no its not a definite counter because garchomp can still run fire fang so your risking getting 2koed by Fire Fang, or if it does have Extreme Speed. Talking about extreme speed and garchomp is really getting off topic though.
-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Garchomp and this Metagame
- Thread starter Caelum
- Start date
- Status
What if they forgo Extremespeed in favor of both Stone Edge and Crunch? OOPS
Is there some reason you can't fucking read and apparently keep transposing the names of Tyranitar and Blissey whenever the term "ADV" comes your way?
The problem with Lucario is that in a speed-dominated environment, Lucario needs Extremespeed to be effective. Scarfers are everywhere, and Lucario doesn't have the defenses to withstand more than 2 hits from things faster than it. Extremespeed allows Lucario to overcome this with a 80 BP priority move. No other Pokemon can really boast about having that, apart from the useless Arcanine. Extremespeed is also more powerful than Bullet Punch, b/c with STAB factored in, BP only has 60 Base Power. While Lucario is powerful, it's hampered by the fact that you already know 3 of its moves: Swords Dance, Extremespeed, and Close Combat. Once the 4th move is known, then Lucario can be countered by something like Gliscor, Celebi, or even Gengar. Back on topic, we already know what Garchomp will do, but it really has no 100% counter unless a Bulky steel is switched in while it Outrages. Garchomp is simply too devastating, because it can rip through teams unlike that of Lucario, Tyranitar, Salamence, or Gengar because they have either 100% counters or close to it. The same cannot be said for garchomp, b/c of Yache Berry eliminating its major weakness, along with the unique speed tier that outspeeds many of the powerful offensive Pokemon used frequently.
Mr. E, you keep saying "The same stuff always counters Garchomp", but you haven't actually told us what does counter Garchomp. Cresselia? It'll die before it kills YacheChomp. Skarmory? Fire Fang easily wipes the floor with it. Faster stuff with Ice moves that can OHKO even with Yache? That's pretty much only Weavile, and it can't possibly hope to switch in safely.
You're throwing a lot of bullshit at jrrrr...r and you're not backing it up. Lucario is always countered by something, even if the element of surprise lets it kill something else first. Salamence is always countered by something, even if the element of surprise lets it kill something else first. Garchomp has no surprise but is still never countered by anything; The best any single Pokemon can do is put a dent in it and set it up for being killed later. That is not "countering" by any definition.
You're throwing a lot of bullshit at jrrrr...r and you're not backing it up. Lucario is always countered by something, even if the element of surprise lets it kill something else first. Salamence is always countered by something, even if the element of surprise lets it kill something else first. Garchomp has no surprise but is still never countered by anything; The best any single Pokemon can do is put a dent in it and set it up for being killed later. That is not "countering" by any definition.
Lucario without Extremespeed is useless. Try again. Extremespeed is the main reason to use SD Lucario over any other sweeper. It can't be a late game cleaner without a priority move, can it?
Close Combat. Swords Dance. Extremespeed/Bullet Punch. Pick the last move. You can't possibly beat both Salamence and Celebi with one move (yeah, HP Ice will hit Celebi sooooo hard). And Salamence runs 280 speed now. This isn't ADV, outrunning Lucario is more important than outrunning Heracross.
The more I read of Mr. E's arguements, the more I think he's just trying to troll.
Close Combat. Swords Dance. Extremespeed/Bullet Punch. Pick the last move. You can't possibly beat both Salamence and Celebi with one move (yeah, HP Ice will hit Celebi sooooo hard). And Salamence runs 280 speed now. This isn't ADV, outrunning Lucario is more important than outrunning Heracross.
The more I read of Mr. E's arguements, the more I think he's just trying to troll.
I don't know if that was sarcasm, but of course - I never said it wasn't. I was only clarifying what that one guy said because I felt it important for him to be heard correctly.
Then you lose to everything that's faster than you...
If that is the one thing you picked out of my post to criticize or attempt to argue against, not only am I happy that I presented an argument that you couldn't even begin to attack, but you also clearly missed the point. Every Lucario set is countered by something. Garchomp's standard set is countered by nothing. That is quite the "functional difference" as you put it.
Because the only "ADV" pokemon you've claimed to be even close to potentially overpowering are Blissey and Tyranitar? I'm not even sure how your immature attempt at an insult is even relevant to anything I said. I can read, you are the one ignoring everything that actually happens in the game for your false papermon and inane comparisons to other pokemon. It doesn't matter what I transpose onto "ADV" because "ADV" is not relevant to anything in this topic. If you want to discuss "ADV" or any pokemon in "ADV", there is a separate forum for that and I suggest you take your comments there.
Non boosted Fire Fang is a 3HKO, you can easily Whirwind him away and Roost for coming back later. Even if he already have a Swords Dance, Skarmory still wins as long as you don't switch into a Fire Fang (it does around 50% and 60% to max HP, 390 def Skarmory if Chomp is Jolly, an easy 2HKO). Yeah, if Skarmory can't Roost after this, he won't be coming back.
Of course, Skarmory is far from being a "100% counter", but is a very safe choice to switch in. He's not easily taken down as you say.
Garchomp is overpowered, and this can't be changed, but you guys are giving him too much credit.
Seriously?
The way YacheChomp works is that you Swords Dance while your opponent switches to their Chomp counter, survive their first attack (with the help of Yache if it's an Ice attack), and then hit them a second time for the KO before they can finish Garchomp off. So unless Garchomp is switching in to Skarmory, Garchomp will pretty much always have his SD and thus do a minimum of 48.5% to Skarmory. With Rocks, this is an easy 2HKO. Of course, Garchomp could always use a non-hindering nature and Fire Blast, which will always 2HKO Skarmory, but that only matters if the Chomp user doesn't have rocks up (ie. it will very rarely matter).
Putting all that aside for a moment, let's assume that Chomp is facing Skarmory and doesn't have a Swords Dance. How, exactly, does Skarmory "win" this confrontation? Its only available option is to Whirlwind Garchomp away. Last time I checked, Whirlwind doesn't actually do any damage, which means Garchomp is alive and well and ready to try again later. Should Skarmory decide to attack, the best it can muster is 37.15% with Brave Bird, which is a 3HKO and damages Skarmory in the process, making him easier for Garchomp to kill.
In no way does Skarmory "beat" Garchomp. He can force him out, but that hardly matters when you're not doing any damage to him in the meantime. On the other side of the coin, Garchomp will be inflicting serious damage onto Skarmory every time Skarmory comes in to phaze. The only one getting worn down here is Skarmory, not Garchomp. Please explain to me how that is at all a "very safe choice to switch in".
Your lack of understanding of his arguments has absolutely nothing to do with potential trolling. Even jrrrrrrr and IggyBot, who disagreed with him and argued against him, have not claimed he was trolling. If you've already got a low credibility, you're just lowering it by calling people with reputations to be trolls.
Why are people always demanding worst-case-scenario when countering Garchomp? We're playing the real game, and it won't always be worst-case scenario. How is it going to be hard to counter if it revenge-kills Lucario, taking an ExtremeSpeed for 70%? How will it be getting th etime to Swords Dance when you're firing attacks at it? The simple solution is to make sure none of your Pokemon allow Garchomp to set up on it.
As for Garchomp counters, support Cresselia makes a good counter. It all comes down to a prediction game, if you Outrage while she Reflects you will lose your Yache Berry, and possibly get KOed depending on Outrage's length. If you Swords Dance while she Ice Beams, you KO her but will be guaranteed to get revenge-killed by the next Pokemon if you have Outrage. If you don't, she will KO you as you fail to OHKO her with +4 Dragon Claw.
Uxie works similarly, but instead of Ice Beam can win with a combination of Reflect + Yawn.
Walrein can avoid a OHKO from Swords Dance Outrage and can Yawn Garchomp, which will either put Garchomp to sleep (essentially rendering it useless), or if it uses Dragon Claw/Earthquake, will usually force Garchomp out. Walrein will also be dealing massive damage with Blizzard, breaking its Yache and KOing it if it's taken a little damage (like if it switched in on a CBtar's Stone Edge)
Choice Band Donphan, EVed to survive SD Outrage, can break its Yache Berry. With a Yache Berry, Ice Shard will do, at minimum, 46% damage after Yache is broken. With Yache Berry, it will only be doing 23% damage minimum, but that's a net total of 70% damage, assuming it rolls minimum damage each time (that's not actually what 23 + 46 equals, but...). Not a 100% counter, but with a little previous damage it will KO Garchomp most likely.
Bronzong will take everything well except for Swords Danced Fire Fang. In the meantime, it can set up Reflect and use Gyro Ball/HP Ice. Garchomp will usually switch out of the threat of Explosion anyways. Skarmory is in a similar boat, being able to take everything well except Fire Fang and forcing it out with Whirlwind, and Roosting the damage off later. If Garchomp has taken damage, it can also KO it with a Brave Bird.
Tangrowth is only beaten by Fire Blast and can Sleep Powder Garchomp. HP Ice will break its Yache and can KO it while it's asleep.
And what, I may ask, is wrong with using a bulky Pokemon that breaks Garchomp's Yache Berry that sacrifices itself? Garchomp is left crippled and open to revenge-kill. Yes, that means that if it predicts correctly (that turn of Swords Dancing can cost it a lot if the opponent doesn't switch), it will almost guarantee a kill every game. But doesn't Dugtrio? Doesn't Metagross? Doesn't Azelf? Doesn't Tyranitar?
I don't know how someone can say "Lucario is uncounterable" when me, Iggybot and Jrrrrr have presented multiple counters for any viable SDluke set. Then Mr. E comes along and says, "what if it doesn't have extreme speed?"
Removing extreme speed from SDluke's set is basically defeating most, if not all, of it's purpose: to Close Combat tough walls, killing them in one hit, and Extreme speed any faster threats. Without Extreme Speed, it's no longer a good late game cleaner, and it also gets killed by Dugtrio, Weavile, Infernape and the like.
I was pretty sure that a "troll" is someone who posts controversial, terrible arguments to get the members of a forum angry. If that's not what Mr. E is doing right now, please, present me with another word to describe it.
I completely and 100% understand his arguments. I simply don't think they are valid. Here, allow me to sum them up for you:
-"Plenty of pokemon can put out Garchomp level damage"
I showed him that Garchomp hits harder than Porygon-Z.
-"Durka durrrr, Hyper Beam? Tri Attack is more comparable to Dragon Claw, the weaker of Garchomp's Dragon options without the nasty drawback."
Jrrrrrr reminded him on Hyper Beam's nasty drawback.
-"Garchomp's Speed is, quite frankly, overrated. Lucario and PZ typically take up +Speed natures to outspeed the 299 crowd, who rarely take up a +Speed nature themselves in this metagame."
I pointed out how crappy Jolly Luke is, and then Jrrrrr points out how important Garchomp's speed is.
-"Why is Garchomp any more overpowered than our oft-mentioned Lucario?"
For the next few pages, several individuals refute his terrible Lucario > Garchomp arguement.
-"Your SD-humping and baseless insults against my supposed lack of comprehension isn't going to make me start playing again."
Basically says Swords Dance is overrated, and then reveals he doesn't even play the game right now. And we're supposed to take this guy seriously?
And personally, Umbarsc, I don't think you are in any position to attack my credibility, I've read some "interesting" posts from you here and there. So unless you're some kind of perfect Smogon God, don't complain about me. I know what I'm talking about.
Removing extreme speed from SDluke's set is basically defeating most, if not all, of it's purpose: to Close Combat tough walls, killing them in one hit, and Extreme speed any faster threats. Without Extreme Speed, it's no longer a good late game cleaner, and it also gets killed by Dugtrio, Weavile, Infernape and the like.
I was pretty sure that a "troll" is someone who posts controversial, terrible arguments to get the members of a forum angry. If that's not what Mr. E is doing right now, please, present me with another word to describe it.
I completely and 100% understand his arguments. I simply don't think they are valid. Here, allow me to sum them up for you:
-"Plenty of pokemon can put out Garchomp level damage"
I showed him that Garchomp hits harder than Porygon-Z.
-"Durka durrrr, Hyper Beam? Tri Attack is more comparable to Dragon Claw, the weaker of Garchomp's Dragon options without the nasty drawback."
Jrrrrrr reminded him on Hyper Beam's nasty drawback.
-"Garchomp's Speed is, quite frankly, overrated. Lucario and PZ typically take up +Speed natures to outspeed the 299 crowd, who rarely take up a +Speed nature themselves in this metagame."
I pointed out how crappy Jolly Luke is, and then Jrrrrr points out how important Garchomp's speed is.
-"Why is Garchomp any more overpowered than our oft-mentioned Lucario?"
For the next few pages, several individuals refute his terrible Lucario > Garchomp arguement.
-"Your SD-humping and baseless insults against my supposed lack of comprehension isn't going to make me start playing again."
Basically says Swords Dance is overrated, and then reveals he doesn't even play the game right now. And we're supposed to take this guy seriously?
And personally, Umbarsc, I don't think you are in any position to attack my credibility, I've read some "interesting" posts from you here and there. So unless you're some kind of perfect Smogon God, don't complain about me. I know what I'm talking about.
Only read page 16. Random notes:
Salamence+Celebi will not beat Lucario 100% of the time. Hell it will rarely win considering a +2 Stone Edge will 2HKO Celebi easily, and a +1 will still do in Salamence.
A Lucario without Extremespeed is basically a Heracross.
Reflect Cresselia does a pretty good job of countering the 'standard' Garchomp.
Nonboosted Fire Fang is more like a 4HKO to Skarmory.
Salamence+Celebi will not beat Lucario 100% of the time. Hell it will rarely win considering a +2 Stone Edge will 2HKO Celebi easily, and a +1 will still do in Salamence.
A Lucario without Extremespeed is basically a Heracross.
Reflect Cresselia does a pretty good job of countering the 'standard' Garchomp.
Nonboosted Fire Fang is more like a 4HKO to Skarmory.
His arguments have made sense to me.
If Hyper Beam has a nasty drawback, what are you going to say about Outrage's nasty drawback? Assuming they both OHKO the target (which isn't hard), either way the Outrage or Hyper Beam user will almost always be killed.
He was not saying that Lucario was superior to Garchomp, he said that their power level was comparable.
Swords Dance has been overrated in this thread. "Overrated" doesn't mean "bad", it means "worse than it has been hyped as". If something is overrated and has been hyped a ton, it still can be good. I agree that Swords Dance is a potent move, but it's not anywhere near as unstoppable as people have been claimed for the simple fact that anything faster will be able to revenge-kill it unless it packs a priority move (I'm looking at you Lucario).
If Hyper Beam has a nasty drawback, what are you going to say about Outrage's nasty drawback? Assuming they both OHKO the target (which isn't hard), either way the Outrage or Hyper Beam user will almost always be killed.
He was not saying that Lucario was superior to Garchomp, he said that their power level was comparable.
Swords Dance has been overrated in this thread. "Overrated" doesn't mean "bad", it means "worse than it has been hyped as". If something is overrated and has been hyped a ton, it still can be good. I agree that Swords Dance is a potent move, but it's not anywhere near as unstoppable as people have been claimed for the simple fact that anything faster will be able to revenge-kill it unless it packs a priority move (I'm looking at you Lucario).
Lucario is uncounterable. There is no single pokemon in the game that can counter all of its sets.
Hmm...Garchomp counter?
Well...I like Cloyster, personally.
I mean, as long as it's not swords danced or something.
500 defense with none of your moves super-effective, unless you use Draco-Meteor when he switches in.
Ice Shard FTW?
Also...Mamoswine and Weavile both have enough attack with Ice Shard.
If you know it's not scarfed, like if it swords dances or something, Just use Deoxys-E.
I dunno. It's not much of a problem for me.
Well...I like Cloyster, personally.
I mean, as long as it's not swords danced or something.
500 defense with none of your moves super-effective, unless you use Draco-Meteor when he switches in.
Ice Shard FTW?
Also...Mamoswine and Weavile both have enough attack with Ice Shard.
If you know it's not scarfed, like if it swords dances or something, Just use Deoxys-E.
I dunno. It's not much of a problem for me.
But there are pokemon that can counter any set Lucario runs. You don't have to counter every set, you just have to counter that particular set. Are you saying that Scizor isn't a Celebi counter because rare ones use HP Fire? By your definition, every pokemon is uncounterable.
By definition, any counter has to switch into Garchomp. If Cloyster switches into Garchomp as it SDs, it is OHKOd most of the time by Outrage if Stealth Rock is up (which it is almost 100% likely to be). ANY residual damage means Cloyster loses every time. It's close, but it doesn't work.
No Ice Shard in the game can OHKO YacheChomp, including Mamoswine and Weavile. Weavile needs both a Choice Band and Ice Punch to OHKO Yache Chomp, and it is the only pokemon in OU that is both faster than Garchomp and can OHKO it without a Choice Scarf. Deoxys-Speed can not OHKO YacheChomp. Please do a damage calculation or any semblance of research before posting claims like this. Someone might actually believe you.
Just to jump into the whole Skarmory thing, good work pointing it out Glen. Yes, Skarmory forces Garchomp out more than it does kill it directly, but that doesn't mean Skarmory isn't a viable option for taking care of Garchomp. It never really killed Curselax directly in GSC either, rather just prevented it from doing any damage until you could deal with it later. It's pretty much the same idea dealing with Garchomp now, have Skarmory push it out of the way until you can figure out the best way to really put it out of commission. It's a strong option for any team using Skarmory. And even if Skarmory is 2HKOed by SD Fire Fang, it is not 2HKOed by SD Outrage -- what if it switches in at that time?
I would never advocate non-ES Lucario. However, it is a pretty damn surprising option that can sometimes work. As for Salamence countering Lucario, don't forget that it is very easily worn down by SR + SS; Intimidate is what annoys Lucario more than anything.
Why is it that Garchomp is always assumed to be full health when it switches in? Why is Yache Berry always such a point of contention such like "Starmie can't kill it, it'll survive with Yache!" and "Yache helps protect it from Cresselia!" I thought the entire point of the Yache Berry was to unexpectedly survive random Ice Beams everywhere to set that Swords Dance up and sweep! Typically this means that, by the time Garchomp gets its setup and starts attacking, it's already at 30% and lost its item. Rarely is it going to be near-full health with both SD up and Yache intact.
Weavile can switch in safely if it knows you're Swords Dancing first. :P Mindgames, son.
You know, Garchomp uses Yache Berry to guarantee its setup, stuff its Ice-based counters, protect from weaker Ice attacks while trying to sweep. So... What about using some of those other berries to counter Garchomp? Garchomp would be in for a surprise if he switched into a Shuca Berry Tyranitar and got beat where it thought it was forcing a switch. Comedy Haban Berry Dragons work as well but that's not realistic. Maybe people just need to think outside the box a bit.
And yep, at least one counter does exist. Max Def/HP Regirock beats Garchomp. It can, surprisingly, survive a Swords Danced EQ from Garchomp. (It survives about 75% of the time even with SR, and can guarantee survive using Leftovers or Shuca Berry.) It can then Counter him back for the kill. No Counter? Garchomp acts tricky and puts up a second SD? No problem, Regirock can always Explode if it wants to ensure Garchomp can't pull a kill out of its ass or the Shuca Berry option even prevents the OHKO at +6. Garchomp's death is virtually assured and Regirock sometimes even survives the ordeal. We have a winner here, folks.
Other potential "counters" include... Max Def/HP Weezing can sometimes survive an SD Outrage, Pain Split back most of its health (while doing a good ~45% to Garchomp), and survive a second one. It could also simply Explode, Destiny Bond (which ignores accuracy), or WoW, the latter having dubious accuracy but all three of which guarantee killing or crippling Garchomp. Scarf Abomasnow is never going to eat a Fire Fang switching in and should be able to power through Yache with 100% Blizzard. A little too specialized to really count, max Def/HP Specs Regice also counters Garchomp. What about just using Reflect more judiciously? Jirachi isn't afraid of Garchomp if it switches into a Reflect, let alone what would happen if you put Reflect on something like Cresselia or Bronzong. Toxic Spikes, as always, still cripples Garchomp's ability to sweep.
Of course, the notion of a "counter" on paper is mostly moot anyway unless we're talking trapping attacks or traits. But you asked for it. Lucario is a lot more counterable on paper than it is in practice and, to bring back an old point here, is virtually guaranteed at least one kill every match. Yet, somehow, nearly 50 pokémon manage to thrive in OU (with many more seeing occasional usage) rather than being dominated by the same 5-10 pokémon that "guarantee" kills every battle.
I never said anything about Tyranitar in Advance, you dumbshit. And yes, it's absolutely relevant to the situation. One of the primary reasons many people use to justify that Garchomp is broken is that it's used a damn lot. In Advance, Blissey was also excessively overused but was not banned. How has D/P changed such that heavy use of a single pokémon is overpowered? "D/P isn't ADV!" is not an answer to this question, it fails to explain how D/P changed such that usage is now a valid indicator of "overpoweredness" when it never used to be.
But you guys are right, I'm the one throwing ad hominem attacks everywhere and not actually arguing the point.
MOJONBO RULES HERE
I would never advocate non-ES Lucario. However, it is a pretty damn surprising option that can sometimes work. As for Salamence countering Lucario, don't forget that it is very easily worn down by SR + SS; Intimidate is what annoys Lucario more than anything.
Why is it that Garchomp is always assumed to be full health when it switches in? Why is Yache Berry always such a point of contention such like "Starmie can't kill it, it'll survive with Yache!" and "Yache helps protect it from Cresselia!" I thought the entire point of the Yache Berry was to unexpectedly survive random Ice Beams everywhere to set that Swords Dance up and sweep! Typically this means that, by the time Garchomp gets its setup and starts attacking, it's already at 30% and lost its item. Rarely is it going to be near-full health with both SD up and Yache intact.
Weavile can switch in safely if it knows you're Swords Dancing first. :P Mindgames, son.
You know, Garchomp uses Yache Berry to guarantee its setup, stuff its Ice-based counters, protect from weaker Ice attacks while trying to sweep. So... What about using some of those other berries to counter Garchomp? Garchomp would be in for a surprise if he switched into a Shuca Berry Tyranitar and got beat where it thought it was forcing a switch. Comedy Haban Berry Dragons work as well but that's not realistic. Maybe people just need to think outside the box a bit.
And yep, at least one counter does exist. Max Def/HP Regirock beats Garchomp. It can, surprisingly, survive a Swords Danced EQ from Garchomp. (It survives about 75% of the time even with SR, and can guarantee survive using Leftovers or Shuca Berry.) It can then Counter him back for the kill. No Counter? Garchomp acts tricky and puts up a second SD? No problem, Regirock can always Explode if it wants to ensure Garchomp can't pull a kill out of its ass or the Shuca Berry option even prevents the OHKO at +6. Garchomp's death is virtually assured and Regirock sometimes even survives the ordeal. We have a winner here, folks.
Other potential "counters" include... Max Def/HP Weezing can sometimes survive an SD Outrage, Pain Split back most of its health (while doing a good ~45% to Garchomp), and survive a second one. It could also simply Explode, Destiny Bond (which ignores accuracy), or WoW, the latter having dubious accuracy but all three of which guarantee killing or crippling Garchomp. Scarf Abomasnow is never going to eat a Fire Fang switching in and should be able to power through Yache with 100% Blizzard. A little too specialized to really count, max Def/HP Specs Regice also counters Garchomp. What about just using Reflect more judiciously? Jirachi isn't afraid of Garchomp if it switches into a Reflect, let alone what would happen if you put Reflect on something like Cresselia or Bronzong. Toxic Spikes, as always, still cripples Garchomp's ability to sweep.
Of course, the notion of a "counter" on paper is mostly moot anyway unless we're talking trapping attacks or traits. But you asked for it. Lucario is a lot more counterable on paper than it is in practice and, to bring back an old point here, is virtually guaranteed at least one kill every match. Yet, somehow, nearly 50 pokémon manage to thrive in OU (with many more seeing occasional usage) rather than being dominated by the same 5-10 pokémon that "guarantee" kills every battle.
I never said anything about Tyranitar in Advance, you dumbshit. And yes, it's absolutely relevant to the situation. One of the primary reasons many people use to justify that Garchomp is broken is that it's used a damn lot. In Advance, Blissey was also excessively overused but was not banned. How has D/P changed such that heavy use of a single pokémon is overpowered? "D/P isn't ADV!" is not an answer to this question, it fails to explain how D/P changed such that usage is now a valid indicator of "overpoweredness" when it never used to be.
But you guys are right, I'm the one throwing ad hominem attacks everywhere and not actually arguing the point.
MOJONBO RULES HERE
You said to do some calculations, so I did...
Actually, Gar-Counter Cloyster will take (according to marriland, anyway) 153-180 damage from a SD'd Outrage, so it'll survive unless they get a crit, even factoring in Stealth Rocks as long as Cloyster has max health. If he then Icicle Spears chomp, the first should break the berry, and the rest hit home for true. If it doesn't for some reason, Ice Shard can kill it next turn.
It even breaks through substitutes.
Right off of Smogon's Cloyster page...
Cloyster? Cool beans, pun intended. :P A 120-power Avalanche would also outright OHKO and only take one one moveslot, but Spear/Shard is not susceptible to "SD again" prediction (even if rare) and works on all types of Garchomp too. Cloyster can also learn Toxic Spikes.
Lapras is bulky enough to take a hit, I'd assume, and also has Ice Shard.
Lapras is bulky enough to take a hit, I'd assume, and also has Ice Shard.
Has a 92% chance to 3HKO Calm 252/252 Blissey - Twave/Flamethrower/Softboiled/<FILLER>
- Status