DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)

[gengod]

How about because the decision to ban them was based on the premise that the current UU metagame is both stable and truly reflective of what UU stands for ... when in reality it is neither.

There were not banned on the premise that UU is stable and i'm not sure what your getting at with the mention of what "UU stands for" since UU is simply what it sounds like "underused". Pokemon that are not OverUsed are UnderUsed and those deemed too powerful for OU are BorderLine it's as simple as that.

Houndoom and Empoleon were banned on the premise that people thought they are too powerful for UU and thus would create even more instability in the tier, but by no means did anyone say that the tier was balanced or actually stable.

 

[Luphrous]

If people who think the UU metagame is already fairly balanced are in the minority, then I guess I'm one of them. I don't see how it's unbalanced, there's no poke I see in UU that does that. As suggested by rkatzam, adding a ladder and then bringing down some BL pokes for testing every month or so, I think that would be a much easier way to decide if a poke is UU or BL.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

As suggested by rkatzam, adding a ladder and then bringing down some BL pokes for testing every month or so, I think that would be a much easier way to decide if a poke is UU or BL.

But again that defeats the purpose of the proposed overhaul of UU, which would assume nothing about the way UU would end up. Testing one or two Pokemon from time to time will prove nothing. By that logic, we could introduce Gengar into UU for testing (ignoring the fact that it is OU for the moment), see that it is horribly overcentralizing, and declare that it cannot exist within a balanced tier. We know very well that this is not the case.

 

[Luphrous]

So if pokemon A is brought down and is too strong, it goes to BL. Bringing down counters to it from BL to counter it is kinda pointless, why fix what isn't broken?

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

So if pokemon A is brought down and is too strong, it goes to BL. Bringing down counters to it from BL to counter it is kinda pointless, why fix what isn't broken?

Because I think it is pointless to have a ban list any longer than what is necessary. Many people in this thread have already said that they think UU would eventually become unchanged from what it is now after executing Obi's proposal, but nobody has mentioned why they think this. I am unconvinced, and will remain so until people start bringing up evidence or even some good theorymon to back up their claims.

 

[obi]

The issue here comes down to one simple point.

If you believe that how things are is automatically right, then my proposal is obviously bad. To hold this position, you have to give a god-like status to the people who created the pre-DP tiers for DP. I was involved in this discussion, however. In other words, I must have been infallible then, but have lost it now. To hold this position, Electivire, Manaphy, Rampardos, and Rhyperior must be OU now and forever.

If you believe that tiers are what we make of them, then you realize that no Pokemon is automatically "a UU Pokemon". You're likely one of the people who weren't appalled when Tentacruel was removed from UU when it got enough usage to be OU, because you don't believe Tentacruel must be UU or there is something wrong. To hold this position, you must be willing to test things, and, if the test results don't give the exact same game we have now, you must not assume that something is therefore wrong.

I fall into that second group. I don't think decisions made before anyone was playing DP, let alone DP UU, should have any weight when talking about how things are now.

I sincerely doubt that things won't change. We are almost certain to get a few new Pokemon allowed in UU through this testing. This has the advantage of increasing the potential pool of Pokemon usable in NU. I don't see how adding another potential tier for competitive play is a bad thing.

 

[Bourbon]

I'm merely afraid that we won't get any visible results by dropping all the BLs down at one time... why would people use Ninetales when they could use Moltres? Why use Hitmonchan when you could use Medicham? Why use Blastoise when you could use Slowbro or Milotic?

When the BLs get dropped down, the guys that used to be UU won't be used at all, so basically, I think we'll end up testing to see which BLs are good against eachother. To do it properly, why don't we drop them down in groups... that way, you won't be able to make a coherent team out of pure BL, and you'd have to use UU sometimes.

 

[Kagster123]

I actually like that suggestion skiddle. But what type of groups? Based on type, stat total, or just randomly? Theres a lot of ways.

 

[ODDish]

why would people use Ninetales when they could use Moltres? Why use Hitmonchan when you could use Medicham? Why use Blastoise when you could use Slowbro or Milotic?

How about because despite sharing a type these pokemon actually play differently to each other?

 

[Cynthia]

I'm merely afraid that we won't get any visible results by dropping all the BLs down at one time... why would people use Ninetales when they could use Moltres? Why use Hitmonchan when you could use Medicham? Why use Blastoise when you could use Slowbro or Milotic?

When the BLs get dropped down, the guys that used to be UU won't be used at all, so basically, I think we'll end up testing to see which BLs are good against eachother. To do it properly, why don't we drop them down in groups... that way, you won't be able to make a coherent team out of pure BL, and you'd have to use UU sometimes.

See, that's my problem with it as well. Having two teams that are currently BL fight each other tells us nothing about how they would affect UU.

 

[Trust]

Skiddle, with Obi's idea we will have a stronger UU tier, that's true, but NU will get some old UU stuff, so you can use Hitmonchan or Ninetales in a similar tier.

Furthermore, Ninetales is really different to Moltres: Ninetales plays with Hypnosis and Nasty Plot, while Moltres uses Choice Scarf or Specs and Pressure abuser. About Hitmonchan and Medicham, the former is bulkier than the second one, and it has a strong Mach Punch with Iron Fist.

Every pokemon will have their own niche, but Medicham would be used more because of a better niche.

 

[beefdreams]

The thing is, if we drop the BLs down in groups, we cannot see their effect on each other as well as the UUs. The BLs outclass the UUs in some stats, but rarely all around, so the UUs will still be used. Why use Hitmonchan when you can use Medicham? Because you want something that can take a hit, or you want to use a Bulk Up set. Why use Blastoise instead of Slowbro or Milotic? Because you want a spinner and a bulky water.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

why would people use Ninetales when they could use Moltres?

Ignoring the obvious differences in stats, typing and movepool for a second, the real question here should be 'So what if everybody uses Moltres over Ninetales?' The result would be that Moltres is a staple UU whilst Ninetales is NU, simple as that.

I'll reiterate the point once more that people don't seem to be grasping:

The fact that a Pokemon is top UU right now does not mean that UU should permanently revolve around them. Nothing is inherently UU.

 

[Kagster123]

Or you could just send Moltres back to BL.

 

[beefdreams]

Or you could just send Moltres back to BL.

but why do that if it fits in UU?

 

[Kagster123]

It'd only fit in UU if the Borderline pokemon were present there. Unless you guys want to just shift the current BL tier as UU and move everything else to NU.

 

[Bourbon]

How about because despite sharing a type these pokemon actually play differently to each other?

Milotic does everything Blastoise does and more, and it gets Recover... Medicham is faster than Hitmonchan and has much more attack. Don't kid yourself ODDish, no one is going to use those guys anymore except for a few UU "pursists" like yourself, me, and maybe a few others in this thread.

 

[beefdreams]

Milotic does everything Blastoise does and more, and it gets Recover... Medicham is faster than Hitmonchan and has much more attack. Don't kid yourself ODDish, no one is going to use those guys anymore except for a few UU "pursists" like yourself, me, and maybe a few others in this thread.

As we said earlier, they can fill different roles. Milotic does not have Rapid Spin, and Medicham is made of glass.

 

[Kagster123]

Since Medichams a hit and run poke wearing either band or scarf, it doesn't matter if hes frail. And Milotic has everything over Blastoise except rapid spin. Having Recover, Hypnosis, 20 more base SpD, 16 more base HP, and 15 more base special attack, and also just a tad bit more speed to outspeed it if they were in a match, makes Milotic clearly better. Blastoise has more Defence, but Milotics ability makes up for it. Milotic also doesn't have to resort to Toxic with messing up the opponent.

 

[Luphrous]

Yes, but the only thing Blastoise has over Milo is RS. If Milo is moved down, then RS then becomes the only reason to use Blastoise instead of Milo. Come now, Medicham would see much more use then Hitmonchan and we all know it. So what if Medicham is a glass cannon? Most people run Choice sets anyways, he's just meant to attack and get out. Basically I think quite a few BL pokes can do what current UU's can do, only better. I just think it'll end up looking like BL instead of UU.

EDIT: Kagster typed his out at the same time as mine, hence why I said the same thing lol

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Unless you guys want to just shift the current BL tier as UU and move everything else to NU.

Well we don't 'want' to do that in particular, but we do want to create a balanced UU tier with a smaller ban list than we have now. If that means a tier dominated by current BLs, as it almost certainly will turn out, then so be it; they will make up UU. However there are sure to be at least 'some' current UUs that fill a niche role in this new tier.

Milotic does everything Blastoise does and more, and it gets Recover

Even if that were true, Milotic is OU so that argument is irrelevant to this discussion.

 

[ODDish]

Milotic does everything Blastoise does and more, and it gets Recover...

I must have overlooked Milotic's rapid spinning ability.

Don't kid yourself ODDish, no one is going to use those guys anymore except for a few UU "pursists" like yourself, me, and maybe a few others in this thread

If people don't use them, then they don't use them.

If that means a significant portion of what is currently deemed "UU" is moved to a lower tier, then so be it, all that matters to me is that there is an environment in which they can compete.

I am intrigued however what being a "UU purist" actually involves ...

 

[beefdreams]

Yes, there are very few things some of the UUs have over the BLs. That doesn't mean they will not be used though. Depending on what your team needs, and how you play, you will use different pokemon. That is why people still use UUs in OU. Very few of the UU pokemon are completely outclassed in all areas by BLs.

 

[Kagster123]

Thing is that the game will turn extremely offensive, you now have pokemon that are extremely powerful and all their main counters are in OU.

Making about 85% of the UU tier going into NU just because you want a few BL pokes tested or put into the tier isnt fun.

 

[rkatzam]

Thing is that the game will turn extremely offensive, you now have pokemon that are extremely powerful and all their main counters are in OU.

Making about 85% of the UU tier going into NU just because you want a few BL pokes tested or put into the tier isnt fun.

That is exactly the point. Some people seem to want a new UU, which is in fact more BL oriented... it's just an excuse to use BL who aren't really used in OU in a more "fitting" game to their level, disguised as "UU". It's like the entire UU metagame will get an "upgrade" to be closer to OU.. while "NU" will become the new "UU". But despite that, I'm not objecting anything because if that's what the majority wants, that is what the majority should get.. I just hope the UU metagame doesn't get -completely- trashed.