Venusaur gets Light Screen as an Egg move, so it is not completely without the screens. Also a plus point over Vileplume.
EDIT: Never mind, Mizuno beat me to it.
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DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)
- Thread starter Phuquoph
- Start date
Venusaur gets Light Screen as an Egg move, so it is not completely without the screens. Also a plus point over Vileplume.
EDIT: Never mind, Mizuno beat me to it.
@Mizuno: Yeah, I can understand what you mean. Which is why I said I'm not sure if Venusaur shoudl be BL. Defining what "over-powering" is though, is difficult.
So again I guess the way I'd say it is: As long as Venusaur is here, I myself would never make a Venusaur-less team.
So again I guess the way I'd say it is: As long as Venusaur is here, I myself would never make a Venusaur-less team.
Venusaur also gets Ligh--
Oh wait, beaten.
Also, you put "-No Screens", but you also put "-No Reflect".
I also don't see how the advantages it has over other Grassers makes it broken. Sure, fighting resistance is useful, and absorbing Toxic Spikes is nice, and being fast comes in handy, but Vileplume and Meganium are nowhere near broken so I don't see how those advantages makes Venusaur broken.
Oh wait, beaten.
Also, you put "-No Screens", but you also put "-No Reflect".
I also don't see how the advantages it has over other Grassers makes it broken. Sure, fighting resistance is useful, and absorbing Toxic Spikes is nice, and being fast comes in handy, but Vileplume and Meganium are nowhere near broken so I don't see how those advantages makes Venusaur broken.
Venusaur is a tough one to call. It outclasses the other bulky grasses and Victreebel completely, as mentioned, but it really isn't "broken". Flying, Psychic and Ice weaknesses mean it can be easy to take down and, while it is fast for a defensive poke, it is still somewhat slow compared to other UUs. Personally, I'm leaning towards moving him up, but I can see some extensive debates around this one...
I'm just wondering why Aerodactyl is UU despite being ranked #49 in OU usage (and probably rising now that Deoxys is suspect) whereas Tentacruel is banned from UU?
Isn't this a little hypocritical or are we abandoning the concept that usage in OU effects a Pokemon's status in UU?
Sorry if it's been covered already.
Isn't this a little hypocritical or are we abandoning the concept that usage in OU effects a Pokemon's status in UU?
Sorry if it's been covered already.
My personal opinion is that a Pokemon should be able to compete in UU if it is not too much for the standard UU Pokemon to handle. Sure Venesaur can be used in OU and BL but as long as he's not overkill in UU what's the problem?
Aerodactyl should be debated heavily though. Just because he runs in to trouble in OU doesn't mean he should get bumped down to UU. A lot or people consider him too fast and strong. I saw a guy who nicknamed his Aero "Ha Ha I'm UU?!".
Aerodactyl should be debated heavily though. Just because he runs in to trouble in OU doesn't mean he should get bumped down to UU. A lot or people consider him too fast and strong. I saw a guy who nicknamed his Aero "Ha Ha I'm UU?!".
No, Aerodactyl simply never actually managed to reached OU. IIRC the cutoff point was at #46 Roserade which means Aerodactyl was always BL. Tentacruel is #33 in OU usage which means hes still quite a ways from coming back to UU.
If you stop to think about it, if this were true then all BLs would be moved down simply for the fact that all of them "run into trouble" in OU.
Needless to say but its obvious we'll see how each Pokemon moved down has really affected the game with the August usage statistics.
Kylecat, stop stating the obvious. The purpose of moving aero down was NOT because "it did badly in OU." We've never moved a BL down for that purpose (duh).
Aero was moved down because we wanted to see if was overpowering or not, as its speed is only 1 tier above swellow (who is pretty widely accepted now), and while has better coverage, his attack power is not that impressive. Especially with Steelix around.
Anyway, in regards to Aero, I hardly would say he's "over-whelming," in terms of power, but pushing up the speed of UU 1 more level definitely has an impact on the metagame. It's actually a lot like the effect Deoxys S has on OU.
While there are quite a few notable UU pokes who can shrug off Aero's offensive, his absolute speed and coverage pretty much force everyone to stick to pokemon that can aren't simply screwed by him-- things that can take a hit or two-- ie scyther is dead. Not that he had many fans but >.>
Fighting types are up, "bulky sweepers" are up (Venusaur, Claydol, Clefable, Blastoise, etc.). Of course Aero around means "suicide leads" have made their way to UU as well. On the other hand, Aero isn't so much faster than swellow that the choice scarf users changed that much I believe. The UU metagame was already tilting more to CC fighting types and said "bulky sweepers" even before we moved the most recent pokes down, but I think Aero's presence definitely reinforces that tilt.
Aero was moved down because we wanted to see if was overpowering or not, as its speed is only 1 tier above swellow (who is pretty widely accepted now), and while has better coverage, his attack power is not that impressive. Especially with Steelix around.
Anyway, in regards to Aero, I hardly would say he's "over-whelming," in terms of power, but pushing up the speed of UU 1 more level definitely has an impact on the metagame. It's actually a lot like the effect Deoxys S has on OU.
While there are quite a few notable UU pokes who can shrug off Aero's offensive, his absolute speed and coverage pretty much force everyone to stick to pokemon that can aren't simply screwed by him-- things that can take a hit or two-- ie scyther is dead. Not that he had many fans but >.>
Fighting types are up, "bulky sweepers" are up (Venusaur, Claydol, Clefable, Blastoise, etc.). Of course Aero around means "suicide leads" have made their way to UU as well. On the other hand, Aero isn't so much faster than swellow that the choice scarf users changed that much I believe. The UU metagame was already tilting more to CC fighting types and said "bulky sweepers" even before we moved the most recent pokes down, but I think Aero's presence definitely reinforces that tilt.
Claydol, Steelix, Gastrodon/Quagsire, Blastoise, Meganium, Weezing. Most UU walls beat it 1 on 1, the problem is that it beats almost all UU sweepers and so leaves you with nothing but walls on your team. It is the ultimate revenge killer and late game, if your walls are hurting or KOed, it will win, barring something fast with a Scarf.
I was stating the obvious but not that point... I never said he did badly I said he ran into trouble implying I was wondering why he wasn't still BL instead of UU.
I think if you add one Pokemon at a time to UU the game will change to fit it's counter no matter what Pokemon it is (well barring the ubers of course). It's like nature: things adapt. I do think if this "expirementation" continues the fine lines between UU and OU played will be blurred until the gameplay almost seems no different. I think the whole point stated by Buckles is pretty revealing. Aerodactyl isn't unstoppable but he has made a significant change in UU play.
I think if you add one Pokemon at a time to UU the game will change to fit it's counter no matter what Pokemon it is (well barring the ubers of course). It's like nature: things adapt. I do think if this "expirementation" continues the fine lines between UU and OU played will be blurred until the gameplay almost seems no different. I think the whole point stated by Buckles is pretty revealing. Aerodactyl isn't unstoppable but he has made a significant change in UU play.
Lol...at exactly what point in your post was this "your point"? All you said was
I don't see how that implies anything to do with all Bls as you were pretty much directly talking about Aerodactyl.
A pokemon running into trouble in OU doesn't exactly mean it has to be BL or even UU.
Anyway Kylecat, the point is that whether a BL is let down to UU or not has nothing to do with OU.
If a UU pokemon is used too much in OU it might end up becoming OU.
But, no matter how little a BL is used in OU, it will not come down to UU.
The fact we let aerodactyle down has nothing to do with it "running into trouble" in OU. That's all. Now stop arguing with MR about it because it's distracting discussion.
@Shelcario: In addition to the ones Buckles mentioned, there's Venusaur, Poliwrath, Sandslash, probably some other walls. Almost all the fighting types in UU can switch into Stone Edge/Rock Slide and then hurt it really bad with CS or priority moves. Not to mention that SR hurts it too each time it comes in. Essentially Aero is managable, but it does turn it into "bulky sweeper" battle.
I mean, I haven't seen a persion or jumpluff in ages. O,o
If a UU pokemon is used too much in OU it might end up becoming OU.
But, no matter how little a BL is used in OU, it will not come down to UU.
The fact we let aerodactyle down has nothing to do with it "running into trouble" in OU. That's all. Now stop arguing with MR about it because it's distracting discussion.
@Shelcario: In addition to the ones Buckles mentioned, there's Venusaur, Poliwrath, Sandslash, probably some other walls. Almost all the fighting types in UU can switch into Stone Edge/Rock Slide and then hurt it really bad with CS or priority moves. Not to mention that SR hurts it too each time it comes in. Essentially Aero is managable, but it does turn it into "bulky sweeper" battle.
I mean, I haven't seen a persion or jumpluff in ages. O,o
Well since there is little discussion at the moment . I would, instead of requesting that all NFE's to moved into the UU tier, ask to see peoples views on Golbat. Lets look at his positives and negatives, shall we?
+'s
- Base Stats - 75/80/70/90/65/75
+'s
- Base Stats - 75/80/70/90/65/75
- Move Pool - Brave Bird, Curse, Haze, Hypnosis, Mean Look, Nasty Plot, Pluck, Pursuit, Roost, Screech, Taunt, U-turn, and Whirlwind
- Resistances - x.25 Grass, x.25 Fight, x.0 Ground, x.5 Poison, and x.25 Bug
-'s
- Base Stats - 75/80/70/90/65/75
- Weaknesses - Electric, Ice, Rock
- Ability - Inner Focus
To me it certainly looks like a solid Pokemon that can fulfill both offensive and defensive roles while not completely taking over other Poke's positions. If anything I could certainly see this taking over for Weezing to some degree.
Watcha think?
Why Golbat? If we're going to allow Golbat into UU then we have to let in everything else as there is absolutely nothing at all that distinguishes Golbat from Crobat afaik.
I also fail to see why anyone would use this in Weezing's role.
I also fail to see why anyone would use this in Weezing's role.
Yeah, it can't fill in for Weezing when it has craptastic defenses.
And bad stats overall.
And bad stats overall.
Heh, and I curiously just posted a set last night in the Creative Movesets thread to abuse Xatu's resistances.
Well, if this is the case then there should be no reason for it not to be UU. However, I personally don't mind the 75/70/75 Defenses.
Well, what is Crobat's #1 asset? His speed of course. Golbat needs Max speed + a positive nature to reach a Crobat with no speed investment. That seems like a significant difference to me. I think that could qualifiy as a distinguished charecteristic.
... Bold print. Golbat can do no evil to the UU metagame just as several other NFE's.
Please note that I said "to some degree" which is pretty vague. I personally would try to use him as a Special Wall and Physical Wall, something that Crobat will have a hard time find doing in OU/ BL not to mention he probably has other things to be doing.
"If we let Golbat in we would have to let every other NFE in"
Not true, Golbat is something that most can agree that his presence wouldn't be particularly overwhelming to UU. I would like to think he would be a NFE that wouldn't need testing unlike something such as Chansey.
Shouldn't NFEs be done first seeing that their fully evolved counterparts have been placed in a tier. UU NFE's are allowed. BL's NFE's should at be considered before messing with the entire BL tier.
Point being Golbat for UU!
This sums up my position on the subject rather nicely.
Trust me, you don't want to go down that road:
Yanmega's greatest asset is its massive special attack alongside Speed Boost and great STABs, allowing it to sweep unprepared teams easily. But Yanma requires max EVs and + nature to reach Yanmega with no investment. This means that Yanma will not be sweeping easily any time soon, which should qualify it for UU.
Tangrowth has enormous physical tanking potential with its high HP and Defense, and also the ability to hit back hard with STAB Power Whip off 100 base Attack. But even with max HP and Attack Tangela still falls short of the stats of a Tangrowth with no investment, and therefore it struggles to fulfill the same role anywhere near as well. This is a distinguishable characteristic that means it should be allowed in UU.
I could use the same logic for many other cases. Do you see how subjective and problematic that is? Particularly when you consider that they aren't even advantages, but rather crippling disadvantages.
Besides, I'm with Metric and ODDish in that there are far more pressing concerns with UU at the moment.
Agreeing with ODDish. I mean for instance, why would we care about golbat if Crobat ends up getting moved down? Actually, if Crobat moved down golbat would automatically be included as well.
However, I would be adainst Crobat coming down. Actually in retrospect it's kind of strange we have Aerodactyle but not Crobat. Personally I think neither really belongs in the tier though, as their speed changes the whole nature of the game (read: comes to resemble OU a lot more). Frail speedsters might not seem like a real threat when they can be easily walled by walls that exist, but one has to admit that each time speed is increased, the whole roster of useable sweeper pokemon changes. The whole speed battle is getting a bit out of hand in my opinion.
Come to think of it, why the hell was aerodactyle moved down when we already said no to Floatzel? Aero has the same ATK score in addition to the ridiculous spee. Not to mention that while Floatzel has to rely on the Return (woo, normal) and the low-basepower Waterfall (which, while having lots of nuetrality has few super effectives), Aerodactyle gets STAB Stone Edge or Rocks Slide (for flinch) and Earthquake which is an overall more useful attack combination in my opinion.
In fact, the only real assets Floatzel has over aerodactyle are encore, baton pass and Swift Swim. When you consider we already have Kabutops (who is arguably a better rain dance sweeper anyway), and that Aero gets great utility moves as well in the SR/Taunt combo in addition to Roost, I'd say that banning floatzel while allowing aerodactyle seems . . . odd.
However, I would be adainst Crobat coming down. Actually in retrospect it's kind of strange we have Aerodactyle but not Crobat. Personally I think neither really belongs in the tier though, as their speed changes the whole nature of the game (read: comes to resemble OU a lot more). Frail speedsters might not seem like a real threat when they can be easily walled by walls that exist, but one has to admit that each time speed is increased, the whole roster of useable sweeper pokemon changes. The whole speed battle is getting a bit out of hand in my opinion.
Come to think of it, why the hell was aerodactyle moved down when we already said no to Floatzel? Aero has the same ATK score in addition to the ridiculous spee. Not to mention that while Floatzel has to rely on the Return (woo, normal) and the low-basepower Waterfall (which, while having lots of nuetrality has few super effectives), Aerodactyle gets STAB Stone Edge or Rocks Slide (for flinch) and Earthquake which is an overall more useful attack combination in my opinion.
In fact, the only real assets Floatzel has over aerodactyle are encore, baton pass and Swift Swim. When you consider we already have Kabutops (who is arguably a better rain dance sweeper anyway), and that Aero gets great utility moves as well in the SR/Taunt combo in addition to Roost, I'd say that banning floatzel while allowing aerodactyle seems . . . odd.