When all the NFEs get banned, so we can test which ones other than Porygon 2, Chansey, Snover and Hippopotas, will be going to BL, we'll have Kadabra and Haunter there, plus some other, less useful, special Pokemon. It just depends if we're ever going to take any action. We've been discussing the unbanning of BLs and NFEs to UU so we can have our proper BL tier for ages, but we're still sitting here doing nothing about this problem, which is not getting any better.
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DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)
- Thread starter Phuquoph
- Start date
When all the NFEs get banned, so we can test which ones other than Porygon 2, Chansey, Snover and Hippopotas, will be going to BL, we'll have Kadabra and Haunter there, plus some other, less useful, special Pokemon. It just depends if we're ever going to take any action. We've been discussing the unbanning of BLs and NFEs to UU so we can have our proper BL tier for ages, but we're still sitting here doing nothing about this problem, which is not getting any better.
Well, promoting discussion regarding that is relatively useless the NFE issue get's resolved.
Probably the same reason why people think something like Bronzor, or some other NFE of an OU should be banned. "Don't turn UU to OU-lite." I disagree with that whole argument.
I agree with Aldaron completely(And X-Act's post in PR), that we should have all BL's and NFE's in the same ladder, and work from there of deciding which pokemon to ban to BL.
I don't know really. It's always just seemed so obvious to me. It was autobanned in GSC and RSE too. If Blissey didn't exist, it'd be in the 20 most used ubers and the top 10 OUs. If Garchomp didn't exist, Gabite would be UU. If any NFE will actually make UU even vaguely 'OU-lite', it'll be Chansey. Chansey will be a better special wall in UU than Blissey is in OU (this is judging by the fact that Chansey has nearly as good defensive capabilities as Blissey, whilst in UU, special Pokemon have lower offensive capabilities than the OU Pokemon). Most people just think it's so obvious that it'll be dominating in UU, we don't even need to try it, especially when we're banning a bunch of other, less useful Pokemon from UU without trying them either. But if we unban everything, we should unban Chansey too, because that's what we should do, even if the outcome seems obvious to some of us.
I don't mean that. Even if people agree that all NFEs should be allowed they still say that Chansey should be an auto-ban along with Hippotas, Snover and most of the time Kadabra and Haunter. Why is that?
If BLs get unbanned, people won't ask for Kadabra, Haunter, etc. to be banned because the UU Pokemon will definately be strong enough to cope with them. If we leave UU how it is, and unban the NFEs, people will ask for an autoban because, Chansey mainly, seems a bit strong for it.
However, I'm all for the total unbanning of of all BL and NFE Pokemon.
However, I'm all for the total unbanning of of all BL and NFE Pokemon.
Aldaron said:
Why should we unban NFE? That has absolutely nothing to do with balancing a tier, it's a "philosophical" issue (lol philosophy in Pokemon).
Unbanning all BL Pokemon would be rather chaotic. In theory, that's the best way to determine a metagame, but in practice it could work out a whole lot differently. I do agree that creating a tier list before the game came out was a bad idea, but it's really too late to do anything about it now IMO. I think we should just stick with what we've got and try to improve it, even if it is "inherently flawed".
Just want to add that I am also in agreement with Aldaron and rkatzam in that we need a playable tier in which all BLs and NFEs are unbanned.
The way UU is structured has been a complete joke from the start, and now the whole system is beginning to turn into a farce.
EDIT: umbarsc, I really hate the 'its too late' argument. It is never too late. To ignore the problem based on that logic would be an embarrassment to Smogon as a premier competitive battling site.
The way UU is structured has been a complete joke from the start, and now the whole system is beginning to turn into a farce.
EDIT: umbarsc, I really hate the 'its too late' argument. It is never too late. To ignore the problem based on that logic would be an embarrassment to Smogon as a premier competitive battling site.
I agree with unbanning almost all of the BLs. However, I think we should move the Pokes that are simply too overpowered for even a mixed BL-UU up to OU. Slowbro, Rhyperior and such come to mind. Take Rampardos and Rhyperior for example. The only thing Rampardos has over Rhyperior is 35 Attack, while Rhyperior's list of advantages goes on and on. Marowak is also too good for UU. A mere Trick Room and I can sweep teams in OU - in fact, I just did with my new OU team to test out BLs in OU. Ursaring is basically the same. Throw up Reflect/Light Screen with Light Clay, put a Toxic Orb with Quick Feet and 252/252 on him, use Swords Dance once and it's gg right there. Facade OHKO's everything that doesn't resist it while Close Combat and Fire Punch handles the rest. This is so stupidly simple to execute yet it has Uber-level power. The only way to take this out is either a combination of priority moves or outstall it for Toxic's damage to kick in. By comparison, stuff like Flygon, Rampardos etc. will not likely be overpowering. Steelix walls Rampardos, as it will strike before it in Trick Room and, unless it's boosted with multiple Swords Dances, it can also survive an EQ. Mach Punch destroys it, and the list only goes on. Basically, Rampardos is OHKO'd by anything it doesn't take out. It's not as simple as merely putting a Choice Band on it, as with some others (*cough* Hitmonlee *cough*).
It won't be too late if we take action immediately. Obi proposed moving BLs into UU, then banning them properly ages ago, and most people agreed with him, but it's still not happening. If we leave it another year, then it may be too late.
Sigh, are people really going to be against NFE's on the BL ladder? Seriously? If you can prove that their presence is enough to have a distinct negative effect on the UU metagame that now compromises those BL's who are lesser used OU pokemon I'm willing to hear it. But how will you know for sure though? Without testing them? You won't.
Regarding the ladder, does anyone know exactly how long it would take to set up?
Regarding the ladder, does anyone know exactly how long it would take to set up?
Keep making non spam posts to have it implemented, and the people who design policy (badge holders, moderators, programmers) will eventually emphasize it.
I and a few other badge holders are emphasizing it, but it hasn't been a main priority.
I'll see if I can at least make a Policy Review thread about it (though I would need to promote some sort of debate, and I don't what sot of debate a "make a BL ladder" would promote lol)
I guess I could talk about the issue of having two ladders for essentially the same topic.
I and a few other badge holders are emphasizing it, but it hasn't been a main priority.
I'll see if I can at least make a Policy Review thread about it (though I would need to promote some sort of debate, and I don't what sot of debate a "make a BL ladder" would promote lol)
I guess I could talk about the issue of having two ladders for essentially the same topic.
I am not against unbanning all BL's for a testing period, though you have to admit that, if it happens, it's going to be pretty damn chaotic for at least a few weeks.
This is something I've been wondering for a while now though... on what premises would we decide when this 'new' UU tier is balanced? Is 'balanced' going to mean when the maximum number of Pokemon are able to be used competitively?
This is something I've been wondering for a while now though... on what premises would we decide when this 'new' UU tier is balanced? Is 'balanced' going to mean when the maximum number of Pokemon are able to be used competitively?
I believe that we should make a tier with all the current NFE's, BL, and UU Pokemon.
Then, after observation, we would move out skewed Pokemon such as Rhyperior and such into a limbo, or OU tier.
Basically, what mostly everyone is saying.
Then, after observation, we would move out skewed Pokemon such as Rhyperior and such into a limbo, or OU tier.
Basically, what mostly everyone is saying.
Hmm, I didn't notice this before. Regarding Hippotas and Snover I think the question as to whether or not they're allowed is to be up to the players. Do they want permanent weather or not. It is a fact the weather will have an effect on the metagame and I feel that it should be talked about. UU will have a definition of pokemon not commonly seen in OU but what about strategies that simply aren't viable due to perm weather? Do the people want those strategies to become viable?
Just to make it clear, I was actually being quite sarcastic in my last comment. I was always against the dropping down of BL pokes into the UU tier, which I think was balanced before.
..BUT. I also support going with ideas all the way. If BLs have already started dropping down, I don't see why we can't save everyone the precious time and just unban them all at once. I realized that with every drop of a BL pokemon, there will be new suggetions to drop another one.. eventually all BL will be dropped down. So why wait? I can't wait for the UU tier to be balanced again, and there's no going back now. Let's just test it for a while and get it over with so we can see what is overpowered and what is not.
As for NFE, I'm in agreement with those who say if it's a pre evo of an OU poke, it shouldn't be in UU.
Well, I can understand those who didn't want NFE's in this UU. I don't however understand those who don't want NFE's in the UU that is made up of those who are in BL. Unless of course they are for banning Flygon and Blaziken because they are generally outclassed by Garchomp and Flygon. Please don't bring up thier "niches" as an argument because the NFE's also have those.
By doing this you will not and i repeat not be saving any time in the matter. I'm sure everyone remembers the case with Deoxys-S and Wobbuffet which took months on months to decide. There are currently 55 BL pokemon, and after implementing this proposal then we well need to repeat the process of what happened with Wobbuffet and Deoxys-S (unless someone can think of something better) for each of these 55 pokemon on an individual basis, you really think this will "save time"?
Why does it matter if there is a new suggestion. If the pokemon suggested is found to be able to compete in UU then it will be allowed. There is no reason why we would simply include every BL pokemon suggested just because they were "suggested". Every pokemon in BL will not be moved down, thats obvious.
Also Aldaron and I also mentioned a compromise earlier between the two ladders in starting up another ladder with which this idea can be tested and then the two ladders will be compared and we will work from there in trying to develop UU. This way everyone will or rather, should be happy.