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DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)
- Thread starter Phuquoph
- Start date
Why not predict the Sucker Punch and set up DS in their face? Or status? Obviously you won't attack Toxicroak.
I've never used Xatu, but will be used on my next BL team. Right now, I'm looking at its excellent movepool and decent Speed/Special Attack, and it seems like a viable choice, and can be very effective if used correctly.
A lot of things can be very effective when used correctly. Purugly is one of the best leads I've ever run, for example, and the set I run is something unique to it that Persian can't run. And in BL, where the 115 group runs everywhere outside of just Persian.
same here. Xatu defies all logic... it's stats scream "i'm crappy!" but it's so amazing.
That "poor" defensive typing resists fighting 4x, resists psychic, grass, immune to ground, and even when roosting he still resists fighting.
T-croak was never a problem, they always sucker punched and got thunderwaved. Then I just set up on them.
So where do we stand?
Are the BL's (Aero, Weezing, Vena, *cough Clefable *cough, Tank and the like) being moved back up?
Redoing the BL tier all together?
Or are we going to run with this Metagame for a while?
Personally this Metagame doesn't bother me in the slightest. Though I am generally against over-centralization, the UU tier has/is/ was just that. With the exception that you can still use gimmick sets and succeed. True as it may be that this logic applies to the OU tier it comes to a certian degree where I cannot even consider using my Surskit wall in OU because of this reason and that reason. Well, I'm just kind of curious to know where we are at...
Are the BL's (Aero, Weezing, Vena, *cough Clefable *cough, Tank and the like) being moved back up?
Redoing the BL tier all together?
Or are we going to run with this Metagame for a while?
Personally this Metagame doesn't bother me in the slightest. Though I am generally against over-centralization, the UU tier has/is/ was just that. With the exception that you can still use gimmick sets and succeed. True as it may be that this logic applies to the OU tier it comes to a certian degree where I cannot even consider using my Surskit wall in OU because of this reason and that reason. Well, I'm just kind of curious to know where we are at...
One month of data may not seem like much, but, for people who are on the UU ladder with any regularity, that's also a whole month of facing these new UUs and getting an idea of how dangerous they are. To put it off because we have "only" a month's worth of data seems like a bit of a stall tactic to me...
^Agreed. I don't think we want the likes of Aerodactyl and Venusaur to remain allowed in UU for another month.
Rather than "allowed" I would say "kicked out to BL," because obviously being "allowed" into UU is better.
Anyway I would agree that Venusaur is quite a beast. It just stops so many things. Even super effective ice beams and fire attacks, when unSTAB, just don't phase it at all between leech seed and leftovers unhampered by sand. Even if it gets slept by something faster it can almost always afford to stay in, substitute as it wakes up, and then put the enemy to sleep.
I had a UU battle on Wifi recently (haha, yeah those do exist), and I won, even though it was 3 enemy pokemon at full health v. Venusaur.
I'm hoping this was satire.
Now, as we are talking about deciding about the latest "tested" BLs and when it will be decided on if they are true BLs shouldn't be something done at the end of this month. I want UU to be "fixed" as soon as possible just like most of you but I think it would probably best for the tier to just wait until all the BLs are dropped and go from there. Metagame dynamics could change once other current BLs are dropped down and the current "tested" BLs wouldn't be as much of an issue. It would be just a mess again and should be avoided. I want the UU Tier to be properly created as quickly and efficiently as possible but I don't think any of us should undermine the process of creating this UU tier for the sake of time.
Yeah, I agree with you completely. And who knows? We could end up with only half a dozen BLs and a good UU tier after the process.
And, just to say, Venusaur has been the star of my team this month. It's an awesome lead for starters.
I'm curious as to why you might think Venusaur is BL, when everything you just stated can be done just as well by Meganium.
Yeah Venusaur is pretty amazing and that's pretty amazing, 3 full health pokes vs. Venusaur and you still managed to win nice:)
EDIT: As for Ninetales, I don't know what other peoples' opinions are on it but my opinion is that it should stay in UU because I can usually defeat them with ease.
Oh sorry, well I usually kill it with usually my Rotom or Swellow because I figured since Ninetales usually carry Grass Knot, I absorb the sleep with some other pokemon then while it Nasty Plots I send out Swellow and use Facade after being burned, I haven't fought the focus sash version yet and my Swellow seems to outspeed Ninetales every time so far:)
aside from Sleep Powder (which I mentioned in a kind of hard-to-notice way), I'd say that Grass/Poison is just a far better typing. With the number of powerful flying/levitate pokemon around, resistance to ground just does not bring as much to the team as resistance to fighting (avoid death by CC). Venusaur is a near 100% counter to all the fighting types of UU, including Toxicroak (who I have seen running poison jab more and more often recently), in addition to fulfilling its roles as a grass type. Sludge Bomb also provides reliable and powerful STAB and with 100 base sp.ATK, I can also rely on Venu to put out some real damage, making it useful on an offensive or defensive team.
Picking up Toxic Spikes is useful too. Normally I'd say Toxic Spikes in UU is not that good, but I have seen a few enemy Drapion or Venomoth try to pull it off. While there are certainly a lot of poison types to use, I'd say Venusaur is the easiest general switch in to pick these off the field. Though I personally still wouldn't try to set them up.
Perhaps though what puts Venusaur over say Vileplume though, would be its speed. Even without touching speed at all, Venusaur can outrun the majority of opposing walls. Getting in the first Sleep Powder, or even leech seed/substitute against slow walls with their own set ups is critical.
In summation:
Over Meganium:
+Poison Typing (read: Fight Resist + no poison weak)
+STAB Sludge Bomb
+100 Sp.ATK, meaning Venu has decent sweeping capacity
+Picks up Toxic Spikes
+Sleep Powder
-Some Physical Bulk
-No Aromatherapy (probably wouldn't find room for it on venu anyway)
-No Reflect (I wouldn't find room for it on Venu anyway)
Over Vileplume
++SPEED
+Overall Better Defenses
+Light Screen (though again, whether you'd find room . . .)
-Aromatherapy
Anyway, these are just things I see as being really great about venusaur. In retrospect, whether out-classing meg/vileplume makes it BL or not, I'm not sure and as you said they are very comparable. I don't really want to say, because it's not really obvious whether or not he over powers other pokemon.
Let me say it like this: As long as Venusaur is in the tier, there is no reason why I would not run it on just about any team I would make. I'd say the same for Garchomp in OU though, and it's free to argue him either way as well.
The others I would not say this about. Aerodactyle has its own specific uses, and does not outclass Swellow, hitting a lot weaker and having no priority moves (though better speed and coverage). Weezing obviously cannot function very well on an offensive team (which I'm partial to), and anyone would have their concerns about running a wall 4x weak to rock (articuno). I've seen like 2 articunos this whole month, tops.
edit: edited the part about the screens
Venusaur learns Light Screen too, so Meganium's only real advantage over Venusaur would be Reflect and Aromatherapy (and resistance to Earthquake if you need one).
Even so, I don't think Venusaur is too powerful for UU. It does, however, reduce the number of usable Pokemon since it mostly outclasses other Grass types unless you want Aromatherapy. However, I believe we should ban Pokemon that are too powerful for UU and not just Pokemon that outclass others. I don't know, that's what I believe right now. The statistics for this month will certainly be interesting.
Even so, I don't think Venusaur is too powerful for UU. It does, however, reduce the number of usable Pokemon since it mostly outclasses other Grass types unless you want Aromatherapy. However, I believe we should ban Pokemon that are too powerful for UU and not just Pokemon that outclass others. I don't know, that's what I believe right now. The statistics for this month will certainly be interesting.