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DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)
- Thread starter Phuquoph
- Start date
Staying in UU:
SCYTHER: It is 4x weak to rock, so stealth rock kills. Weak the both Electric/Ice/Fire isn't a very pleasing thing. Although strong offensive wise, it is quite difficult to keep alive, and any status can destroy this thing: a Toxic poison is probably the best status that it can even have. Focus Sash may help sometimes, but Stealth Rock kills it. Plus, there are countless rock/steel or whatevers that can SR, and tanks such as Steelix, Aggron, Bastiodon, and such all destroy it.
To BL:
Ninetales: Hypnosis + Free Nasty Plot = 1 sleeper + facing something with 162 S.Atk. With reasonable speed for UU tier, it is just too strong. Flamethrower covers a lot, especially the tanking Steel type, and Rock/Water just get weared down by Energy Ball after 1 Nasty Plot. If by any chance Ninetales have HP Ice, not even Altaria can wall this thing. This thing overcentralizes this tier for one of the few counters: Altaria (dangerous to HP Ice), Hypno (dangerous to Dark Pulse), Mantine (still dangerous to HP Electric) and Grumpig (can be put to sleep and Dark Pulsed).
SCYTHER: It is 4x weak to rock, so stealth rock kills. Weak the both Electric/Ice/Fire isn't a very pleasing thing. Although strong offensive wise, it is quite difficult to keep alive, and any status can destroy this thing: a Toxic poison is probably the best status that it can even have. Focus Sash may help sometimes, but Stealth Rock kills it. Plus, there are countless rock/steel or whatevers that can SR, and tanks such as Steelix, Aggron, Bastiodon, and such all destroy it.
To BL:
Ninetales: Hypnosis + Free Nasty Plot = 1 sleeper + facing something with 162 S.Atk. With reasonable speed for UU tier, it is just too strong. Flamethrower covers a lot, especially the tanking Steel type, and Rock/Water just get weared down by Energy Ball after 1 Nasty Plot. If by any chance Ninetales have HP Ice, not even Altaria can wall this thing. This thing overcentralizes this tier for one of the few counters: Altaria (dangerous to HP Ice), Hypno (dangerous to Dark Pulse), Mantine (still dangerous to HP Electric) and Grumpig (can be put to sleep and Dark Pulsed).
Uhh, wait till the testing period starts before you jump to conclusion.
Plus, since when does Ninetales run Dark Pulse? If Ninetales were to run Dark Pulse it would lose to any water Pokemon which are ridiculously common in UU.
Edit: Basically, your argument is equivalent to. "Celebi isn't a Swampert counter because Celebi has to fear Hidden Power Bug".
Ninetails is not overpowered at all. Hypno-plot Ninetails gets two attacking moves, one of which is a fire move, leaving either Energy Ball (most common) or Dark Pulse (Which lets every water poke wall the eff out of it), or random HP (which only counters random specific threats). Plus Ninetails doesn't take a physical hit well at all, so scarfers kill it.
Anyways, when is something going to get done, because the UU is busted in half. Please? Dump BL and make it something that doesn't suck?
Anyways, when is something going to get done, because the UU is busted in half. Please? Dump BL and make it something that doesn't suck?
Ninetales has four moveslots. If three are reserved for the standard Hypnosis, NP, Fire attack, that leaves one to cover a multitude of sins ...
Your counters list is also a little lacking as Noctowl, and opposing Fire types (particularly Flareon) can cause 'tales problems.
With Energy Ball, it can have difficulties with the counters you listed, and didn't. Whilst all (bar Hypno and Noctowl) can be put to sleep, Hypnosis can be dealt with by sacrificing something else and then switching to the counter.
With Dark Pulse, the psychic walls become easier to handle, but bulky water types can pose more of a problem.
With HP: Ice, Altaria is less of a threat, but again Water types and Grumpig become more difficult.
I'm afraid I'm not entertaining HP: Electric, it's just so incredibly niche, and I don'r recall seeing it used once in who knows how many UU battles ...
Who in the world runs HP on Ninetales? She already has a moveslot problem as it is. Fire + Ice are so easily walled by other waters and fires so that shouldn't be a worry at all. Dark Pulse allows her to fight Grumpig and Hypno, but water pokemon own her now.
Ninetales has problems dealing damage against her fellow fire pokemon. Rapidash and Torkoal, for example, can beat her.
Ninetales has problems dealing damage against her fellow fire pokemon. Rapidash and Torkoal, for example, can beat her.
Max HP and Sp. Def. Noctowl takes no more than 40-45% from a NPed Flamethrower and can Whirlwind or Hypnosis it away. Max Attack Life Orb Mach Punch from Hitmonchan does ~70%, Scarfmonlee beats it, Scarf Primeape beats it, Swellow kills it and Mantine and Altaria wall it up solid. I used to be pushing for it's move to BL, but, after using one myself, I found there are a lot of ways to shut it down. Wow, it's weird to be back talking about individual pokes again...
Let's not forget that Ninetales itself is an amazing counter. Flash Fire means that it gets to come in on Flamethrower at no risk to itself, then sleep it (If we're assuming that it got a free NP from something getting sleeped). Ninetales also boasts an impressive 100 base Special Defense to resist whatever that fourth moveslot holds.
Really, Ninetales is like Swords Dance Lucario. Sure, it's nuts strong, but depending on what it has, it gets specific counters. My suggested Hidden Power would be HP Rock, seeing as how it covers other Fire-types, Mantine, and Altaria all in one moveslot, but in that case, Grumpig/Hypno and most waters become a problem. If it packs Energy Ball, Fires, Altaria, and G/H are a problem. Dark Pulse once again leaves it open to Altaria and bulky waters.
I've never really had trouble with this thing. Maybe it's just how my team is built, but it's not physically sturdy, it's not overwhelmingly fast, and no matter how you slice it, 81 base Special Attack isn't exactly all that stunning.
Really, Ninetales is like Swords Dance Lucario. Sure, it's nuts strong, but depending on what it has, it gets specific counters. My suggested Hidden Power would be HP Rock, seeing as how it covers other Fire-types, Mantine, and Altaria all in one moveslot, but in that case, Grumpig/Hypno and most waters become a problem. If it packs Energy Ball, Fires, Altaria, and G/H are a problem. Dark Pulse once again leaves it open to Altaria and bulky waters.
I've never really had trouble with this thing. Maybe it's just how my team is built, but it's not physically sturdy, it's not overwhelmingly fast, and no matter how you slice it, 81 base Special Attack isn't exactly all that stunning.
I was just gonna mention that. Why is Hypnosis a must when you can just Nasty Plot (and it has many chances to Nasty Plot) and you could have 3 more moves for great coverage? Not only does it make it harder to counter, you'll need to sacrifice something if you wanna get your revenge killer unharmed. Also pokemon expecting Hypnosis could be attacked instead. Grumpig and Hypno are probably the best counters, but it's not hard to get rid of them when they have a weakness to Pursuit. I wouldn't say Ninetales is BL worthy, maybe because I haven't run into this set much, so it's all theorymon at this point.
Could Thick Fat Miltank also be called a "counter"? Although it speed ties with Ninetales (and will likely lose since few invest in speed), it does resist STAB, and +2 Timid Energy Ball from Ninetales does 39.59% - 46.70% to 252/0 Careful Miltank (yes, some will go lol, but note that it will do even less if you invest in SpD, which isn't a terribly bad idea considering all the Fighting type Pokemon to nullify that good physical defense and more useful ability in terms of special attackers). No Ninetales will ever carry HP Fighting, especially since Altaria, Mantine and Grumpig lol at it. If Ninetales runs WoW, it not only loses a lot of coverage, but you have Heal Bell to boot. In return, obviously it has access to the crippling Body Slam, which nullifies the speed anyways, and the also-seen Earthquake.
It's just a hunch, so. =/
It's just a hunch, so. =/
Scrappy is really quite useless on a wall, and Kangaskhan does the whole Scrappy thing a hell of a lot better, in my opinion. Thick Fat is a pretty awesome ability for the most part, and it lets Miltank actually be useful every once in a while.
I didn't take that into account (I did say it was a hunch), but if said Miltank is running Careful and 252/252, +2 LO Energy Ball does 38.07% - 44.92%.
That wouldn't be that much of a waste, but unfortunately, an uninvested EQ only 2KOs and Body Slam 3KOs (although paralysis will end Ninetales' "reign of terror").
That wouldn't be that much of a waste, but unfortunately, an uninvested EQ only 2KOs and Body Slam 3KOs (although paralysis will end Ninetales' "reign of terror").
IMO Miltank gets more use of being a physical wall then a special one. Being of it's higher defence stat and acess to curse. Steelix is weak to fighting but it's the #1 used physical wall, so why should Miltank go special just because of fighting types?
If we're still seriously pondering the viability of Ninetales counters in UU, you can add Aerodactyl to the list. Easily outruns, resists Fire, neutral to Energy Ball, and KOs back with Stone Edge, even Earthquake if holding Expert Belt/Life Orb.
Personally though, I think there are far more viable BL candidates than Ninetales of all things in this current metagame.
Personally though, I think there are far more viable BL candidates than Ninetales of all things in this current metagame.
^I agree.
But that was just a hunch of mine, don't take anything too seriously.... >_>
It's a possibility. It's an option. Miltank still has that good physical defense even if you do invest in SpD (and would be better for the Curser IMO), and it might be a bit more tankish since she won't die or be significantly crippled by a random Focus Blast or Specs STAB or HP Fighting or something like that (and you have a 50-50 good switch-in to Specs Glaceon, for those of you who complain about it). Although typing does play a big role in that respect, Steelix being so popular due to useful STAB resistances from Swellow, Absol, etc. Being weak to Fighting actually controls its walling capabilites, if anything (although people will bitch about the Weezing/Steelix combo, but then again you sacrifice 1/3 of your team purely dedicated to non-autohealing physical walls).
But that was just a hunch of mine, don't take anything too seriously.... >_>
Teehee, that threw it out the window. 42.64% - 50.25%, 3KO factoring in Leftovers. Although Miltank can stall out Fire Blast's PP with Milk Drink (it may have to sacrifice a turn for Heal Bell if it gets burned, but iirc, the Curser doesn't carry it), while Ninetales will eventually die of LO recoil. But let's abandon the topic.
With that out of the way, I agree still that Ninetales should remain UU (at least for now if there's still opposition), agreeing particularily with Lemmiwinks' statement.
With that out of the way, I agree still that Ninetales should remain UU (at least for now if there's still opposition), agreeing particularily with Lemmiwinks' statement.
Move Steelix up not down
I played UU for a while and the biggest problem I ran into with both of my teams was Steelix. The common steelix set of stealth rock, roar, gyro ball, and stone edge or earthquake or explosion basically makes steelix a sort UU skarmory. It's best counters are special attacking fire and water Pokemon but fire Pokemon are worn down very quickly by stealth rock and a lot of water Pokemon on a normal team are going to be bulky and not sweepers meaning they probably will not have the power to take down a steelix with one good surf.
He's not unbeatable but he really requires that a team have at least one good steelix counter. With so many UU Pokemon being UU simply because stealth rock ruined their glory, a Pokemon like Steelix who sets it up so easily really hurts the game.
On a seperate note the glory of the UU tier should be that cool Pokemon (Glalie and Flareon for example) that drown in the fast paced competition should have a chance to shine. Steelix is locking up UU teams and the successful UU teams really look very similar. I think UU should be the tier where every team looks a little different, not the same.
Steelix can easily compete in OU and BL. He should be moved back up.
I played UU for a while and the biggest problem I ran into with both of my teams was Steelix. The common steelix set of stealth rock, roar, gyro ball, and stone edge or earthquake or explosion basically makes steelix a sort UU skarmory. It's best counters are special attacking fire and water Pokemon but fire Pokemon are worn down very quickly by stealth rock and a lot of water Pokemon on a normal team are going to be bulky and not sweepers meaning they probably will not have the power to take down a steelix with one good surf.
He's not unbeatable but he really requires that a team have at least one good steelix counter. With so many UU Pokemon being UU simply because stealth rock ruined their glory, a Pokemon like Steelix who sets it up so easily really hurts the game.
On a seperate note the glory of the UU tier should be that cool Pokemon (Glalie and Flareon for example) that drown in the fast paced competition should have a chance to shine. Steelix is locking up UU teams and the successful UU teams really look very similar. I think UU should be the tier where every team looks a little different, not the same.
Steelix can easily compete in OU and BL. He should be moved back up.
Ya but...
True that, but I wasn't just talking about NU Pokemon. There are many other examples such as sunny day teams that can't show their face in OU because of the ridiculous number of tyranitars and hippowdons. I'm just saying there are so many Pokemon and cool UU teams that are absolutely devestated by Steelix. If Steelix was bumped up, they would work so much better.
True that, but I wasn't just talking about NU Pokemon. There are many other examples such as sunny day teams that can't show their face in OU because of the ridiculous number of tyranitars and hippowdons. I'm just saying there are so many Pokemon and cool UU teams that are absolutely devestated by Steelix. If Steelix was bumped up, they would work so much better.
But Steelix will be nearly useless afterwards, with a good chunk of its health knocked off and with no good form of recovery. Bulky waters are the perfect counter for Steelix, taking little damage from it, Blastoise in particular spinning away whatever it does on the field.
No, this is true of BL (well, not particularily anymore as several have been moved down to UU), not UU. In fact, many UU staples are either resistant or neutral to SR, throwing that argument out the window. If that were true, Moltres, Charizard, and Yanmega (should usage ever fall off for it to become BL) would be UU. And for the rest not in the top 75%, it's mostly for metagame reasons, not because of Stealth Rock. There are also other good SR set-ups like Claydol that no one complains about.
IMHO, SR is the most overrated move in the game. Is it perhaps me, learning to be cautious against it and using Pokemon who need to avoid it like the plague and playing accordingly? Is it because that even though I always pack a spinner (ok, which in itself proves that it is admittedly overcentralizing), that spinner preforms multiple functions for my team so it doesn't look like I'm wasting a slot just for it? Do people hate it perhaps because it hurts every single Pokemon (besides Clefable), regardless of type? I've honestly had more problems against stall teams running Toxic Spikes than Stealth Rock.
I'm not saying it's a bad move at all, but my point is that people need to stop using Stealth Rock as a measure of power/effectiveness. I hate to use something that seems irrelevant, but does anyone remember the Ho-oh for OU discussion that took place around December and how the main argument was a 4x SR weakness? That's the best example I can think of when it really gets out of hand. Of all the ubers that will be tested for OU in the future, Ho-oh is noticably absent.
AoK, I agree entirely. I use Articuno on my UU team and it is one of the most effective walls I've ever used. I use Rapid Spin on Hitmonchan, and Stealth Rock really is not a problem for me. Other than Articuno, I don't use any big SR weak pokes, but when I do, it's easy enough to just pack some spin support.
The same applies for Steelix. Sure he is a pain in the @$$, but he is hella weak to any kind of special attack and, in the end, not that much of a threat.
The same applies for Steelix. Sure he is a pain in the @$$, but he is hella weak to any kind of special attack and, in the end, not that much of a threat.
