The purpose of the tiers

[Droideka88]

I just came up with that on the fly.
And not sure how this is even a criticism.

On the contrary, this isn't criticism. Up until now, I've heard very few people bring up the mention of renaming tier names. You're one of those few people.

On the other hand, pkes like Mamoswine/Pilowsine and Yanmega/Yanma are played exactly liek their final forms, and thus should not be considered as seperate pokemon. Do you see what I am getting at?

Yanmega/Yanma IMO aren't necessarily the same Pokemon. One trait that stands Yanma out compared to Yanmega its Compoundeyes abiltiy, which better supports the accuracy of Yanma's Hypnosis. Yanma is a force to be reckon with if it was ever tested in the UU/NU metagame.

Watch Overhazards's PBR videos on Youtube if you want to fully see Yanma's potential. I've already considering Ev training a Yanma for myself..

 

[Chill]

This isn't what the tiers mean.

Really? I can't use ubers in the OU. I can't use OU pokemon in UU. Unless I'm missing something that seems like a pretty easy to grasp explanation.

Every Pokemon that isn't uber can be used in OU. You could use Kricketot in OU. It's not used enough to be OU. Tentacruel is used too much to be underused.

I know, I get that. I was just saying that I didn't really understand why a pokemon would be assigned certain based tier when that did not necessarily have anything to do with their usabilty (tentacruel). Actually I wasn't just saying that but that was more or less one of the things I was asking.

 

[Absolution]

I'd love some wholesale renaming to finally end this pointless confusion.

Uber -> "All" or "Top banlist"
OU -> "Top"

BL -> "Middle banlist"
UU -> "Middle"

Limbo -> "Bottom banlist"
NU -> "Bottom"

I actually really love those names personally. We could use the simplicity of them. Just makes the entire thing easier. You could even add "Used" after each height word; "Top Used" - just to keep up with the current pattern.

 

[Chou Toshio]

SWChill-- You have to start from the purpose of tiering.

The purpose of having multiple tiers is to be able to use more pokemon.

In which case, the purpose of UU is to use pokemon not seen commonly in OU. Thus if Tentacruel is seen commonly in OU, allowing it in UU defeats the very pupose of UU.

In the tiering system, "seen commonly in OU" is defined as OU, the list of pokemon that have been in the top 75% useage for the last 3 months (X-Act releases the list every month). Shuckle is not popular enough to get on this list, and it does not overpower UU, so it is UU.

If tentacruel falls off this useage list, than there is no longer anything that keeps it out of UU (it doesn't over power UU) so it becomes UU. Get it?

Finally, people will stop making BL/UU teams, I hope.

If you think people shouldn't play BL, than you must also think people shouldn't play Ubers. Just the metagame is unbalanced doesn't mean that you can't play it. :/


edit:

Actually, if Obi's plan to raise the level of UU went through, and we had a much stronger UU tier and much smaller BL tier, we would probably see many more pokemon switching back and forth between OU and UU-- for instance, if Kingdra/Spiritomb was balanced in the new UU, it could be in the same situation.

 

[umbarsc]

However, WHY is the objective goal of UU to play Pokemon not seen in OU? There is absolutely no basis for that argument except for the name of the tier.

I know, let's ban OU Pokermon from ubers, because the whole point of playing ubers is to use Pokemon too powerful for OU!

 

[Chou Toshio]

^Because the main point of having multiple tiers is to be able to use more pokemon.

If you don't care about using non-OU pokemon, just play OU. :/

I'm surprised someone as smart as you umbarsc is asking that question.

 

[merubin]

Really? I can't use ubers in the OU. I can't use OU pokemon in UU. Unless I'm missing something that seems like a pretty easy to grasp explanation.

You said, and I quote, "pokemon x is too powerful for the tier below it," which is specifically what Obi was referring to. The reason you can't use OU in UU, as has been stated several times, including Obi's rather exhaustive first post, is NOT because x OU Pokemon is necessarily too powerful to use in UU, but rather that it is used too often to use in UU. See the example being bandied about over the last few pages: Tentacruel. Tentacruel is absolutely not too powerful for UU, but is currently OU. Tentacruel is not too powerful for the tier below it, but it still cannot be used there.

 

[umbarsc]

I guess I can't think of a better way to phrase the goal of UU, so point taken I suppose.

 

[Chou Toshio]

However, WHY is the objective goal of UU to play Pokemon not seen in OU? There is absolutely no basis for that argument except for the name of the tier.

I know, let's ban OU Pokermon from ubers, because the whole point of playing ubers is to use Pokemon too powerful for OU!

But that isn't the purpose of Ubers-- the purpose of ubers is just to be a ban list for OU.

This might seem odd considering the overall purpose of tiering to play with more pokemon, but the fact is we put the effort into trying to create and regulate the balanced tiers, not the faux-tiers (Ubers, BL, etc.) which only really serve as ban lists for the balanced tiers (though people can play them as real tiers if they want, but they are unbalanced).

Furthermore, we never stop pokemon below from being used above, because we assume that said "lower" pokemon probably won't see much use above anyway. Though in the case of a pokemon like blissey who has high useage in Ubers this might not be true, but the fact is that Ubers is still a Faux-tier, and thus not one of the tiers we are regulating.

 

[obi]

However, WHY is the objective goal of UU to play Pokemon not seen in OU? There is absolutely no basis for that argument except for the name of the tier.

I was just explaining how the tiers are currently constructed and why. If you have a better proposal, I'm listening.

 

[umbarsc]

I was just explaining how the tiers are currently constructed and why. If you have a better proposal, I'm listening.

"I guess I can't think of a better way to phrase the goal of UU, so point taken I suppose."

However, I still do not see why the primary goal of UU is to differentiate itself from OU. Tentacruel is hardly even that great in UU, and it would help to balance the ridiculously powerful Rain Dance teams. If I were to make a proposal, it would be created more subjectively. But I'm not, so

"I guess I can't think of a better way to phrase the goal of UU, so point taken I suppose."

 

[Blln]

One thing that I find kind of strange is that the Uber metagame actually sees play, considering it is such an unbalanced teir. If this is the case, then why isn't there a BL metagame. Obviously some people do not really care if a metagame is balanced if it means they can use the specific pokemon they want to use. People always come right in with a "BL is not a metagame" as soon as they see a BL RMT, but really why is it any different than the Uber metagame? If Ubers is going to exist as an official competitive metagame then I think Borderline should too.

 

[TheMaskedNitpicker]

The practice of automatically banning the most popular Pokemon in the standard game from UU play sounds good in theory, but may not be desirable in reality.

It really comes down to what UU players want. If they play UU to get away from having to face Pokémon that are overused in standard play, then the current tier makes perfect sense. If, however, they play UU so that they aren't forced to use these Pokémon in order to have a good shot at winning, then banning Pokémon based on usage makes no sense whatsoever.

I'm curious how many people fall into each camp.

 

[merubin]

Mewtwo v. Kyogre more fun than playing with the Regis. Also, and perhaps more importantly, many BLs already see use in the standard metagame, just not enough to propel them to OU. No Ubers see use in the standard metagame.

 

[SwinubToupée]

One thing that I find kind of strange is that the Uber metagame actually sees play, considering it is such an unbalanced teir. If this is the case, then why isn't there a BL metagame.

What we call the Uber metagame is the default metagame that ships with every copy of Pokémon. Grab any critters you want and go battle. The pokémon banned from standard play just happen to be some of the best choices for that kind of no-holds-barred environment.

Every metagame beyond that default setting exists as an effort to have more fun with all the lovely pokémon that have no business chumming about with the likes of Arceus. Carving out the OU metagame results in the Uber tier but not in the Uber metagame--the Uber metagame was there to begin with! The same cannot be said for UU and BL. Creating the UU list requires the BL list but the goal is not the creation of a BL metagame and no BL metagame is inherent to the system.

I agree with the sentiment that the terminology used with regard to tiers and metagames is less helpful than it could be. One only imagines how much less confusion there would be if "Uber tier" and "BL tier" were simply "Banned OU" and "Banned UU". The suggested top/middle/bottom phrasing isn't a poor idea either.