DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)

[ODDish]

Generally speaking anything that has a Flying Typing has a good chance against Venasuar as it cuts his reliable stab off.. to an extent and "forces" him to use his less reliable stab Poison. Examples would be Alteria, Ledian, and Drifblim.

Sorry but what? How is Poison any less relaible? Its simply resisted by a different set of pokemon ... the only two flying tyes I would really consider switching into Venusaur are Altaria, Articuno and Noctowl.

Also you have poison types who resist both Stabs and generally they have some bulk. Not to mention they can push out decent Nuetral hits against him. Examples would be Muk, Swalot, Beedrill, and Venomoth.

Current usage statistics puts all of those examples, bar Venomoth, outside of "UU" ...

Finally Steel Types. Unfourtunally Mawhile is our only mono Steel type but she does resist Grass and takes no damage from Poison.

She also has base 55 SpD so isn't exactly stellar in the face of continued onslaughts ....

Anyway, I think it is clear that Venusaur is at the very least not completely unbalancing in UU, so instead of moving it back up I reckon we should give some more BL Pokemon a run in UU. I think there are some strong threats that would now not be such an issue in this bulkier metagame and may actually help relieve the overemphasis on stall we have right now, as well as Venusaur. Believe it or not, I wouldn't mind giving Pinsir another go in UU now, despite the fact that I was strongly against it in the past, but times have changed.

No absolutely not ... not until there is an alternate environment for this "testing", as it is unfair to enforce participation on those who have little interest in playing BL/UU.


I also think its about time we abandonned the concept of the current "UU" metagame reflecting a truly underused environment, particularly with pokemon like Nidoqueen, Electrode, Weezing etc all seeing moderate useage on on the standard ladder ... perhaps terminology is something that needs addressing in upcoming weeks.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

No absolutely not ... not until there is an alternate environment for this "testing", as it is unfair to enforce participation on those who have little interest in playing BL/UU.

Nobody is 'enforcing participation' on anyone. If people don't like it they can just not play. That is what I've done with every single UU metagame we've had so far. Fairness isn't exactly something we can easily resolve either; for a truly fair metagame we'd have to have a tier to reflect every standard of play possible, including a tier in which Delibird and Luvdisc are top tier Pokemon. Otherwise it is unfair on people who want to use Delibird and Luvdisc in a viable competitive environment.

Look, I detest this current method we have as much as you do, but keeping a flawed metagame stagnant is just ignoring the problem, and trying to create another arbitrarily defined tier (NU) below UU is simply a failure to learn from past mistakes. IMO there are enough Pokemon in D/P for four different balanced tiers, and trying to fit the current metagame around the old ADV template has led to the mess we have right now that leaves far too many Pokemon in the cold.

 

[Boingo]

No absolutely not ... not until there is an alternate environment for this "testing", as it is unfair to enforce participation on those who have little interest in playing BL/UU.


I also think its about time we abandonned the concept of the current "UU" metagame reflecting a truly underused environment, particularly with pokemon like Nidoqueen, Electrode, Weezing etc all seeing moderate useage on on the standard ladder ... perhaps terminology is something that needs addressing in upcoming weeks.

Well, I'm confused. Is the proposed "BL metagame" ever going to happen? Because I also strongly oppose the idea of giving more BL Pokés "a run" in UU. Current UU is screwed up enough.

 

[ODDish]

Nobody is 'enforcing participation' on anyone. If people don't like it they can just not play.

A choice between participating or not playing is not really much of a choice is it, and just because it has always happened this way doesn't mean that it should continue to do so ...

IMO there are enough Pokemon in D/P for four different balanced tiers, and trying to fit the current metagame around the old ADV template has led to the mess we have right now that leaves far too many Pokemon in the cold.

I wasn't suggesting that we fit the current metagame around anything, rather that there be some sort of alternate ladder sub-section whatever where this can take place, rather than making the choice between mandatory participation in testing or not playing.

As for the creation of an arbitrary NU tier ... people aren't looking for anything set in stone, just some sort of rough guide that they can use as a temporary stop gap until the lower tiers are sorted once and for all.

 

[Stagnant]

Sorry but what? How is Poison any less relaible? Its simply resisted by a different set of pokemon ... the only two flying tyes I would really consider switching into Venusaur are Altaria, Articuno and Noctowl.

When I said you could use a Flying type I was simply stating that they have to be weary of what attack they are going to use. As Poison attacking type is hardly the best and it is "easy" to wall. Pretty much turns it into a prediction war.

Current usage statistics puts all of those examples, bar Venomoth, outside of "UU" ...

If your that worried of venasuar you are probabally willing to strech out into the UU tier. Besides you make it sound like Muk and Swalot are terrible. Which I find to be Lol.

She also has base 55 SpD so isn't exactly stellar in the face of continued onslaughts ....

I'm aware of Mawhiles aweful Special Defense. Which is why I said unfourtunally. Not to mention someone already mentioned a better Steel type for the job would be Wormadam-S. Who's typeing is incredible for UU.. IMO

 

[ODDish]

As Poison attacking type is hardly the best and it is "easy" to wall.

Poison hits fewer types for super effective damage, however Grass is more likely to be walled being resisted by seven types as opposed to Poisons five (well four resists and one immunity)

Besides you make it sound like Muk and Swalot are terrible. Which I find to be Lol.

No I simply stated that people are not using these pokemon. As for you assumption that I'm making them out to be terrible, you might remember that I am actually one of the few players to actually use these lower ranking pokemon regularly, so I am more than aware of their strengths and limitations.

 

[Stagnant]

No I simply stated that people are not using these pokemon. As for you assumption that I'm making them out to be terrible, you might remember that I am actually one of the few players to actually use these lower ranking pokemon regularly, so I am more than aware of their strengths and limitations.

I do enjoy playing ALL of your teams. People need to have more teams like you IMO. However, I'm honestly nuetral to Venasaur but I just don't restricting my options for UU.

So when is Aero going to take his Exit?

 

[Age of Kings]

Just posting to say I'm also one of the myriads of people who secretly wanted Aero to be booted to OU.

In BL news, while Alakazam is out, Hippowdon is in. Or according to the suspect ladder, if Garchomp is banned, P-2 (and some more...) is OU. Fuck either scenario, although if I had to pick, the second wouldn't be as bad. I'm going to be seriously frightened until the Policy Review finally gets around to making the BL ladder (which hopefully would be permanent....) given the shifts and changes that OU and BL will experience until then, because of either development, most of my teams have been rendered obsolete. >_>;

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

When was it decided Aero was going to be ousted from UU?

 

[ODDish]

It wasn't, but since X-Act's latest stats place it in the OU bracket there is need for discussion ...

 

[Age of Kings]

While I oppose Aero in UU, I would wait for official word that Aero is OU.

Like, I think X-Act makes a couple of threads after on a bunch of random stuff, and then proceeds to say so and so is now OU, so and so is now BL, etc.

 

[Venom]

I don't have much of a problem with Aerodactyl personally, I find Claydol my counter to it, too bad I can't talk for everyone here, but I do oppose Venusaur in UU.

 

[Cynthia]

Aerodactyl is OU due to recent statistics. A Pokemon can't be OU and UU at the same time, so it's removed from UU, regardless of power level. You may not agree with it, but that's how the tiers are constructed. It should be removed from the UU ladder ASAP.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Aerodactyl is OU due to recent statistics. A Pokemon can't be OU and UU at the same time, so it's removed from UU, regardless of power level. You may not agree with it, but that's how the tiers are constructed. It should be removed from the UU ladder ASAP.

No, the OU/BL lists are updated every three months, with the next one due at the beginning of October. So technically Aero is still UU.

 

[Aldaron]

Just throwing this out there (might as well as long as we are continuing to build uu as it is), but do you guys honestly find issues with Aerodactyl / Clefable / Steelix / Weezing / Claydol / Miltank?

My general experiences on the uu ladder (using about 4 or 5 different teams) haven't really caused me to have any particular issues with any of them.

We can theorymon all we want about what can counter what and what can check what and what can beat what, but do Clefable / Aerodactyl (picking the two most controversial) really hurt that much?

Or is because you aren't willing to use what beats them? It isn't like Garchomp where you have to specialize your team and playing style just to account for YacheChomp + ScarfChomp; I mean, I beat Clefable with Close Combat (extremely common in UU) and I beat Aerodactyl with Stealth Rock plus anything with Scarf lol.

I'll admit I don't really like the current state of uu, but I can't really definitively say these are the problem Pokemon.

If you want to know the one Pokemon that really rides my ass, it would easily be Venusaur. Venusaur has caused me to have nightmares of Garchomp on OU.

It's unpredictability often causes me to have to voluntarily cripple one of my Pokemon (is it Sleep Powder Swords Dance? Is it Sleep Powder Choice Scarf? Is it Choice Specs? Is it a bulky version? Is it setting up Rain for Kabutops?) in order to deal with it.

It isn't just the unpredictability though. The Sleep Powder Swords Dance set (Jrrrrrrr will testify here) is ridiculous. Sleep Powder something, Swords Dance and sweep with decent speed, enough bulk to not be OHKOed by most SE attacks and with the solid coverage in UU of either Grass / Normal or Ground / Normal.

So yea...I'd like to kind of point discussion towards Venusaur =/

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

It isn't just the unpredictability though. The Sleep Powder Swords Dance set (Jrrrrrrr will testify here) is ridiculous. Sleep Powder something, Swords Dance and sweep with decent speed, enough bulk to not be OHKOed by most SE attacks and with the solid coverage in UU of either Grass / Normal or Ground / Normal.

Drifblim sets up on that any day of the week, and Rotom cripples it easily (with your own set!). A decent set, but hardly gamebreaking.

So yea...I'd like to kind of point discussion towards Venusaur

To be honest that is where most of the real discussion has been recently. Most of the Aero debate is about whether it should be removed to OU.

 

[Age of Kings]

No, the OU/BL lists are updated every three months, with the next one due at the beginning of October. So technically Aero is still UU.

Aha, this is what I was referring to.

 

[kd24]

alright, ive been uu battling under an alt now for the past few hours, trying to see what pokemon overcentralize the metagame. I felt venusaur was a given and sure enough, it was.

The Choice Specs Venusaur set is so incredibly deadly, especially since the only real counters are fire types such as Macargo and Flareon. I have even considered running Hidden Power Ground just to beat them but bah. However, Sleep Powder works just as well, taking out the opponents venusaur counter (articuno, fire-types, ect.).

The power of Leaf Storm is my main issue, as it 2hkos Mantine easily and venusaur is so tough to take down. You pretty much need specs glaceon to take it down in 1 shot. That really is your only hope (ok yeah ninetails and stuff works too, but venusaur just avoids them B/).

Being able to take all sorts of hits and dish out that much power is way too scary. But thats not all.

Swords Dance Venusaur is so deadly as well. Sleep Power / Swords Dance / Seed Bomb / Earthquake. Earthquake now takes care of stuff like the fire-types and steel-types. Seed Bomb is just killer after a Swords Dance. Sleep Powder takes down an counters it might run into. I see people run Return for articuno which is just as deadly, and makes venusaur that much better of a sweeper. That bulkiness makes it like the Garchomp of UU B/.

Definitely deserves a ban.

Now, here is the surprising Pokemon. Articuno is so deadly in UU that it shocks me. The fact of the matter is, Articuno has a base total of 580 and support moves in the matter of Haze, Roost, Reflect, Roar, ... And to top it off, Ice Beam is really powerful against a lot of uu pokemon. People who are timid to use articuno because of sr? dont be. sr is so easy to remove in uu since most teams end up using claydol or hitmontop (sometimes both). Even sandslash can be used. As long as you can deal with their ghost type early (surprise kill on rotom is how i do it) articuno will stay up forever. CM boosts will just be roared away by cuno. damage will just be roosted. Reflect makes life orb toxicroak's cross chop a 5hko factoring in leftovers and no misses.

I have faced some exceedingly good players with Articuno and have just stalled them out completely with it, costing them the game. Really deserves a ban imo, because any competent player will be able to kill you with articuno.

 

[Cynthia]

So I guess we sort of just wait for Aerodactyl to officially fall into OU? It's a really awkward and roundabout way to do it, but I didn't make the system.

Also Aldaron, Close Combat is a move not a Pokemon. The UU users of CC do not have the bulk to switch into Toxic Orb Facade possibly even once, which is part of the problem.

I'm currently undecided about Venasaur. It has quite a few useful sets, but all are counterable with the right pokemon. Flying types, poison types, fire types, while they may not OHKO Venasaur, Vena usually isn't strong enough to OHKO back either. Sleep/Swords Dance isn't the best set, its slow and can be Roared or Hazed away (see Leafeon's counter section.) It's tough to call.

I haven't found Articuno particularly overpowering. Let's ignore the SR weak for a second, and you realize that its defensive typing is still bad. Ground immunity and resists to Bug and grass in exchange for weaks to fire, electric, and 4x rock. Not a good trade. It also has a shallow offensive movepool outside its STAB. Hidden Power and...Sky Attack..and Signal Beam, you get the picture.

Articuno lacks stat boosting moves, namely offensively. it can set up scrrens and haze, useful but not gamebreaking. Its offense is pretty mediocre, as long as you aren't weak to ice you should be able to reocover it off. Articuno isn't useless, but overpowered is not really the word for it. I haven't found a spot for it personally.

 

[gengod]

Heh, I find this issue with Venusaur particularly amusing as it was one of the candidates with the least amount of opposition along with Shedinja.

Personally, I only have one problem with Venusaur and I don't think of it as having much similarites to Garchomp. It seems more like Infernape and Lucario or even Mew or Mewtwo as it can run quite a few sets and be effective while doing it but should it's unpredictability of all things be the deciding factor in wheter Venusaur should be banned or not? Honestly, I dont think it should.

My only problem with Venusaur is the actual power of Specs Leaf Storm which does seem a bit too powerful but when you think about it; its not like Venusaur has the most powerful Leaf Storm in UU and even if the most powerful user of it isn't used much (Sunflora) there are a ton of other Pokemon that have a close enough Special Attack stat for the differences in damage to not matter that much Victreebel, Shiftry for examples, so more or less this isn't a much of a factor towards banning Venusaur either.

 

[Bourbon]

It's not just the power of Leaf Storm that makes Venusaur a PITA to deal with. The impressive sturdiness, speed and Sleep Powder means that Victreebell and Sunflora aren't even in the same league.

I knew Venusaur was a bad idea but no one believed me until now.

 

[Aldaron]

Lol Maniac I wasn't aware you looked at each individual benefit of a Pokemon separately and once you determined that aspect was not sufficient you discarded it.

It isn't that Venusaur has (or doesn't) the strongest Leaf Storm, it's that it also has decent Speed, impressive bulk, Sleep Powder and the ability to run a variety of sets that require different Pokemon / strategies to beat.

And Lemmiewinks, way to just give a few examples of stuff that counter it. Doesn't really tell me anything. I never said it was one set that caused Venusaur to be broken, but the fact that it could feasibly run about 4-6 different sets, all to good results and all that are handled differently.

And of course, you are assuming that Venusaur won't just put Driflblim / Rotom to sleep in the first place.

 

[Shucklestar]

I think I'm going to contribute my two cents to this thread and propose that Kabutops be moved up to BL. I've been using it for the past two months in many different types of battling . It is too outclassed for UU battling, and really needs a move up.

First off, I want to talk about its stats. It has base 115 attack, and base 105 defense, and base 80 speed, and when used in rain, and has Swift Swim, makes it 160, making it deadly with its combined defense, and attack (and if Choice Banded, makes it an even better sweeper). It's Spdef stat isn't absolutely terrible either, at base 75. It's HP is it's downside though, which makes it too frail for OU placement.

Next, there's it's moveset, which greatly benefited Kabutops in the Adv->Ds switch. It gained X-Scissor, Night Slash and Stone Edge (also a STAB move
) as great sweeping move in this generation, while most of the other UU pokemon didn't get great benefits in the generation change. Kabutops also gained Stone Edge, and can also learn Rapid Spin, and with it's decent defense, can be a great rapid spinner. Swords Dance and Rock Polish are two other benefits that it has. It's also packed with two STAB flinch moves, Rock Slide and Waterfall, and if used in Rain, Waterfall gets even more power, and since Kabutops will outspeed pretty much anything in play, the flinching moves are a great benefit to Kabutops.

Not only can Kabutops adapt to the Rain environment well, it can work just as well in Sandstorms as well. It gets an even bigger defense boost, and fixes it's Spdef stat. It can be scarfed and given Battle Armor to prevent crit hax and give it a speed boost.

I have been using Kabutops in a doubles Rain Dance team and it has torn apart many OU teams, and some uber teams. I've also used it in OU on Shoddy and it works great to clean up the trash in late battles, and also works nice as a support, better than any other UU pokemon I've tried to use. It has a hard time switching into some things though, because 1 Thunderbolt if it's not protected by Sandstorm and it's basically done for, which also makes it a little too frail for OU placement.

So basically, what I'm saying is that Kabutops outclasses most of UU, but it can be a little too weak for OU sometimes, which makes it a great candidate to be moved up to BL if you ask me.

 

[ODDish]

We can theorymon all we want about what can counter what and what can check what and what can beat what, but do Clefable / Aerodactyl (picking the two most controversial) really hurt that much? Or is because you aren't willing to use what beats them? It isn't like Garchomp where you have to specialize your team and playing style just to account for YacheChomp + ScarfChomp; I mean, I beat Clefable with Close Combat (extremely common in UU) and I beat Aerodactyl with Stealth Rock plus anything with Scarf lol. I'll admit I don't really like the current state of uu, but I can't really definitively say these are the problem Pokemon.

Of course taken on an individual basis very few pokemon will appear that probelmatic, however the problem with the current UU environment lies in the combination of these problematic pokemon ....

When you have to construct a team that must simultaneously stop/deal with

Rain Dance -both physical and special sweepers
Spikes/Stealth Rock
Rapid spin blockers
Fighting types
Aerodactyl
Swellow
Clefable
Venusaur/Glaceon
Ninetales
STAB Sucker Punch
Status
Bulky walls
Altaria

your options become incredibly limited, which in a tier compromising 156 pokemon is not ideal.

 

[Salem1]

Of course taken on an individual basis very few pokemon will appear that probelmatic, however the problem with the current UU environment lies in the combination of these problematic pokemon ....

When you have to construct a team that must simultaneously stop/deal with

Rain Dance -both physical and special sweepers
Spikes/Stealth Rock
Rapid spin blockers
Fighting types
Aerodactyl
Swellow
Clefable
Venusaur/Glaceon
Ninetales
STAB Sucker Punch
Status
Bulky walls
Altaria

your options become incredibly limited, which in a tier compromising 156 pokemon is not ideal.

You've only just touched the tip of the iceberg there as well...