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Super Smash Bros. Brawl: Character and Tier Discussion
- Thread starter Firestorm
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It is when you Foxtrot to Draconic Reverse (exclusive to Yoshi). DT is basically Yoshi's wavedash. To draconic Reverse go to 1/4 mode in training mode and hit jump, jump, attack (to cancel your jump). But you can move while doing it so you can do the Draconic reverse.
AT stands for advanced tactic. It has nothing to do with the DT lol.
AT stands for advanced tactic. It has nothing to do with the DT lol.
So they'd just play with severely weakened pokémon instead, during which time they WOULD have trouble killing or even causing as much damage. In-tournament? Yes, I damn well would wait two minutes (less than that since they lose stamina for every attack they make) to essentially guarantee victory. You underestimate what people will do to win, and an eight-minute match isn't that long anyway. It's the same reason "loop" stages are all banned, as a faster character such as Pit or Fox could easily shoot somebody once and automatically win just by running away from the opponent the rest of the time. Obviously, complete evasion would probably not be possible on a neutral/CP stage but Charizard and Ivysaur aren't exactly great at cornering people either.
Wario's tourney success sure doesn't seem all that swayed by his susceptibility to grab releases and he's even worse off in that regard with his extremely short range and lack of projectiles. (Including but not limited to being infinite grab-released by Yoshi and getting USmashed out of one by Dedede.) DK is infinite DThrowed by Dedede. Yet, these characters are still enjoying plenty of success in tournaments. Who's to say Ness and Lucas can't enjoy the same, Lucas especially? (While I'm not going to explain why I think he's a better character overall, he avoids more grab release follow-ups than Ness does.)
While for the sake of Brawl I sure hope Yoshi can be a soft counter to MK, I don't think so. :P Yes, he can chain grab [release] a few characters, but it doesn't change the fact he has the worst standing grab in the game. It's like combining the slow speed of Samus' grab with the short range of Lucas' grab, and that still says nothing of his terrible roll/shield because he has to wait for the egg shell to break before he can retaliate out-of-shield. (Hey, at least Samus has the longest grab in the game.) Yoshi is otherwise a decent character but he's very bad at performing some of Brawl's most basic defensive techniques.
PKMN TRNR can't force anyone to approach, that's the problem. Razor Leaf is relatively slow to spam with mediocre range (i.e. easily avoided or clanked) and both Charizard and Ivysaur have a hard time just chasing down an opponent actively avoiding them or very cautiously spacing. It's not even patient spacing, ala non-projectile characters with range like Marth, but the opponent can gain an advantage by playing flat out keep-away. What choice does PKMN TRNR have but to give chase, putting himself at a disadvantage? He can't wait them out, as eventually his pokémon get fatigued and become much weaker.
Most feel he should have been borderline middle tier, mostly due to the fact that Sonic is underrated in certain fields of play (aka, Sonic doesn't get raped by all projectiles).
Hmm if only I was being sarcastic in that statement about competitive writing... oh wait!
I wouldn't say "no one"... I've played Ness in (in person) tournaments myself. (I actually got Ness points on Ankoku's character rankings list.)
Also, it shouldn't be banned. It's just a chaingrab. Ness v. Marth is like 70 - 30 Marth wins, it's far from unwinnable. Ness's forward air outranges Marth's forward air and that is a pretty big deal in the match up. Without the chaingrab, it's 55 - 45 Marth wins.
p.s. Ness rules. He is actually a high tier character, but if the SBR wants to put him in low tier in their completely wrong tier list, it just means my opponents will be even more demoralised when they lose. (Lucas, on the other hand, is correctly placed in low tier.)
So I raped a Snake with Jiggly by keeping at a 45 * angle and spammed pound/Fair and grabbed when they landed then proceeded to juggle a bit more in the air and used a full-height Rollout to kill at the point where it goes above and past Snake's head so he doesn't suspect a backwards attack and spam tilts, and that pretty much works for me against most characters with Jiggs.
Any thoughts?
Any thoughts?
Play better Snakes.
NO, i never said they wouldn't switch, but there not going to do it in the open so the other character can hit them on the switch.
only their smashes deplete stamina not all of their attacks and smashes only add 1 second its not that big of a deal unless you like spamming smashes. When the fatigue kicks in just wait for an opening and switch.
Stalling them like that is retarded, if you are trying to stall they'll just switch when you get to far and bring out the next refreshed poke. If you can do that your not fighting good PTs.
Informative
I'm sure Jigglypuff should be higher. People are still playing it like Melee puff at the moment, which just won't work (since Rest is so bad now) - but Jigglypuff is a lot more playable than a lot of those above her. Ness is also way too low (Lucas is probably a wee bit too low as well).
Well, it was nicer than saying "play someone who uses the R button" but that advice applies too.
Rollout may or may not be safer depending on the opponent (as some have very easy-to-time attacks that beat Rollout) but it's very difficult to hit with because it takes too long to charge up and is easily waited out by staying in the air.
I think Jiggly is underrated anyway, but meh. Not a whole lot changed with her between Melee and Brawl, other than buffed FAir (in exchange for a nerfed BAir) and Rest is kinda crappy now. It's easier to combo into, though, and I always felt edgeguarding was her bigger strength anyway. Maybe the greater ease of recovering in Brawl has something to do with it. *shrug*
Switching isn't exactly a quick action, they'd have to be pretty damn far away to not even be able to punish you off a switch. (Which is possible if you switch right off a KO or knocking them off-stage, but generally not if they're perfectly safe at a mid-long distance.) There's nothing "retarded" about waiting PT out since it only gives the opponent the advantage as PT's pokémon get closer to becoming fatigued. Lame perhaps, like ledgecamping, but surely not stupid.
I think Jiggly is underrated anyway, but meh. Not a whole lot changed with her between Melee and Brawl, other than buffed FAir (in exchange for a nerfed BAir) and Rest is kinda crappy now. It's easier to combo into, though, and I always felt edgeguarding was her bigger strength anyway. Maybe the greater ease of recovering in Brawl has something to do with it. *shrug*
Switching isn't exactly a quick action, they'd have to be pretty damn far away to not even be able to punish you off a switch. (Which is possible if you switch right off a KO or knocking them off-stage, but generally not if they're perfectly safe at a mid-long distance.) There's nothing "retarded" about waiting PT out since it only gives the opponent the advantage as PT's pokémon get closer to becoming fatigued. Lame perhaps, like ledgecamping, but surely not stupid.
You've never fought any experienced PT's then if you can beat other players by doing that. Its retarded because you can't stall any character for two minutes like that, and it wont work. You have never fought an experienced PT using that strategy and stalling them is probably just an idea you've thought up but never really tried.
Also Pokemon Switch is a good move, your talking like its the most lagged, punishable move ever. All you have to to is find a 3 sec opening like knocking your opponent off the stage and as they recover switch to another poke, or on campy foes who space themselfs and are in the middle of attacking. The new pokemon you've switched in have fully refreshed moves while all of your opponents attacks are still becoming stale.
@yoshididy:jigglypuff and shiek's down B are laggyer.
Don't kid yourselves, Rollout is only useful on WiFi. It also has absolutely no priority, the thing is beaten out by most rapid jab combos which goes back to the "only useful on WiFi" deal. Rollout is too easy to jump over, shield, or punish with a rapid jab or extended hitbox. It works online because input lag and high ping can substantially increase effective reaction time. Trying to grab with a non-ranged one is risky, though. ;[
Of course you can stall characters like that. What do you think people do when there's less than a minute left in a match and they're currently ahead? They don't go in guns blazing, that's for sure. More than likely they're not going to flat-out run away from you the entire time but they will definitely be willing to be extra-cautious and force you to take the initiative, automatically putting PT at a disadvantage. The more they can slow the pace down the more it harms PT; Charizard/Ivysaur aren't exactly well-equipped to play tag with the likes of a dodgy opponent. Both are rather built to play a slower, more controlled spacing game but that entire philosophy goes against working around PT's Stamina limitation.
Pokémon Switch is a completely terrible move that is merely forced on PT users by the Stamina mechanic to make the use of all the pokémon necessary. (Well, at least two of them.) Even if you do manage to use it safely, such as immediately after knocking them off the stage, that's still a lost opportunity to edgeguard your opponent.
Of course you can stall characters like that. What do you think people do when there's less than a minute left in a match and they're currently ahead? They don't go in guns blazing, that's for sure. More than likely they're not going to flat-out run away from you the entire time but they will definitely be willing to be extra-cautious and force you to take the initiative, automatically putting PT at a disadvantage. The more they can slow the pace down the more it harms PT; Charizard/Ivysaur aren't exactly well-equipped to play tag with the likes of a dodgy opponent. Both are rather built to play a slower, more controlled spacing game but that entire philosophy goes against working around PT's Stamina limitation.
Pokémon Switch is a completely terrible move that is merely forced on PT users by the Stamina mechanic to make the use of all the pokémon necessary. (Well, at least two of them.) Even if you do manage to use it safely, such as immediately after knocking them off the stage, that's still a lost opportunity to edgeguard your opponent.
yeah pokemon switch is pretty shitty.
also the timer is complete bullshit, as if it makes sense for squirtle to get tired after doing his little dance for 2 minutes.
if the timer were gone and each move still took off a second of stamina, pt would be noticeably better. sakurai's biggest mistake when it comes to pt imo, aside from not loading the characters before the match (a la melee) so that switching were almost instantaneous.
you know, i've never really had a problem with people stalling out the stamina timer before...i guess the people i play aren't really douchebags heh.
but honestly none of the pokemon really mind being forced to approach. :\ squirtle is quick and nimble and has to approach anyway because...that's his style, ivysaur's bair and razor leaf are good and safe openers, and charizard has rock smash, flamethrower, a nice bair, and that awesome grab range and dash speed. he can cover (ground) distances in a hurry.
approaching probably bothers ivysaur the most, and as long as the opponent isn't a superior camper (falco for example) ivysaur can be opportunistic and play it safe until it can go in and do stuff.
also the timer is complete bullshit, as if it makes sense for squirtle to get tired after doing his little dance for 2 minutes.
if the timer were gone and each move still took off a second of stamina, pt would be noticeably better. sakurai's biggest mistake when it comes to pt imo, aside from not loading the characters before the match (a la melee) so that switching were almost instantaneous.
you know, i've never really had a problem with people stalling out the stamina timer before...i guess the people i play aren't really douchebags heh.
but honestly none of the pokemon really mind being forced to approach. :\ squirtle is quick and nimble and has to approach anyway because...that's his style, ivysaur's bair and razor leaf are good and safe openers, and charizard has rock smash, flamethrower, a nice bair, and that awesome grab range and dash speed. he can cover (ground) distances in a hurry.
approaching probably bothers ivysaur the most, and as long as the opponent isn't a superior camper (falco for example) ivysaur can be opportunistic and play it safe until it can go in and do stuff.
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