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DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)
- Thread starter Phuquoph
- Start date
He hits everything in UU for at least neutral damage, how is that ''easy'' to wall? He pretty much OHKO's/2KO's the entire metagame except for a few Pokes like Weezing and Claydol. If Hitmonlee is ''easy to wall'' then I find it quite questionable that Venusaur is being debated.
And also, both of those are vulnerable to Pursuit. I could just go on right now and make a Jolly CB Lee and put something with Pursuit there. How do you think I'll fare? I myself think I'll OHKO or 2KO anything that doesn't resist my moves while being largely immune to return damage unless I make some stupid mistakes. Both Rotom and Claydol will go down to repeated hits, and neither is that likely to just be able to sit there and wait for Hitmonlee to come out into play, especially when your opponent knows of them.
And also, both of those are vulnerable to Pursuit. I could just go on right now and make a Jolly CB Lee and put something with Pursuit there. How do you think I'll fare? I myself think I'll OHKO or 2KO anything that doesn't resist my moves while being largely immune to return damage unless I make some stupid mistakes. Both Rotom and Claydol will go down to repeated hits, and neither is that likely to just be able to sit there and wait for Hitmonlee to come out into play, especially when your opponent knows of them.
The point is that one can switch Claydol/Weezing/Rotom into Hitmonlee and either force it out or kill it. Hitmonlee's defenses are abysmal, there are so very few attacks it can switch into. It needs a Scarf to be considered a fast Pokemon, which you can beat with prediction.
Weezing isn't weak to Pursuit for the record.
Weezing isn't weak to Pursuit for the record.
Yeah, because SpecsSaur and CB Lee are in no way similar. Nope, none...
Claydol generally won't be able to kill it, unless you've got Psychic somewhere in there. Why? because Lee still has decent Sp. Def and Claydol doesn't have much of an Sp. Atk. Claydol is feared more than it deserves imo. Sure it can force it out, but that won't get rid of it. Weezing is a decent counter, I'll admit that. Rotom works for the moment, but it can easily be countered by anything with a Lum Berry and Pursuit, not to mention that WoW still has a 75% hit chance. I might as well just go to the creative move sets thread right now and do that...
I said SpecSaur not Venusaur (ScarfSaur works as well). Do you need to resort to personal attacks in order to make your point? They play mostly similar roles when equipped with these items in respect to what people currently use them for. Both tear huge chunks out of most things they hit and both have been whined about (unless the fighting dominance a few months ago, before Weezing was brought down, was just an illusion). There was even a warstory which showcased how with repeated pummeling, you can bring down the opposing team's Fighting counter and basically end the game there.
Venusaur is taken out by Dodrio which I suggested earlier. Hitmonlee has no such Poke that can simply switch in on it without dying to repeated blows, and it has no setup time either. Just because it's in UU doesn't mean that it's necessarily balanced for that tier...
All right, it can. It still isn't going to do anything to actually damage Hitmonlee before it switches out though, and once Claydol is gone, your team is generally gone as well. They can indeed get WoW'ed by Rotom but WoW is not a reliable move. Hell, why not switch into Raticate and thank Rotom for that WoW while Pursuiting it to death with a CB?
Venusaur is taken out by Dodrio which I suggested earlier. Hitmonlee has no such Poke that can simply switch in on it without dying to repeated blows, and it has no setup time either. Just because it's in UU doesn't mean that it's necessarily balanced for that tier...
All right, it can. It still isn't going to do anything to actually damage Hitmonlee before it switches out though, and once Claydol is gone, your team is generally gone as well. They can indeed get WoW'ed by Rotom but WoW is not a reliable move. Hell, why not switch into Raticate and thank Rotom for that WoW while Pursuiting it to death with a CB?
How does Dodrio not die to repeated blows. Sludge Bomb will be severely hurting Dodrio, as will Leaf Storm despite the resistance. Dodrio also can't come in on status, and is weak to Stealth Rock, and cannot utilize recovery well.
Also, he already listed three Pokemon that can switch in on Hitmonlee easily -- Weezing, Rotom, Claydol. Weezing gets Pain Split, and Rotom can RestTalk (LonelyNess's set is Rest/Sleep Talk/Will-O-Wisp/Thunderbolt). Claydol, admittedly, usually can't recover, but that doesn't stop it from being a good counter (CB Close Combat is a 3HKO at best, whereas Claydol can set up Reflect to soften the blows or simply KO it with Psychic).
Even in UU terms, Hitmonlee's speed is just sort of average. Swellow, Aerodactyl, Froslass, Ninetales, and many other Pokemon revenge-kill him unless he packs a Scarf, which makes him much easier to wall. His paper-frail defenses are what make him a significantly lesser threat than Venusaur.
Also, he already listed three Pokemon that can switch in on Hitmonlee easily -- Weezing, Rotom, Claydol. Weezing gets Pain Split, and Rotom can RestTalk (LonelyNess's set is Rest/Sleep Talk/Will-O-Wisp/Thunderbolt). Claydol, admittedly, usually can't recover, but that doesn't stop it from being a good counter (CB Close Combat is a 3HKO at best, whereas Claydol can set up Reflect to soften the blows or simply KO it with Psychic).
Even in UU terms, Hitmonlee's speed is just sort of average. Swellow, Aerodactyl, Froslass, Ninetales, and many other Pokemon revenge-kill him unless he packs a Scarf, which makes him much easier to wall. His paper-frail defenses are what make him a significantly lesser threat than Venusaur.
Finally someone with a decent post.
Point taken, Dodrio doesn't work.
Also, that Rotom is fodder for Raticate. It will likely try to WoW which is absorbed by Guts, and it can then do nothing but sit there and get destroyed by CB Pursuit. It might be a good counter would it have been a 1-on-1 between Claydol and Lee, but it isn't. Experienced battlers will know that Claydol is setup fodder (or at least it's out of experience my favorite setup fodder), switch to something else and setup. You've got nothing to fear from a Claydol that can't hit you for super-effective damage. Sure, it could set up Reflect. So what? it's still setup fodder.
Swellow has nothing against types that resist its core moves, it's out of the equation. Aerodactyl is getting moved back up to BL. Froslass and Ninetales work, but they're both vulnerable to stealth rock and Stone Edge. Scyther has a 4x against SR as well.
I could have written another paragraph about that, but to make it concise, it's easier said than done to exploit Lee's defenses, just as it is easier said than done to exploit Rampardos's Attack stat. Up against a competent battler with a Hitmonlee on their team, I don't think you'll be of the same opinion (note that I'm not in any way insulting you, incase you took that wrong).
I'm also not trying to say that you can't counter Hitmonlee. I'm saying that he's simply too good for UU relative to the other Pokes.
This isn't going to come to anything and I don't want to say, but just because I beat you with a Hitmonlee 6 - 0 in the ladder does NOT mean it should be BL, like it's been said, Claydol is the perfect counter to Hitmonlee, other people like me carry Psychic on Claydol and everything that Hitmonlee throws at Claydol is shit, so yeah Hitmonlee is in no way or form too strong for UU.
Feel free to reply
That was against my mono-Rock team... hardly surprising. It's either that or my mono-Dark team which I made today, so don't think so. Claydol can't recover damage before it dies, it's been said and done to wear a Claydol down and then sweep unopposed. Claydol is not a perfect Lee counter because it has no recovery, it is easy to set up on and does little damage if it doesn't carry Psychic, and it then loses Ice Beam, while I can just switch out and not fear whatever Claydol throws at me. I'd personally appreciate people trying to counter my Lee with Claydol would I ever be so cheap as to use one. Poliwrath, Scyther (which admittedly loses 50% from SR, but it's just an example)... you name it, they'll all be able to set up on Claydol.
Double-Edge/Blaze Kick isn't shit, especially not if you're backing DE up with Reckless. That will take a good chunk out of Claydol which it cannot recover from.
I'm going to make a Lee + Raticate team tomorrow and report back with how it went...
BTW, a Crunch from boosted guts doesn't even come close to KO'ing the bulky Rotom set, when you easily attack back with T-bolt, as Raticate is already taking burn damage and possibly SR damage on the switch. Pursuit is even better since it will do only half the damage when you stay in to attack it. That Raticate will not carry both Pursuit AND Crunch, so after the first Crunch it is safe to switch in your counter, while Raticate suffers more burn damage.
Saying Claydol can be easily worn out is extremely stupid, that statement regards to pokemon as a whole - wear down your counters to open a sweep. The point is that Claydol does force a switch on that Hitmonlee, and it could be healed by Wish, especially when paired with Clefable that lures fighting types.
Saying Claydol can be easily worn out is extremely stupid, that statement regards to pokemon as a whole - wear down your counters to open a sweep. The point is that Claydol does force a switch on that Hitmonlee, and it could be healed by Wish, especially when paired with Clefable that lures fighting types.
whilst venusaur has been a pain, i've found it less problematic to me then aerodactyl and miltank. weezing i havent seen though
I would hardly call hitmonlee's sp.DEF abysmal.
Anyway *more ranting about miltank, venusaur and friends for reasons already discussed a hundred times over*
Anyway *more ranting about miltank, venusaur and friends for reasons already discussed a hundred times over*
And you're factoring in CB, Adamant and max Attack I hope? I only need to 2KO it as long as Rotom won't KO me. It can't run away, and if it doesn't KO me before I KO it, it's gone. Raticate doesn't need to survive. As long as Rotom is gone, it has done its job.
And what does that change? ''Could'' get healed by Wish yes, ''most likely will'', no. In that case I ''could'' get a critical hit on Close Combat and KO Claydol. See where this is going to end? You can't argue in could's.
Nidoqueen has been a good Hitmonlee counter for me, perticularly Choice Band variants, but it can handle all of them pretty well.
I understand that Claydol does not have a recovery move and makes it a "not-perfect" counter to Hitmonlee, but if we go with your logic any pokemon can beat another pokemon regardless of stats and typing.
I won't talk for everybody here, because maybe I'm one of the "few" people that carry Psychic on Claydol, but I assure you that even with Ice Beam or Earthpower there isn't any chance you can set up on a Claydol, since a smart Hitmonlee user won't be switching into one, and Hitmonlee never makes you cheap, so leave that bullshit out.
Yes, because every Hitmonlee you see has Blaze Kick and DE, and that if that's the case, then Nidoqueen comes in, and please don't say some shit like BZ and DE with EQ because then you're just making shit up.
That doesn't even make sense. Why can't I run away? If you run Pursuit, it won't be a 2HKO, so I can stay and kill you. If you run Crunch, I can switch to a proper counter and keep my Rotom.
So are you comparing strategy with pure luck now? You're right, this definitely isn't going anywhere. I'm tired of trying to prove you wrong, when there's really no need here since you're pretty much the only one who thinks that. Good luck trying to convince everyone.
First off, Blaze Kick does crap to Claydol. It's maybe a 4HKO at best, depending on the spreads of each Pokemon.
Double Edge is going to kill Hitmonlee pretty quickly, and still won't 2HKO. Adamant CB Reckless perhaps could, but those are extremely uncommon.
The fact is that Claydol can usually take 4-5 hits from Hitmonlee and OHKO back. That's a counter.
By the way, I did underestimate Hitmonlee's base special defense, but with 50 hp it's nearly useless.
Double Edge is going to kill Hitmonlee pretty quickly, and still won't 2HKO. Adamant CB Reckless perhaps could, but those are extremely uncommon.
The fact is that Claydol can usually take 4-5 hits from Hitmonlee and OHKO back. That's a counter.
By the way, I did underestimate Hitmonlee's base special defense, but with 50 hp it's nearly useless.
Well, most of the claydols I've been seeing as of late (including mine) are psychic users. So many fighting and poison types around, it's inevitable that psychic will be a common attacking type in UU these days.
I just think that save for ubers, Psychic is becoming a more viable attacking type this gen all around, not just in UU.
It's stll not exactly Recover though.