Theres also the fact that a lot of BL's are close to being OU. Crobat and Alakazam and Empoleon are just a few spots away. These pokes are OU material and shouldn't be put in a lower tier. If this whole BL purge does happen there has to be another tier where they can remain.
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DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)
- Thread starter Phuquoph
- Start date
OR we can just indeed boot all BL's to UU, the ones who end up being workable in that new tier becomes UU1, the ones below become UU2 and then we get NU.
Problem solved, tiers for everyone.
Problem solved, tiers for everyone.
Well, I don't think it's an 'excuse'. And also, it doesn't matter if all the UUs get labelled as NU. It'll still be exactly the same. It's just ridiculous how we now have about 40 interesting Pokemon who can't do anything in OU, but are banned from UU, so we never get to use them effectively. If we make all BLs UU, and then only ban the ones that truly need to be banned, people are hoping we can get a UU with about 50 Pokemon in, and where only about 10 Pokemon are banned.
If you want to play with them, then just play the BL metagame.
All this would be doing is disguising BL as UU so that the pokemon that would have been formerly BL would see more play due to the fact that more people play "the UU tier". The pokemon currently in UU now would be easily overshadowed by the pokemon that were once BL and would now be considered NU.
We'd then have a 100+ pokemon NU tier that would still need refining as there will be pokemon in this "NU" which as I will reinterate, is the current "UU" who will outclass each other. This would result in us having to make a new tier that would be like the NU of "NU".
Something like that is just a waste of time.
So why isn't BL an official tier? It may not be balanced right now, but what makes you think we can't balance it with a relatively small ban list?
I mostly agree with what you say here, but why is this a bad thing?
I most certainly do not think that the creation of four playable tiers instead of three is 'a waste of time'. Saying that it would require a lot of time and effort is not an excuse. Everything requires time and effort.
My question is why? Why move down the BL's, which will take over UU and then call themselves UU, forcing the former UU's to become something between UU and NU, and the NU's the become total and complete rejects? We already have BL, it doesn't need to be renamed. It just looks like we're trying to fix what isn't broken, in my opinion at least.
I don't think you guys are realizing how little will be done unless we move down the BLs. Something is brought up for testing almost daily, why continue this when we could just get it all fixed at once and have a more stable metagame? Sure some UUs will get replaced, but is that really a bad thing to happen? The UU metagame has started to become stale. We need drastic change in order to fix it. Sure it will suck when some people use teams of only the best BLs, but it is no different then in OU when people use that same small group of dominating pokemon. The pokemon deemed too powerful for UU must be retested to see how they can fit in with the other new pokemon added. With all the new walls, and possibly some new ones like Weezing, pokemon like Hariyama will not be too strong. With the way things are now, we essentially have a few BL pokemon in UU, but didn't bother to bring down any of their counters as well.
Despite all the explanations, moving the majority of BLs to UU is ridiculous. The majority of my Pokemon come from the BL tier, and I still hold my own very well (and win) with them.
Do you really think Pokemon like Staraptor, Alakazam, and Typhlosion would fit in equally with the UU metagame? Them, along with others would completely imbalance it. Which I guess puts me in accordance with what Luphrous said.
I love this game as much as the next person, but also like Luphrous said, I think we're just trying to fix what isn't broken. I'm not against moving a few Pokemon up or down the ladder, but to revolutionize an entire tier is drastic and unnecessary.
Rayfordjames:
To get away from the monotony of OU. OU consists of a lot of get in, sweep, and get out. While that may be true for some UUs to an extent, you can't say that UU functions exactly like OU, just with lesser capabilities.
Again, I don't think any tier is corrupted enough to be so drastic over it, but that may be just me.
Do you really think Pokemon like Staraptor, Alakazam, and Typhlosion would fit in equally with the UU metagame? Them, along with others would completely imbalance it. Which I guess puts me in accordance with what Luphrous said.
I love this game as much as the next person, but also like Luphrous said, I think we're just trying to fix what isn't broken. I'm not against moving a few Pokemon up or down the ladder, but to revolutionize an entire tier is drastic and unnecessary.
Rayfordjames:
You're forgetting a big reason as to why people play UU in the first place:
To get away from the monotony of OU. OU consists of a lot of get in, sweep, and get out. While that may be true for some UUs to an extent, you can't say that UU functions exactly like OU, just with lesser capabilities.
Again, I don't think any tier is corrupted enough to be so drastic over it, but that may be just me.
If you look at it, playing UU does not differ from OU all that much. Just replace Blissey with Clefable and Garchomp with Scyther. OU is not all sweep and run, all metagames shift between stall and offense from time to time. The drop will put us in offense, but it will shift once it's leveled out. Pokemon deemed too broken for the new UU won't stay UU, so comments such as Staraptor is too strong for UU are meaningless.
I just want to understand how conclusions are drawn that only a few BL pokes will be too powerful and how the rest of BL can fit in perfectly...
If BL pokes counter BL pokes, then were just going to see all BL pokemon and no UU's. It'll be centralized on those BL pokemon, and maybe just a few UU pokemon (and those that are frequently debated for BL) will be used.
If BL pokes counter BL pokes, then were just going to see all BL pokemon and no UU's. It'll be centralized on those BL pokemon, and maybe just a few UU pokemon (and those that are frequently debated for BL) will be used.
rayfordjames: Scyther's not used enough in UU to be compared to Garchomp is OU, nor does Scyther dominate the tier as much as Garchomp does in OU. Same goes for Clefable, not used on every other team out there, there are other special walls that work just as well, unlike how Bliss is the undisputed best Special wall in OU.
My other question for you is how has the UU game become stale? I don't see that at all, nor do I see anything unbalanced in this tier, hence why I feel like we're fixing what isn't broken. Could you at least try to explain so I can see things from your point of view?
My other question for you is how has the UU game become stale? I don't see that at all, nor do I see anything unbalanced in this tier, hence why I feel like we're fixing what isn't broken. Could you at least try to explain so I can see things from your point of view?
Maybe it is just the times that I log on, but UU teams I face are often rather similar to each other. I think a new batch of pokemon would liven things up a bit.
I've been working on a format that you guys might like, if you want a "BL Metagame". Basically it's been encompassing BL, UU, and the lowest tiers of OU, and tests from there. I doubt it'll actually just turn into UU again, because this new format will be founded on actual design principles instead of just reading usage graphs. Usage graphs are nice, but the why is as important as the what.
Anyone want to get behind me on this one and help me test it?
Anyone want to get behind me on this one and help me test it?
Just letting people know that BL play has always existed (and that's what I played primarily), although I don't understand what you mean by "the lowest tiers of OU". OU Pokemon are still OU; anything BL and below are open, so there's an extremely wide pool. And there were quite a few players, so don't argue "oh, nobody plays it except for AoK"! Everytime I come on, there's a variety of people and new players, so if you need to know the preformance of certain BLs I think shouldn't be tested for UU at all, let me know.
Also, at everyone else: BLs won't centralize everything especially since my team was half-UU before I went on hiatus. In that timeframe, Wish Hypno was banned and Steelix was moved down to UU, and Marowak is being considered for UU (I am against the move, but). UUs preform well in BL, some even more so due to other things not present in pure UU. Before you go freako like "BLS WILL KILL EVERYTHING", the only real threatening BLs in UU are the sweepers like Moltres, Raikou, Bellyzard, and Mismagius. Everything else, I feel, is quite stoppable, although only by certain, specific things (like how everything might have to pack Scyther/Hitmonlee to deal with Umbreon).
That's because the lowest pokemon of OU are pokemon who are needed to balance the BL pokemon. From a person who tried to play BL only, it's the most imbalanced thing -ever-, but you gotta keep in mind it's not an actual metagame. To make it official, I agree with Kittymew that usage only plays a minor role in this. Kittymew, can we see what you came up with so far?
I'm curious to know what you ran and what you were against. I played it for awhile and primarily; you only "tried". It takes a couple of matches to get used to all the possible threats anyways, so if you get 6-0 from one match due to a team oversight or a big mistake, it's normal and actually taught me valuable team building and playing skills (however, I still consider myself a better team builder than player x]). Still, tell me what "lowest Pokemon of OU" means. I am a neophyte to that. The fact that "it's not an actual metagame/tier" doesn't prevent people from playing, and BLs is actually quite playable. I also agree with the usage thing, though.
Staraptor, for example, has no safe switch in BL. If it's running Life Orb, sucks to be the pokemon switching in.
The entire "metagame" is offensively oriented, and Choice Scarf plays a big part here. When I "tried" it, I took into account a lot of scenarios and battled with some different teams and people. Don't assume stuff without any basis.
The entire "metagame" is offensively oriented, and Choice Scarf plays a big part here. When I "tried" it, I took into account a lot of scenarios and battled with some different teams and people. Don't assume stuff without any basis.
Nothing "switches in" to it because it's almost always a lead, and several leads can deal with it accordingly. I run a P2 lead, and CC does at best ~35% because of Traced intimidate. On the turn it CCs, I set up Trick Room, and on the next turn I can choose to kill it due to the defense drop if it stays in, or Recover or switch in a heavy sweeper to deal some damage if it switches (EDIT: U-turns). Staraptor has plenty of problems with status, which plenty of BL leads carry, and also the fact that some BL leads are extremely bulky. Kristy Floatzel, Umbreon, Drifloon (even though it's UU, I've seen it a lot as a typical BP lead), and Crobat are all examples of Pokemon who can dispose of it properly. It will also die to the myriad of Swift Swin RD leads, especially now that Kingdra has returned (although the majority of my playing time was when Kingdra was still BL anyways). Keep in mind that several of the Pokemon I listed, including P2, all have ways of somehow outspeeding and promptly dealing with it, and that none really need resistances or anything.
You can also say the same things about OU; in fact, they're truer about OU than BL. I've rarely ever seen Choice Scarf, due to the fact that most BL Pokemon require setting up and have their odd ways of going first including the methods I've mentioned above, and Choice items aren't necessarily convenient to use. The most common Choice item I've seen in BL is Choice Specs. There are only a couple of scenarios in BL to keep in mind, and most revolve around special sweepers rather than the physical sweepers of OU who are arguably more threatening.
Just because it's leading, doesn't mean if can't come back later on a predicted EQ and start dealing serious damage. And Life Orb isn't even a considered option for it.
Jolly Staraptor CC @ Life Orb vs standard Porygon2 (Max HP/257 DEF) after Intimidate - 53% - 62% - obvious 2HKO
Rain Dance in BL is even more threatening now, because stuff like Celebi, Vaporeon and Blissey are gone, while Kingdra and Ludicolo can start ripping through teams.
BL is far away from being balanced. I'm still waiting to see what Kittymew has to offer.
Eh, I don't feel like arguing about that stuff since I feel we're going off topic here. The only way stuff like this should be resolved is by voting. Hopefully, after Garchomp and other issues are taken care of, UU/BL will be discussed officially when the community will get to vote on the matter.
Jolly Staraptor CC @ Life Orb vs standard Porygon2 (Max HP/257 DEF) after Intimidate - 53% - 62% - obvious 2HKO
Rain Dance in BL is even more threatening now, because stuff like Celebi, Vaporeon and Blissey are gone, while Kingdra and Ludicolo can start ripping through teams.
BL is far away from being balanced. I'm still waiting to see what Kittymew has to offer.
Eh, I don't feel like arguing about that stuff since I feel we're going off topic here. The only way stuff like this should be resolved is by voting. Hopefully, after Garchomp and other issues are taken care of, UU/BL will be discussed officially when the community will get to vote on the matter.
looks quite interesting to me. ok, but tell me more about it first.
Now that there is an UU ladder we can get things done much more effectively.