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Defining the NU Tier

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Yes, Hippo and Snover are banned if you saw the BL/UU sticky.

Swalot is NU due to being completely outclassed by Muk. I agree it isn't terrible, but Muk is just so much better.

&&I think I should go through and respond to people vouching for certain Pokemon. >_<
da big blast said:
AoK - why is Butterfree on your list of NUs? Thats not true IMO.
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Butterfree is only useful for statusing: nothing else. As a lead, it will either die to Swellow, Scyther or something along those lines, or face something that will just laugh at it and proceed to set up in its face (Persian is a prime example). Even if you argue that it is seeing some use, it is still entirely stoppable. Extremely fragile, predictable, and with the exception of the odd Choice Scarf, remember that Butterfree was also NU last gen before the introduction of Stealth Rock and faster Technician Pokemon.

Toxicroak.
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While Toxicroak is a good Pokemon and is immune to water moves, 83/65/65 defenses which are rarely invested into don't necessitate it switching in to every threat just because it can resist a move or two.

As for Cloyster, I am also on the fence about it. For the previous poster, its preformance in OU doesn't count at all. I agree with Cynthia that Stealth Rock should be banned from NU due to a lack of viable spinners (currently, only Delibird even learns it). If Stealth Rock is banned, there should be no reason for Cloyster to be in NU, because its weakness to it balances it out a bit (as well as the issue with Spikes and spinning; Toxic Spikes is not an issue for obvious reasons). However, I feel that it is grossly inferior to other bulky Waters with a lack of instant recovery. Corsola can be named a counter with some investment in special defense and STAB special Rock moves, because as mentioned before, Cloyster will have to run a set like Surf/Ice Beam or Shard/HP Grass/Explosion to cover everything, and that's uncommon and a waste of its potential. Wormadam-S, -G, and Minun have their ways of taking it out as well. More than ever before, we also have Pokemon that can take it out offensively, but cannot exactly switch into it, such as Mothim, Plusle and *gulp* possibly Pachirisu and Cherrim if the sun is set up.
At the same time, people have brought up good points, namely decent offenses (particularily base 95 attack and access to Ice Shard). If RD is set up, it can only be revenge killed by Scarf Mothim or Plusle. Its counters are better found in UU, so...the jury's still out on this.
 
I agree on the case of Buttefree. I moved it to Borderline due to several arguments against, but the fact remians that its slow with low attacking and defensive stats. It statuses, then dies.

Swalot (why did they even make this by the way? such a pointless pokemon) has decent defenses,but not good enough to be a universal wall and its not sweeping anytime soon.

Also, Vespiquen's defenses are quite solid, epseically considering that she can use Defense Order and bcome nearly unbreakable. Bug/Flying is poor typing, but her base stats are probably too much for NU.

SR should be banned, but there is no precedent for banning moves within a particular tier. I'm not sure it can be done.
 
-Cynthia- said:
I agree on the case of Buttefree. I moved it to Borderline due to several arguments against, but the fact remians that its slow with low attacking and defensive stats. It statuses, then dies.

Swalot (why did they even make this by the way? such a pointless pokemon) has decent defenses,but not good enough to be a universal wall and its not sweeping anytime soon.

Also, Vespiquen's defenses are quite solid, epseically considering that she can use Defense Order and bcome nearly unbreakable. Bug/Flying is poor typing, but her base stats are probably too much for NU.

SR should be banned, but there is no precedent for banning moves within a particular tier. I'm not sure it can be done.
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On the issue of SR, note that Sonicboom and Dragon Rage are banned in Little Cup, so there is at least a metagame precedent, and the Smogon server on Shoddy plans to test it in OU along with Garchomp. And if not...we can make a precedent for ourselves, because there is no reason that it should be allowed if it makes NU practically unplayable, as well as the fact that perhaps people make their own personal rules and refusing to play people who use it.

Since now there is a UU ladder, we can wait for a couple of months about Butterfree. I personally put my money that it's NU. I think this is the first case where we can judge on usage vs. theorymon, as well as a couple of other things.

Yay, no opposition against Vespiquen....although Defend Order will sacrifice either coverage or the ability to take something down. Although this is where Pressure+access to auto-healing comes in. I personally believe that the only reason Vespiquen isn't widespread is its typing, but it should be noting that she perfectly compliments many Rapid Spinners resistance, making using a slot for her viable.
 
Bastiodon is not on any of the lists. I would definitely put it in NU, but I'm guessing it's going to wall too well with so many bug, flying, and poison types. However, it's terrible typing and lack of offense might make it ok. Put it in borderline.
 
The list on page 5 places Bastiodon in NU. It can wall things, but I guess its HP Fighting/Ground time for them now, no?
 
I see no reason not to allow Flareon in NU. Its movepool offsets is physical attack, its typing sucks, its SpDef is good but its HP sucks, physical attacks such as Poke and Stiff Breeze tend to OHKO it, and its special attack (its only real asset) isn't that great, and oh look...its special movepool is terrible too!

I only dream of a world where Flareon learns Crunch and Flare Blitz, and the elemental fangs have a move tutor...I pray for Platinum to save this poor beleagured Pokemon somehow.

I don't see Noctowl as the "Special Skarmory of UU"...I've never once seen it used outside of theorymon, and even in theorymon it gets its ass kicked. I don't think it would be out of place here. Anything with a physical super effective move is going to OHKO, and anything with Growth and some speed can annihilate it as it comes in. What exactly does Noctowl wall, other than Pokemon with very weak special attacks? I understand that in NU it would make an effective wall, but honestly I think that's good. It doesn't have anything that sets it out so far that it's anything besides a wall with a very slow Hypnosis.

Also, unlike some walls, Taunt = Noctowl stops working, unless you're that afraid of Night Shade or Air Slash.
 
Noctowl is very effective, much more than you insinuated. I'm not commentating on its tier placement, but it definitely is NOT a bad UU Pokemon. It does a very excellent job of walling UU Pokemon that do not have STAB Ice or Electric attacks, and it can phaze with Whirlwind, has reliable recovery in Roost, and is a great status absorber with Insomnia + Psycho Shift. I've used on myself, and I wasn't disappointed.
 
With all due respect Kittymew if you've never used Noctowl or actually seen anyone use it, then I don't see how you can offer a fair critique of it.

As umbersac mentioned it can be an incredibly useful addition to a team. Admittedly it does not see the same level of useage as either Hypno or Grumpig, perhaps because it requires a little more thought to use effectively. Make no mistake though, it can be an incredibly useful special wall, and I favour it over both of the former for its ability to stop the increasingly popular Venomoth dead in its tracks.

That being said, should usage see it fall into NU, it would make a very welcome addition to the tier and would not be overpowering/centralising ...
 
Actually, Bastiodon is more than people give it credit for. I almost got my ass kicked by it once, and it'll wall entire teams provided that you get rid of any Fighting or Ground moves.....which actually are a bit rare in NU, because there's barely anything to use them against. However, the ability of a lot of things to set up on it also cannot be overlooked.

Kittymew, I can recant several of those points. Firstly, Flareon now gets WoW to offset that terrible defense, so anything not Torkoal or Camerupt will have to take care switching in. It can also Yawn and Body Slam for other status. There are walls with far worse base HP than Flareon, with either defense pretty near its level. I'm testing it right now, and it solved my Ninetales problem. People treat Flareon as purely offensive, but don't forget it can also Wish-Pass. It can also kill things on occasion: I slap on Overheat and Return. Of course, this is still a gimmicky team in testing stages before I go on ladder, so it has had its share of problems as well. I don't oppose in in NU, and I honestly think it certainly has more opportunities there.
I find Noctowl is not as effective as a general special wall as Hypno (who suddenly lost its usefulness, as least to me, when Wish was banned on Shoddy)/Grumpig, but it certainly is useful. Auto-healing, PHazing, the ability to get rid of status....I find it cool as well, although I never used it. The only reason, I think, that it isn't used as often is the weakness to common moves.
 
Age of Kings said:
I find Noctowl is not as effective as a general special wall as Hypno (who suddenly lost its usefulness, as least to me, when Wish was banned on Shoddy)/Grumpig, but it certainly is useful. Auto-healing, PHazing, the ability to get rid of status....I find it cool as well, although I never used it. The only reason, I think, that it isn't used as often is the weakness to common moves.
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Hypno has Wish again on the Smogon server since Event Moves have been brought back there.

I find that the turn-off with Noctowl compared to the other Special walls is the Stealth Rock weakness. Since he's not very fast, he may find himself in a lot of trouble when he needs to Roost off that Stealth Rock damage to survive the next attack. Unlike the other special walls, he's also completely screwed if he's Taunted. Night Shade is usually his only form of attack, and he's basically forced to switch out if he's Taunted, which makes SR damage add up very quickly. I still think he's cool, but I just wanted to throw some of those points out there about Noctowl.
 
Age of Kings said:
Actually, Bastiodon is more than people give it credit for. I almost got my ass kicked by it once, and it'll wall entire teams provided that you get rid of any Fighting or Ground moves.....which actually are a bit rare in NU, because there's barely anything to use them against. However, the ability of a lot of things to set up on it also cannot be overlooked.
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I agree with Bastiodon being better than its reputation (its reputation right now being "useless"), but NU still is where it belongs. Basti is actually going to be effective in that tier, with hardly any STAB Ground & Fighting attacks to be afraid of, pissing off the millions of Bugs and Poisons with Curse-boosted EQs, Stone Edges and Metal Bursts. That, and it's just outclassed in UU by Aggron and Probopass. And I say that as a Bastiodon fanboy.
 
@Bologo: Didn't notice, thanks for letting me know.

@Boingo: I never argued against Bastiodon in NU, but yeah. It's not useless at all. Although a couple run Rock Blast in case of very random Sub-Punchers.
 
Bologo
Unlike the other special walls, he's also completely screwed if he's Taunted. Night Shade is usually his only form of attack, and he's basically forced to switch out if he's Taunted, which makes SR damage add up very quickly.
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Fortuantely Taunt seems to see far less use in UU than in higher tiers of play ... or else I've been incredibly fortnate in avoiding it.
 
Can't help but notice Corsola isn't anywhere on that tier list from Cynthia. Don't think it needs much discussion, but it's definite NU.

Awful typing, pretty shallow movepool, and its highest stats are 85.


I'm also for banning Stealth Rock in NU, if it means any.

Bastiodon should stick in UU, in my opinion. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but there are very little (if any) Ground and Fighting moves in NU. In which case, there'd be pretty much nobody to combat him even somewhat decently. Sure, he's outclassed by Aggron in UU itself, but he may be too much for NU.

I vote Flareon stay in UU. While not the best move in the world, Fire Fang is still a somewhat decent physical STAB for it. While I understand why it's UU because of it, I disagree to it being moved to NU because its move just isn't that powerful.

I haven't seen a Cursing Mamoswine since they first ever became used, all the ones I've encountered within the past couple months pack Ice Fang, which is in the same boat as Flareon with Fire Fang. It may have Earthquake, but so many switch-ins to Mamoswine can Levitate or resist Earthquake's Ground-typing, leaving it to work with Ice Fang most of the time.

Not trying to start a Mamoswine conversation in the slightest, just trying to provide some form of argument as to why Flareon should be relegated to NU because of a relatively weak STAB and pretty shallow movepool.
 
Sunflora - I kinda disaggre with Sunflora in NU. I think it should be in UU or even BL (where I think it was in for a while way back when). With Solar Power + Choice Specs + 252 SpA EVs it can become a powerful sweeper, taking out my Spiritomb after around 5 turns and Gyarados in around 4. Plus, a full blown Leaf Storm can do around 200 damage to Garchomp, Spiritomb and Gyarados, and can OHKO Gastrodon and Swampert.


Flareon - Way too powerful for NU. It can take out (with luck) some top OU Pokemon (I have Roserade and Forretress myself) and even though it's best Fire move is Fire Fang, most Pokemon who have better movepools do anyway. And there aren't many Pokemon who are plain 'ol Fire are there? Typholsion, meh-ish. Rapidash, *shudder*. Torkoal........ no. Maybe Magmortar but come on. It beats half at least :P.


Mamoswine - Not trying to pick up what the last guy tried not to start but I've seen many Cursoswines (and use one myself) and they are sometimes hard to predict (Ice Fang? Earthquake? Stone Edge? Peck? (Peck is used))


Xatu - Seen it twice before and both times an un-expected Shadow Ball saw death to my Dusknoir. 'Nuff said.


Mothim - My brother turned this poop-bug into a killer. Forgot how he did it, but I know it was Choice Specs and had something to do with Bug Buzz and Shadow Ball but I forget eaisly :P


Also noticed a few UU's that deserve a look at BL. Notably: Drapion, Froslass, Altaria, Hitmonchan, Wailord, Toxicroak, Probopass. Aggreing with what people say about Butterfree and also noting lack of Phione.
 
girfanatic501 said:
Sunflora - I kinda disaggre with Sunflora in NU. I think it should be in UU or even BL (where I think it was in for a while way back when). With Solar Power + Choice Specs + 252 SpA EVs it can become a powerful sweeper, taking out my Spiritomb after around 5 turns and Gyarados in around 4. Plus, a full blown Leaf Storm can do around 200 damage to Garchomp, Spiritomb and Gyarados, and can OHKO Gastrodon and Swampert.


Flareon - Way too powerful for NU. It can take out (with luck) some top OU Pokemon (I have Roserade and Forretress myself) and even though it's best Fire move is Fire Fang, most Pokemon who have better movepools do anyway. And there aren't many Pokemon who are plain 'ol Fire are there? Typholsion, meh-ish. Rapidash, *shudder*. Torkoal........ no. Maybe Magmortar but come on. It beats half at least :P.


Mamoswine - Not trying to pick up what the last guy tried not to start but I've seen many Cursoswines (and use one myself) and they are sometimes hard to predict (Ice Fang? Earthquake? Stone Edge? Peck? (Peck is used))


Xatu - Seen it twice before and both times an un-expected Shadow Ball saw death to my Dusknoir. 'Nuff said.


Mothim - My brother turned this poop-bug into a killer. Forgot how he did it, but I know it was Choice Specs and had something to do with Bug Buzz and Shadow Ball but I forget eaisly :P


Also noticed a few UU's that deserve a look at BL. Notably: Drapion, Froslass, Altaria, Hitmonchan, Wailord, Toxicroak, Probopass. Aggreing with what people say about Butterfree and also noting lack of Phione.
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The Status of the pokemon in OU can't be taken into account because this thread is solely about NU. This thread isn't about moving pokemon into BL because that's already been decided.
 
Mamoswine has completely different typing, secondary STAB, and can use Ice Shard as its physical ice STAB. Flareon has Fire Fang and has nothing else physical to back it up(lol Return). Kind of a huge difference.

Corsola is NU, thank you pointing that out.

While NU will lack fighting types and has relatively few ground types, Bastiodon's main problem is its lack of offense.

girfanatic, there is a thread to for UU/Bl discussion. Also many of the issues you pointed out seem to be perosnal issues and not reasons why the Pokemon is question ia too powerful. Xatu is not imbalanced because it can Shadow Ball, and SpecsMothim is hardly noteworthy. Also 5HKOing Spiritomb is not exactly cause for concern.
 
If anything, SpecsMothim is an inferior Venomoth, except with only 4 points better special attack. I plan on packing Scarf Mothim, since Nasty Plot is easily passed anyways.
 
By the way, the purpose of this thread has now changed somewhat IMO. Since there is a UU ladder, usage can determine the placement of UU's into NU. But as we all know, basing tiers purely off of usage can cause issues, so this thread can act as sort of a beginning for an NU/UU Borderline tier. If Lapras or something would suddenly drop in usage there is currently no safety net to stop it from wrecking NU.
 
-Cynthia- said:
By the way, the purpose of this thread has now changed somewhat IMO. Since there is a UU ladder, usage can determine the placement of UU's into NU. But as we all know, basing tiers purely off of usage can cause issues, so this thread can act as sort of a beginning for an NU/UU Borderline tier. If Lapras or something would suddenly drop in usage there is currently no safety net to stop it from wrecking NU.
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We're thinking too far ahead, since we need at least 2 or three months of statistics to really get a true picture before we start doing stuff like that. As of yet, we don't even have the first month's stats, nor do we have any cut-off point (do we even need one like they do with OU?).
 
I think that Dewgon should be in UU. In a rain dance team (which are very common in uu - not sure about nu), it can work very well as a special wall with hydration. It can come in on nearly any special attacker in uu and get a rain dance and rest +hydration is just stupidly effective. Its typing is its only curse. STAB ice beam and STAB surf is a good combo though. With a good supportive movepool and one of the best abilities in the game, I think it should stay in UU.
 
In a rain dance team (which are very common in uu - not sure about nu), it can work very well as a special wall with hydration.
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They're not all that common in Nu because most of the "good" rain dance abusers are definitely UU (some probably should be higher than that).

What is the general feeling on Granbull?
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That its a "definite UU" ... although to be honest I feel people are giving it far more credit than it deserves. I dropped it from my own ladder team pretty quickly.
 
What is up with Carnivine in NU? It seems way too powerful - I use one in OU with a gimmick Iron Ball/fling set since it already resists ground moves. It can use Sleep powder, Power Whip (well) Crunch, and subseed, although it subseeds poorly due to its horrendous speed. That being said, I think that it can be at least UU or BL. I have always KO'd at least one poke using it provided it didn't get OHKO (rarely in NU except against Bug/Flying pokes) It just seems that it could use some testing.
 
IloveslakingIGN, please understand that "evidence" you provided in invalid. Why should a pokemon in either UU or NU be judged in relation with OU pokemon that they're never going to face in their respective UU and NU enviroment? It doesn't make any sense to me.

Perhaps Carnivine is too powerful for NU but please site some NU and UU evidence to back up your claim. Not just "Oh I had it KO something".

Now I think I'm going to be paying more attention to this thread because DP's NU seems to have more variety than Advances.
 
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