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Defining the NU Tier

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heh, there's a reason Heatran is top tier OU.

Anyways, I don't think Dunsparce should be NU... unlike Thunderwave, Glare has nothing immune to it, and STAB Headbutt and Rock Slide hit almost everything. There isn't really any good rocks or steels down in NU to handle it well enough.

It'll probably be doomed to be a UU that's never used...


I'm still on the fence about Kingler, personally. It has better stat placement than Crawdaunt, but a terrible movepool. Any water type absolutely trounces it, with moves like X-Scissor and Rock Slide to hit them with. The only thing it has on Poliwrath is Brick Break, and it can't touch Vileplume. I'm thinking it's UU matierial, but, like Dunsparce, he won't ever get used.
 
Uhhh, and you're just going to have three exploding psychics, just to support Clamperl... when Omastar and Kabutops could do it by themselves? I'm sorry, but I'm really not seeing this working out.

540 special attack is nothing short of amazing. I'll admit it. However, it's slow, it's frail, and it needs too much support to use. It's only 3HKOing Grumpig anyways, and he can probably OHKO it. There's also the Lanturn problem... no matter what Clamperl does, it has 3 turns to try to do it, and something will always wall it. Octillery can do just as good of a job, and he has better type coverage too.

I wouldn't complain too much about it though... if it gets booted to NU, you've got Xatu, Chimecho and Girafarig to set up for it, and there is fewer water resists down there.

Do you have calculations for those claims? Its had to imagine STAB Surf not 2HKOing Grumpig when the attacker has more attack then Deoxys.
 
I think he got it from the Clamperl analysis, it says it 3HKOs Grumpig and Hypno.

However, that is likely without Rain set up... :naughty:
 
Opponent attacks / switches.
Claydol used Rain Dance!

Opponent attacks! Claydol probably lives!
Claydol used Trick Room!

Claydol used Explosion!
Opponent probably dies.

Clamperl has 3 turns to fight. Of course, it can still take hits after Trick Room. It can actually survive a Poliwrath Focus Punch.
 
-Cynthia-
Dodrio,Granbull, Gorebyss, Linoone up


Granbull just isn't used enough to warrant definite UU status ...

At best, it'll end up like Crawdaunt and fall somewhere between UU & NU, however in reality poor speed, and average defences (slightly below on the special side) mean that it wouldn't over power a lower tier.

Obi
The only useful things I can see coming out of this thread would be deciding just how little use it has to receive in UU to be up for consideration in NU.

What would you suggest?

Obi
But please, please don't try and decide what ought to be banned in NU before even know what is really up for consideration, unless you want the UU / BL mess part 2.

I don't think anyone is trying to decide anything, and hopefully, everyone who participates in this discussion is aware that it is by no means binding. I think people are just happy to consider the possibilities, which simply was not possible in the stickied "UU" thread given its increasingly narrow focus.

One intersting point that has been raised, and seems to have been overlooked amidst the "excitement" about Clamperl, is the one regarding Stealth Rock ... which I honestly feel warrants discussion.
 
I'm not really counting on a tier between NU and UU currently, so I'm just putting things too powerful for NU into the Definite UU category.
 
Just looking through the list Cynthia presented on pages 3 or 4, Sudowoodo is much too powerful to be NU. Rock Polish/ Se/EQ/ Wood Hammer flat out demolishes most of the tier with a Rock Polish up. The only two things that seem like they can asorb its blows is Wormdam S and Wormdam G, which could lead to overcentralisation (everyone packing Wormdams to deal with Sudowoodo).

I honestly believe it would be healthier for the NU metagame if sudowoodo is UU.

I was in rush to type this so the argument might not be too good but still, Sudowoodo is too strong for NU
 
I do have one question though: are NFE Pokémon that do not belong in the UU tier (Scyther and Clamperl do, for example) part of the NU environment? Of course you may it makes no difference, but Pokémon like Diglett may see usage in NU due to its high 95 base Speed stat and equal moveset to Dugtrio (maybe replace Stone Edge with Rock Slide). This would certainly make the NU environment a much more creative and strategically dense metagame.

Also, I vote for Chatot to be placed in UU (Nasty Plot - Chatter - Hyper Voice - HP(Ground) / Encore) threatens potential sweeps with proper paralysis support, which isn't hard to achieve in the NU environment.
 
I do have one question though: are NFE Pokémon that do not belong in the UU tier (Scyther and Clamperl do, for example) part of the NU environment?

I don't think there is an answer to this yet ...

This would certainly make the NU environment a much more creative and strategically dense metagame.

Or necessitate the creation of futher tiers due to the sheer number.

Also, I vote for Chatot to be placed in UU (Nasty Plot - Chatter - Hyper Voice - HP(Ground) / Encore) threatens potential sweeps with proper paralysis support, which isn't hard to achieve in the NU environment.

With paralysis support a lot of things have the potential to sweep, so it should probably stay where it is for now ....
 
Or necessitate the creation of futher tiers due to the sheer number.

Not necessarily so. I can't imagine one NFE that isn't UU (except for perhaps Wynaut) that is overpowered for NU. Of course your point is another, but just like some UU have no usage at all, so would some NFE that aren't even NU material - that's all.

With paralysis support a lot of things have the potential to sweep, so it should probably stay where it is for now ....

Not many NU have the possibility of Encoring and raising their stat 2 stages or confusing incoming counters, not to mention how 91 Base Speed is high in the NU environment. I can do further testing on this myself...


EDIT: Speaking of which, I believe that placing Wynaut in a tier if of utmost importance, as if NFE that aren't UU are allowed in NU at some point, I can see the combination of Wynaut and Diglett running rampant as Wobbuffet and Dugtrio is at the moment (I may be wrong, as I vaguely remember seeing Wynaut being Uber at the time Wobbuffet also was, so maybe it is OU right now).
 
There aren't any ghosts, bar NFE's, who have not been decided what to do with yet, in UU.

Also, is Butterfree being ignored for the (hopefully finished) Clamperl BL/UU/NU argument or is it just for sure an NU. I'll still be happy to use it, but I feel like it should be in UU.
 
Ghosts aren't immune to Glare for the same reason Darks aren't immune to Hypnosis.

Sudowoodo also has Explosion, it gets a pretty deadly CB set in addition to Rock Polish.
 
I suppose I can move Butterfree up if there are enough complaints, but would it really be such a dominating force? It's 4x SR weak, has poor offenses and defenses, and is pretty slow to boot. Yeah it has accurate doublepowder, but that's about it.

I think there are enougn arguments for Clamperl to warrant its inclusion into UU anyway. Any of its suppsoed counters seem to be placed in the Definite UU category.

NFE's not placed on the tier lists already (Pokemon who have something making them better than one of their evolutions) are currently the same tier as their evolved form.

I never knew there was so much support for Suduwoodo. I'll move it into the BL category for now, I'm still doubtful about any slow Pokemon with bad SpDef though.

ODDish- I'd like to ban Stealth Rock from the NU environment (no spinners+ lots of SR weaks+ it was probably too good in the first place), but this is only a list for banning Pokemon from NU, not moves.
 
Can someone explain to me why Wormadam-Grass is classified as NU? Leaf storm from a 79 base Special Attack + Stab sounds a little strong for NU. I understand that its usually a one or MAYBE two shot attack depending on your opponent but with choice specs it seems very very powerful, similar to Draco Meteor Flygon (Flygon has 1 point better base sp.atk, but has better type coverage).

I am also aware of the horrid bug/grass quad weak to fire/flying, which seem to be very common in UU. That seems the most logical reason to me.
 
I think Mawile should be moved up to UU. Sing, intimidate + decent base defense, baton pass, swords dance, and iron defense/stockpile are too good for NU. I have seen Mawile a lot when I played UU and it was a really good BPer. It is definitely one of the weaker UU's but it isn't bad enough for NU, since it literally isn't "never used."
 
How's Sudowoodo NU? base 100 ATK and 115 DEF makes him something to be dealt with, especially a CB kaboom. Even if unbearably slow, he's much too strong for NU imho.

So I'm for Suduwoodo = UU

he'd also easily dominate all the weak bugs.
 
I've moved Huntail, Qwilifsh, and Purugly up after testing. Suduwoodo is moved up due to popular opinion,

Definite UUs
Absol
Aggron
Altaria
Ampharos
Armaldo
Blastoise
Cacturne
Camerupt
Clamperl
Claydol
Clefable
Cradily
Crawdaunt
Dodrio
Drapion
Drifblim
Electrode
Froslass
Gastrodon
Glaceon
Golduck
Gorebyss
Granbull
Grumpig
Hitmonchan
Hitmonlee
Hitmontop
Huntail
Hypno
Jumpluff
Jynx
Kabutops
Kanghaskhan
Lanturn
Lapras
Leafeon
Linoone
Luxray
Manectric
Mantine
Meganium
Muk
Nidoking
Nidoqueen
Ninetales
Noctowl
Omastar
Persian
Pikachu
Politoed
Poliwrath
Primeape
Probopass
Purugly
Quagsire
Qwilfish
Raichu
Rapidash
Relicanth
Rotom
Sandslash
Scyther
Sharpedo
Shiftry
Shuckle
Skuntank
Steelix
Suduwoodo
Swellow
Torkoal
Toxicroak
Venomoth
Victreebel
Vileplume
Wailord
Walrein

NU's
Arbok
Ariados
Bastiodon
Beautifly
Beedrill
Carnivine
Castform
Cherrim
Chimecho
Corsola
Delcatty
Delibird
Ditto
Dustox
Exploud
Farfetch'd
Fearow
Flareon
Furret
Girafarig
Glalie
Illumise
Kecleon
Kricketune
Ledian
Lumineon
Luvdisc
Magcargo
Masquerain
Mawile
Mightyena
Minun
Mothim
Pachirisu
Parasect
Pidgeot
Plusle
Sableye
Seaking
Seviper
Spinda
Sunflora
Swalot
Trapinch
Tropius
Unown
Vigoroth
Volbeat
Whiscash
Wigglytuff
Wormadam(all forms)
Xatu

Borderline
Bannete
Belossom
Bibarel
Butterfree
Chatot
Cloyster
Dewgong
Dunsparce
Golem
Kingler
Lopunny
Lunatone
Mr Mime
Octillery
Pelipper
Raticate
Solrock
Stantler
Vespiquen
 
I would say that Cloyster definitely belongs to UU. 180 Def + decent Speed + Spikes/Toxic Spikes + Rapid Spin + STAB on both Ice Beam/Surf is definitely UU material. I even use Cloyster sometimes on OU.
 
I had some difficulties getting on the past few days. >_> I apologize for that. Tomorrow, I might edit and crop the OP if I can get on and also read the rest of the thread to see what more experienced players have to say.

I vouch for Vespiquen to remain UU, as I have used her myself extensively and she is just absolutely demolishing. Vespiquen easily dismantles many walls and sweepers with STAB Attack Order (with crits, most walls that dont resist it are 2HKOs, but remember this has only base 80 attack and no Choice item versus things desgined to take hits), combined with the fact that she can easily shrug off anything but Rock attacks, which can still be survived with a Roost. SE Hidden Powers normally do in the range of 30-40% (Fire and Ice are most common) from big sweepers who do not have access to Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, or Flamethrower, and even Pokemon with access to those have similar 3HKO numbers when Vespiquen can 2HKO back, and obviously less for Tbolt and IB when Roost is used. Note that this is with only 252 HP invested in defenses: I run Brave and 252 Attack for the rest. To put this in perspective, Spiritomb preforms a similar job, to take out some walls and sweepers. While it has a better typing and movepool (the excellent STAB makes up for worse offensive stats), let me point out that it has 50/108/108 defenses, while Vespiquen boasts 70/102/102 defenses. In my honest opinion, 20 more HP makes more of a difference than 6 less defenses, yet nobody complains of Spiritomb's awful defenses (again, I am only comparing base stats, not the factors of typing right now for the purposes of perspective). Yeah, yeah, plenty of things wall it: but that's not the end. Vespiquen can always be counted on to get an enemy KO, even when a status cripples her, because Destiny Bond on such a defensive Pokemon is worse than Explosion because there is no accounting for types, offenses, etc. As exhibited in one of my warstories, I once stuck Vespiquen in the way of an unsuspecting Regirock late game when the means to take it out were limited. I proceeded to win the match, and I have won many matches simply by sticking Vespiquen as a sacrifice to take out the opponent's most menacing Pokemon. You can kind of say it's like a mini-Wobbuffet, especially since I run her on a Trick Room team. While Vespiquen obviously doesn't trap anything, the sheer element of surprise works like a Venus fly trap to potential counters. I will find some logs and give examples. As mentioned before, Roost is also big, since it pretty much removes the majority of Vespiquen's weaknesses and Rock attacks only do regular 2x damage, all for the cost of trading a Ground immunity to justa plain resistance. I usually find it a turn of peace when I heal a lot and have little damage done in return. Pressure-stalling, while very situational due to a weakness to status, will come in handy once in awhile.

Given the current NU list, even the Pokemon that resist AO will be given serious trouble (Aerial Ace is run for Poison and fellow Bug types), especially considering crit+awful defenses of NU's flying types+excellent defense as mentioned before. If Vespiquen is allowed into NU, practically every team will be forced to run Steel type + Rock attack, but that doesn't even matter because of Destiny Bond. Bastiodon and Wormadam-S are the only true counters I can count, by Toxi-stalling to death one on one. Of course, this is all if Vespiquen is used correctly, which given the analysis, is rare.
 
Just out of curiosity with regards to NFEs being considered in UU/NU - is it at all possible to include Hippopitas?

I believe its stats are excellent for NU - as in viable, not making it too uber.
It has sandstream for rock types to be boosted.
It has a completely viable learnset, as it doesn't get Stone Edge, the fangs, etc - the only moves it has are Slack Off, Curse, Stealth Rock, EQ, Rock Slide, Crunch, Body Slam, all working off of a *stellar* base 72 attack, not being able to boost much courtesy of its lackluster 78 Defense.


It is a question, and then this opens the door to other NFEs, like Critikarp, and Goddish (these are jokes, but you know what I mean).





Edit: I also petition for swalot to be BL or UU - base 100 hp, good special moveset. I think it might be too powerful for NU.
 
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