulky offense isn't going to be the entire metagame, obviously more defensive teams aren't as threatened by standard Deoxys. I have yet to see anyone competent run a "pure offense" team though.

I maintain that it wouldn't be a bad thing, just the next step in the evolution of the metagame.

I disagree, and I think that removing an entire style of play from the game is always a bad thing.

I feel like the metagame has slowly been shifting towards a bulkier game anyway. All the choice users (especially Scarf) encourage bulkier pokemon.

I don't think that it's coincidence that "6 frail sweepers" is no longer a viable style, and that the progression into "bulky offense" was just going to happen with or without Deoxys-S. Considering that Gengar "coincidentally" is the only "pre Deoxys" Scarf user that uses Scarf even more "post Deoxys," and it is essentially the only one that can manage to outspeed it, I find it very difficult to say that Deoxys-S had no effect on the metagame. The fact that both of these effects (decline in usage of Choice Scarf for most pokemon and progression into bulky offensive play) took place after Deoxys-S' inclusion does not exactly seem coincidental to me. If you do in fact think that removing a style of play from the game is "evolution," I have no way to really argue that without getting into off topic "definition of uber" discussion, so I'll just leave it at that.

 

[Phizzlax]

I don't have to have Starmie/Tentacruel/Gyarados/Psychic Cresselia/etc to beat Infernape.

I don't have to have Hippo/Gliscor/Cress to counter Garchomp.

The difference is that I can adjust without having to pack the "designated counters" to those pokemon. That is not an option with Deoxys-E because it cannot realistically be outsped.

You don't have to have things from Deoxys' counter list to counter him either. There is a plethora of Pokemon that he can't OHKO who can fire back with a strong attack or status, or kill him with speed priority moves, in either case passive damage will take it's toll on him as much or more than it does on a lot of other Pokemon. In this respect he's little different than any other Frail/Fast D/P sweeper.

Blame Game, I was saying that there hasn't been much change in general usage, not just Deoxys usage. I agree that entire removal of a strategy is a bad thing, but in this case (and most cases) it's replaced by a new strategy and the overall number of viable strategies hardly changes. Trick-room teams may become more prevalent if Deoxys himself becomes extremely popular, if the environment just becomes bulky sweeping stall teams that had little success against faster and stronger sweepers before will see a rise in popularity again.

I definitely agree that Deoxys is partially responsible for the decline in Choice Scarf users, but I don't think it's a bad thing, and I do think that's the direction the environment was headed anyway. The obvious reaction to a huge number of Scarf users in the environment was to play with bulkier pokemon that can take the unboosted hits and fire back or setup for a sweep.

 

[Jumpman16]

Oh, I'd definitely say that each and every one of those Pokemon you bolded have gone down in use with a Choice Scarf, with the exception of Gengar which is using Choice Scarf more than December due to Deoxys-E and Garchomp as it is one of the few "SD Garchomp counters" that can get around its Yache Berry. I never claimed that not being desirable to use a Scarf makes bad Pokemon out of any of them, all great Pokemon in their own right, but it just serves to stifle the ways in which they can be used on offensive teams.Sure, ScarfHeatran can counter SD Lucario (which is the most popular set by far, followed by SpecsLuke) which Deoxys-E can't, but outside of that, it doesn't have the ability to revenge things nearly as well as Deoxys-E with its higher speed and ability to change attacks on the fly, therefore preventing setup. Choice Scarf is an item that has a risk to its reward, chiefly, allowing other Pokemon a chance to set up on your locked move, and forgoing any ways of boosting your attack. Deoxys-E is a Pokemon that does not require such a risk to use, making it detrimental to everything that Smogon is trying to do (maximize skill.) Since Choice Scarf usage has effectively been curbed by Deoxys-E, that's one less otherwise strategic, viable choice for trainers out there.

First, Deoxys-S stifles "a" way they can be used, to be more fair and accurate. Second, I would also like to get your opinion on how honestly different you think the base of Advance Boah is to this, because I seriously can't see too many differences. To underline a few of the similarities: stall picked up again after 7-9 of a metagame with Boah, which means that 1) it may take longer than 3-4 months for us to say that DX-S presence is impossible to live with comfortably, and 2) metagame shifts can indeed create trends that balance out top threats. I honestly don't see what the big deal is "yet", and maybe that has something to do with the poor job the community seems to do actually whoring things that are supposedly too strong for standard play.

[/list]Sorry Jump, but I'm going to have to agree with IPL on this one. Out of all of those bolded pokemon, I'm going to have to say that Gengar is the only one listed that is still used regularly with a Choice Scarf set.

Garchomp's most popular set is SD Yache, there is no contest. Other variants such as SD Salac, and Swords Dance in general prevail, not Choice Scarf.

Tyranitar at the moment is most popular with Choice Band (both max attack, and special defensive sets), Dragon Dance, and Mixtar. Choice Scarf has dropped to the back of Tyranitar's mind.

Lucario was never a very popular choice scarf user, and in December, SD Life Orb Lucario was (and still is) running rampant. This is by far the most popular Lucario set, followed by Choice Specs.

Heatran has grown in popularity from ResTalk and Choice Specs sets, but I will say that out of everything you've listed (besides Gengar of course) it is probably the only remaining pokemon that a scarf is semi-popular on. But like I said, ResTalk is the most prevailing build here now (which fits right into the bulky offense game that DP has become).

Heracross has been seeing a lot more SD action recently, but CB is still the #1 used set that I see everywhere. Choice Scarf on Heracross is almost redundant, because everything aims for 270+ speed.

And is it a coincidence that on you list, the only pokemon that outspeeds Deoxys-S while holding a Choice Scarf is Gengar, and Gengar is the only pokemon that a Scarf is still common on? All of the others that you've bolded have moved to other sets, because they still can't outspeed Deoxys-S even with that boost. Not only that, but Deoxys-S hits them all for SE damage (and OHKO's them all, except for Heatran who takes a hefty 75%-89% from Superpower). I really wish we had statistics on items for these pokemon so I could prove my point 100%, but right now I can only give you my observations from playing over the last 5 months.

There is no actual argument in this post, you know...it's pretty easy to agree that scarf usage has gone down with those pokes, but again, why does that matter?

 

[RaikouLover]

I would like all of you to read this:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36557

As you should know, Iggybot is one of our community's best and most respected battlers, and this is an exampole of an all-offensive style team that was used in early February, a mere 3 weeks after Deoxys-E's apperance, LONG before the gradual metagame shift. For those of you who don't bother to read it, I'll spell it out for you pretty simply:

Choice Scarf Infernape
Choice Band Gyarados
Choice Scarf Togekiss
Choice Band Snorlax
Life Orb Mamoswine
SubPetaya Yanmega

This is an example of a offensive team, and in fact, this one is more defensive because of Iggy's additon of Snorlax to deal with Starmie. In the thread he says Snorlax is his most replaceable, and I'd imagine is that it is the pokemon essentially "holding" the team's pressure back. Now, this team's strategy is common to all offensive teams - Set the pace and don't let up. Don't give your opponent time to breathe.

So how does this team counter SD Garchomp?? Well, 2 Scarfers, an Ice Sharder, and an intimidate that is immune to Earthquake makes this team pretty Garchomp-proof.

Well, SD Lucario can beat it... well, Gyarados has intimidate, and after intimidate it will fail to KO Togekiss and Mamoswine with Extremespeed, and it can't even KO Yanmega after an SD anyway.

Well, DD Tar? Nope... Choice Scarf Togekiss and Infernape destroy it.

The point is that the team doesn't have solid "counters" to any of these pokemon, but through resistances, immunities, abilities, and Choice Scarfs, this team can handle a multitude of threats should Garchomp or Luke actually get that SD off.

Now, how does Deoxys-E affect this team? Well, it easily OHKOs 4 of the pokemon on the team, the 5th (Togekiss) is OHKOed with the help of SR, and Snorlax is a 1 time switch in only. In fact, most offensive teams don't even have a pokemon like Snorlax because they just use Weavile to get by Starmie. If Snorlax is taking any prior damage, it can't switch into any of Deoxys-E's attacks without being KOed the next turn.

The point of this is to actually provide a VISUAL example since people seem to be having a hard time believing that offensive teams like this existed. Saying "Add Bronzong" will severely detract from the style and "pressure" that the team exerts on the opponent.

Combinations like

Infernape, Weavile, Gyarados, Garchomp / Salamence, Gengar, and Electivire were seen everywhere before Deoxys-E was introduced. And I've said before, Deoxys can rip this team up and theres just no way around it.

One final note I'd like to make about the diffence in Deoxys-E's sweeping potential is the nature of his sweep. Pokemon like Garchomp, Lucario, Tyranitar, and Gyarados all need to STAT UP TO SET UP A SWEEP AND STILL RUN THE RISK OF BEING OUTSPED (Lucario can just be killed by something that can survive the E-speed) Deoxys-E needs no set up. He comes in and immediately puts a team into defensive mode, which is 100% gamebreaking to other offensive teams, because it effectively destroys the strategy with his entrance into battle. Deoxys-E just comes in and starts fucking shit up, you have no hope to outspeed it barring priority moves, and it doesnt need a boosting turn to beat you, which forces you to risk being killed or switching something in that will be killed. I hope I made my point with EVIDENCE this time.

 

[cim]

At first I was going to post that I wanted Deoxys-S to be OU... See, my first reasoning was that even though Deoxys-S has had a huge impact on the metagame, how can we safely say that if Garchomp / Tyranitar / Infernape were arbitrarily implanted into the metagame that they wouldn't have a much larger effect?

You made an assertion (Deoxys having a huge effect on the metagame) and use this as the basis for your argument, but did nothing to show proof for it OR even give an example of how you assert it did. This is the main fallacy in your entire argument. Deoxys is one of the least used OUs. If it had a ridiculous impact on the metagame, it would be #1 or #2 or #3.

But then I realized that while the magnitude of their effect may have increased, the repercussions would not be the same. Deoxys-S removes an entire playing style of sweeping offense, something that the previous Pokémon would not do. I am not claiming that Deoxys-S is easier to counter nor am I stating that it is better than Garchomp, I'm simply saying that it's effect on the metagame is too huge to be left in OU. Removing it opens up playing styles while leaving the popular bulky sweeping untouched.

Let me summarize what you're saying:

• Deoxys-S removes all sweepers from the game.
• It has a huge impact on the metagame.
• The fact that it removes all sweepers from the metagame, regardless of counterability, makes it Uber.

The first point is yet another assertion you have made without examples OR evidence. If Deoxys-S made sweeping obsolete and eliminated them all, I would never, ever sweep a team with a Deoxys-S on it. I have numerous times done just that. I honestly can't think of a way at all that Deoxys will OHKO every sweeper in the game. Because it doesn't. Let's give an example: Garchomp. He's a sweeper. How does Deoxys negate everything he does? Deoxys can't switch in, guarantee a OHKO with Ice Beam, AND outspeed a Scarf version. At least one of those will not happen on every Deoxys spread. This is merely one example. I honesty can't imagine how Deoxys stops ALL sweeping entirely.

The "huge impact on the metagame" thing comes back. What has he done to the metagame? You've made no claims as to WHAT he does, you just say "he's done X, thus he's broken." I honestly don't know how you THINK he's affected the metagame.

The third point is the conclusion based on the above 2 premises. But the premises are completely invalid. While there is no logical fallacy, the information you provide is completely inaccurate and not backed up in ANY way.

tl;dr: You really aren't making any sense. Please elaborate.

Big ass post

So, uh, if you're team is ENTIRELY weak to a combination of Psychic, Fighting move, and Thunderbolt, how is that proof that Deoxys is broken? Hell, Electivire gives that team trouble as everything is very weak ot his moves! Proving that a weird team that uses Choice Scarf to beat Pokémon with type advantages can't beat a fast Pokémon with type advantages doesn't mean the fast Pokémon is Uber, it means the team sucks balls.

 

[lilyhollow]

Blame Game, I was saying that there hasn't been much change in general usage, not just Deoxys usage. I agree that entire removal of a strategy is a bad thing, but in this case (and most cases) it's replaced by a new strategy and the overall number of viable strategies hardly changes. Trick-room teams may become more prevalent if Deoxys himself becomes extremely popular, if the environment just becomes bulky sweeping stall teams that had little success against faster and stronger sweepers before will see a rise in popularity again.

I definitely agree that Deoxys is partially responsible for the decline in Choice Scarf users, but I don't think it's a bad thing, and I do think that's the direction the environment was headed anyway. The obvious reaction to a huge number of Scarf users in the environment was to play with bulkier pokemon that can take the unboosted hits and fire back or setup for a sweep.

I don't think Trick Room teams will ever become significantly popular, or really become more effective in any way for that matter, considering that Deoxys is just one pokemon. It's not like Trick Room will serve as a "counter" to Deoxys-S any more than just packing Bronzong on my team would, which is really all you have to do to keep it at bay until late game unless it wants to waste 10% HP per turn doing nothing.

Furthermore, we've already tested Deoxys; if there were any real benefits to allowing him in OU, we'd know about them, and people with experience would be citing them left and right instead of bringing up theoretical scenarios. If Deoxys-S really did create an environment in which Trick Room teams were more effective, they would have increased in popularity. Where are the people who have seen or used a Trick Room team more successfully now than before Deoxys was unbanned? Where are the people who are pleased with the so-called improvements to stall-based play? I understand you said "if Deoxys becomes extremely popular" but come on, that's baseless theorymon and you know it. Right now Deoxys is having a negative impact on the game, and people like Imperfectluck attest to this from personal experience. I'm not seeing anybody give any examples (nor have I personally experienced any) of how Deoxys has really improved the metagame besides "weakening offense," when in fact bulky offense is extremely effective and pokemon like Garchomp still dominate usage lists as a result.

Even though I find it completely baseless, I'll still address your point about the potential for stall-based teams to improve by saying that "improving" one style of play and then removing another one altogether does not seem to be a fair trade. Never mind the fact that no such "improvement" has been documented in the first place, but I still wanted to bring that up.

 

[RaikouLover]

No, Chris is Me. You completely misintepreted what Pulse said. You couldn't have twisted it any more! Pulse said the style of Sweeper teams, Not set up teams. Sweeper teams were teams of 100% offensive pokemon. Set up teams are teams that set up pokemon X for a sweep. He was referring to Deoxys-E destroying Sweeper teams and saying that metagame has changed so that they no longer exist. I'm not going to say they no longer exist, but their usuage has decreased significantly. I don't want to hear statistical shit either, because myself, and many others in this thread have noted the same change (Iggy, Jrrr, IPL, Wayff, Pulse, Ancient Regime - we are all frequent shoddy battlers, and 1 of this group has held the #1 spot on the ladder using Deoxys-E on his team for months). So don't disregard his observation of the Metagame change as we've all noticed it. The argument that Pulse and the rest of us is making is that Deoxys-E had an immediate impact on the entire style of play of certain teams (offensive), thus limiting team-building combinations to stay competitive.

 

[cim]

"Deoxys-S removes an entire playing style of sweeping offense"

Is there a difference between sweeping offense and a sweeper? Isn't sweeping offense done by a sweeper?

I never said anything about set up at all. You put that into my argument. If you're trying to say that before Deoxys having 6 frail sweepers worked and now it doesn't, that's simply bullshit. 6 frail sweepers was always a terrible strategy and Deoxys-S never changed that.

Statistics aren't bullshit.

So, he's changed the metagame... how. How has he changed the metagame? Making "6 sweepers" not work isn't correct, as it never worked. Trust me, every new player has tried "6 sweepers". Please EXACTLY and CONCISELY tell me exactly what Deoxys-E has done to the metagame. Has the Ladder significantly changed usage of any specific Pokémon? Not really.

 

[sanjay120]

Well apparently having six sweepers does work because people climbed the ladder with that kind of team.

 

[RaikouLover]

Chris is Me, I just gave you a distinct example in Iggybot's team about 7 posts up. I don't believe his team was a total flop considering he climbs the ladder at will...

 

[cim]

If he climbs the ladder at will, then Deoxys isn't broken or he wouldn't be able to, right?

The most important thing I've found in an argument is that a team weakness to a Pokémon does not make that Pokémon Uber.

 

[Bologo]

Now, how does Deoxys-E affect this team? Well, it easily OHKOs 4 of the pokemon on the team, the 5th (Togekiss) is OHKOed with the help of SR, and Snorlax is a 1 time switch in only. In fact, most offensive teams don't even have a pokemon like Snorlax because they just use Weavile to get by Starmie. If Snorlax is taking any prior damage, it can't switch into any of Deoxys-E's attacks without being KOed the next turn.

Well, according to that RMT, the team's not even supposed to allow the opponent to set up SR or Spikes, so half of the team being SR weak isn't DX-S's fault, and something's already failed during the match if they're set up.

This team can deal with DX-S just fine, just like all the other threats you mentioned earlier in your post. Deoxys-S cannot switch into the team at pretty much any point, so it's limited to coming in on a revenge-kill. Also, do not forget that Gyarados Intimidates DX-S, so then you can safely switch over to Mamoswine or Snorlax to take Superpower. Another point is that Superpower is very unreliable. Remember, it does have the -1 Attack and -1 Def drop every time it attacks with that move, so there's a very low chance of it actually pulling off a cleansweep on that team. It's just like with the other threats, careful switching just the team does against Lucario. It just doesn't seem that different to me. I suppose it does have trouble however, if Gyara, Snorlax or Mamoswine are gone before DX-S shows up, but the same thing could be said for SD Lucario if Gyarados and the other things that can take SD Lucario's hits are gone. I know that the last two sentences don't make much sense, but that's how it is.

Combinations like

Infernape, Weavile, Gyarados, Garchomp / Salamence, Gengar, and Electivire were seen everywhere before Deoxys-E was introduced. And I've said before, Deoxys can rip this team up and theres just no way around it.

You still haven't really explained how this is solely a bad thing, because it really isn't necessarily bad, especially if those kinds of teams were running through people so easily before Deoxys-S showed up. Perhaps it's good that those teams finally received a weakness?

 

[RaikouLover]

This team can deal with DX-S just fine, just like all the other threats you mentioned earlier in your post. Deoxys-S cannot switch into the team at pretty much any point, so it's limited to coming in on a revenge-kill. Also, do not forget that Gyarados Intimidates DX-S, so then you can safely switch over to Mamoswine or Snorlax to take Superpower. Another point is that Superpower is very unreliable. Remember, it does have the -1 Attack and -1 Def drop every time it attacks with that move, so there's a very low chance of it actually pulling off a cleansweep on that team. It's just like with the other threats, careful switching just like it does against Lucario. It just doesn't seem that different to me.

Well Bologo, it puts the team into immediate defensive mode with its entrance into battle. The battle from then on becomes a guessing game with an offensive team struggling to even get an attack off. It's not like Deoxys-E was even allowed to set up, its mere presence is a huge threat. Garchomp on the other hand (not comparising, just stating) is only a threat to the team after an SD, and even still its beatable. Deoxys-E can get multiple hits off before you can even hope to hit it. Sure you switch in Gyarados, then go to mamoswine, then Gyarados, then Yanmega, etc... every pokemon you've switched is taking some kind of damage and you haven't even landed an attack yet and revealed your whole team. Is that a flaw in the team or just that pokemon? Well, you can opt to counter that pokemon, but then you hamper your own strategy. And that is the case in Deoxys-E versus every offensive team without a bulky steel like Metagross. So to use offensive team combinations we have to use Metagross or a bulky steel....Sounds like centralizing... Do I make myself clear? Are you getting it now?

 

[cim]

The exact same thing happens when Electivire switches in on his team, you know?

Having a weakness to Pokémon with good type coverage doesn't make all pokemon with good type coverage Uber.

Seriously, listen to Bologo. He's never wrong.

 

[Bologo]

Well Bologo, it puts the team into immediate defensive mode with its entrance into battle. The battle from then on becomes a guessing game with an offensive team struggling to even get an attack off. It's not like Deoxys-E was even allowed to set up, its mere presence is a huge threat. Garchomp on the other hand (not comparising, just stating) is only a threat to the team after an SD, and even still its beatable. Deoxys-E can get multiple hits off before you can even hope to hit it. Sure you switch in Gyarados, then go to mamoswine, then Gyarados, then Yanmega, etc... every pokemon you've switched is taking some kind of damage and you haven't even landed an attack yet and revealed your whole team. Is that a flaw in the team or just that pokemon? Well, you can opt to counter that pokemon, but then you hamper your own strategy. Do I make myself clear?

Good point. I still want to know how something that reverses the pressure is a bad thing, and not good in any way though, especially when everyone was dominating with those teams, please answer that question. If Deoxys-S just so happens to lose against one of these teams, what is the rest of the DX-S user's team going to even be able to do about it if these teams are so good? Also, we don't have a definition for centralizing yet, so that doesn't really work for your argument.

Chris is me, yes I am wrong a lot of the time, that's why I'm trying to read these arguments a lot more intently now and listen to the other side so that I can have a chance at being right. -.-

 

[Tangerine]

The exact same thing happens when Electivire switches in on his team, you know?

Having a weakness to Pokémon with good type coverage doesn't make all pokemon with good type coverage Uber.

Seriously, listen to Bologo. He's never wrong.

I'm not sure where you're going with the X doesn't make a Pokemon Uber statements you keep making since I'm sure it's a combination of everything why people want it gone.

Also, guys, stop theorymonning. Why are we discussing how we can get around deoxys E with Iggybot's team with sheer theorymon? Don't make statements on it if you never played with it enough.

 

[RaikouLover]

The exact same thing happens when Electivire switches in on his team, you know?

Having a weakness to Pokémon with good type coverage doesn't make all pokemon with good type coverage Uber.

Seriously, listen to Bologo. He's never wrong.

Except I don't see any electric attacks for Electivire to switch into. Even then, he's not untouchable, as Infernape outspeeds it. If Electivire has no moto-drive, 4 out of his 6 pokemon outspeed it and all of them can do near fatal damage to it.

Edit: Tangerine, I'm trying to at least provide a model of an offensive team to prove a point. We can all site our experiences, but that doesnt seem to get any intelligent experiences other than "Deoxys-E never swept me."

 

[Goodbar]

The team was a good model. Once Deoxys is in play, whatever you switch in has to be able to take two hits from it. With good prediction, one of those hits might do very small damage, but with its nice movepool, most sweepers don't seem to have a chance against it, even if they just have to take one hit. And it can just safely switch out of most sweepers if it has to and come back another day, with the exception of Metagross and Dugtrio, which seems kind of centralizing like RL said... This is just considering our revenge killing friend.

@Spinner - Garchomp doesn't solely affect any playing styles with its presence in the metagame, neither do the rest. Deoxys has pretty nice defenses for a sweeper really, and priority moves don't hurt it that much, correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure it can survive two Xspeeds from +Lucario w/ LO. And the stall sets can run night shade.

 

[Ancien Régime]

-Frail defenses, this thing is like paper..which means
-Priority moves backed by a CB/Attack+ nature and EV's really hurt this thing. With SR up, it's usually a OHKO.
-Something that can take a hit, and hit back, will almost certainly finish Deoxys.
-The stall set is weak to ghosts that it can't Seismic Toss, and is destroyed by critical hits.

.

Please get your facts straight.

Deoxys-E has 50/95/95 defenses. It has roughly the same defenses as Starmie. Not tankish, but not horrible either.
Deoxys-E is only 2HKOed by Lucario LO Max Attack Extremespeed. And it only does around ~55%.
Everything is destroyed by critical hits.

 

[TheSpinner]

Goodbar - I really think that if Blissey was banned for a month the teams we'd see on Shoddy would be different. The thing is, she was never banned from the Metagame (not as far as I know, anyways). From that point of view, we were never able to see her impact. It would have been different if we played the Metagame for the first 2-3 months after D/P came out without Blissey, then introduced her.

Ancien Regime - Everything is destroyed by critical hits? This is a stall set, though. Not something built to be a sweeper. I think that when you have a stall set that is so weak to critical hits, that's a definite weakness.

 

[Thunderpup]

Also, Deoxys has some huge weaknesses

-Frail defenses, this thing is like paper..which means
-Priority moves backed by a CB/Attack+ nature and EV's really hurt this thing. With SR up, it's usually a OHKO.
-Something that can take a hit, and hit back, will almost certainly finish Deoxys.
-The stall set is weak to ghosts that it can't Seismic Toss, and is destroyed by critical hits.

I agree with a lot of this post, but I'd like to point some things out. Firstly, it has base 90 defenses, which are above average, and 50 base hitpoints which is considerably below average. However, with proper EV investment into HP, it's no longer paper thin. Lucario has 70/70/70 defenses to put this into perspective, though I'm not arguing that lucario has huge defenses. Saying he's like paper isn't giving credit to the defensive set.

Priority moves, I wholeheartedly agree. However, very few pokemon run Choice Band on an attack nature and EV's. Even fewer run a priority move. Mamoswine and Lucario come to mind as fufilling these requirements, and can usually be seen coming from a mile away. Good useful priority is far and few between, so having a nice wall behind deoxys secures it's return for another kill.

I entirely agree with the bulky pokemon who threaten with a OHKO. That's the biggest flaw with any sweeper. It's the nature of sweeping.

Lastly, deoxy's gets night shade, and can hit ghosts for 100 per turn. So don't think you can always wall the cosmic power set. This is significant, because few pokemon can stop the walling set who are immune to nightshade. Togekiss comes to mind.

 

[TheSpinner]

Good points. The stall set, however, relies purely on stat ups with Cosmic Power. As Critical Hits ignore stat ups, the stall set is very weak to criticals. It would basically be attacking Deoxys 50/95/95 defenses (along with respective EV investment). Everything gets hurt by criticals, yes, but the fact that something meant to and built to run a stall set is hurt that badly by criticals is a weakness in itself. Most other walls/stallers in the Metagame can definitely afford to take a critical or two that isn't SE, but Deoxys simply can't.

Edit: And, like I said, I think Deoxys is one of the pokemon that toe the line between Ubers/OU. This is simply because of his ability to bring down the effectiveness of pure offensive teams so much. However, when I think about Blissey's prescence, it's hard for me to justify Deoxys as an uber.

 

[RobertM]

I vote Stays OU

I've used it on my team for months and I'm not seeing anything wrong with it...