• Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!

DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)

yea but even with my one complaint, venusaur, being allowed I am able to make teams with little to no difficulty

in fact, scanning the 4 team I used a lot recently, I have 18 original pokemon (i used rotom 3 times, venusaur 3 times, sharpedo twice and nidoking twice)

I know that using specific examples isn't proof or anything, so please dont think I am trying to state something as fact here.

But honestly, I am not seeing a huge team building issue right now =/

I mean the second month of uu ladder has seen its "ou" pokemon number jump drastically, from what, 39 to the upper 40s right?

My only complaint right now is with Venusaur, which is only due to how difficult it is to play against due to its unpredictability.

Your little "list" ODDish doesn't really seem to be too difficult to deal with lol.
 
I agree on Venusaur. It's not that it's too powerful, it can simply do too much, sort of like Clefable. Although I think there are several Pokes that could be used against it that are also useful otherwise, like Dodrio. Early Bird is great against Sleep Powder, Pursuit catches it when it tries to switch out and its Flying type help it resist Leaf Storm. It can then Roost off the damage. STAB Quick Attack is helpful as well for taking out Close Combat users. The defense drop is very welcome, and sort of makes up for Fighting types resisting Pursuit should you try to predict a switch.

There is also Noctowl, Parasect against Leaf Storm versions (particularily Pursuit equipped Parasects, or you can just choose to Spore and then Stun Spore as usual) and CB-Muk. Gunk Shot will rip a hole through most of what could switch-in, although you could also put Focus Punch in there to do something to predicted Steelix switch-ins, and Muk is still bulky against special hits with 252 Atk/252 Sp. Def, while also resisting both of Venusaur's STAB attacks. Although Parasect and Muk can be shut down with Sleep Powder.
 
Yes, it may be easy to wall, but can you wall it too well whenever your poke that stops it is asleep? I don't think you'll want to be taking too many hits from it then:)
 
Venusaur has definately been the star of my team for me. I've tried loads of sets on it. I quite liked a Sleep Talk one I tried, and HP Psychic was pretty good on it too.

And also, what's the latest news with the OU NFEs? We need to add them sometime. It's not going to be a major change anyway. Only a few will see use, and a few more will get banned.
 
Your little "list" ODDish doesn't really seem to be too difficult to deal with lol.
Click to expand...

Then consider my concerns cheefully withdrawn, me and my little list will leave you all to your Venusaur discussion.
 
Aldaron said:
It isn't that Venusaur has (or doesn't) the strongest Leaf Storm, it's that it also has decent Speed, impressive bulk, Sleep Powder and the ability to run a variety of sets that require different Pokemon / strategies to beat.
Click to expand...

You're making it sound like if I think Leaf Storm should be the deciding factor in wheter Venusaur should be banned or not. I said that the power of Specs Leaf Storm is the only problem I have with Venusaur and that isn't much to go on when there are Pokemon in UU with the same move that can do roughly the same damage.

Also I think this "Venusaur can run a variety of sets and it's unpredictability should be grounds for its banning" argument is bullshit and being grossly exaggerated. Venusaur can run Specs, Scarf, Swords Dance or a bulky wall (wheter it sets up Rain Dance or is using Sub Seed is pretty irrelevant, since with these sets it is still going to be running around the same EVs)

All of these sets have similar counters probaly aside from the Specs set which may require different counters due to the power of its Specs attacks. Venusaur has a decent movepool and stats but its not the next Mew or Arceus.
 
So basically you just said that Venusaur runs 4 different sets, and countering them involves different Pokemon.

Yep, that's what I said too.
 
Aldaron said:
So basically you just said that Venusaur runs 4 different sets, and countering them involves different Pokemon.

Yep, that's what I said too.
Click to expand...

What are you talking about? Thats definitely not what I said.

EDIT:
JabbaTheGriffin said:
the SD set and the specs set have almost completely opposite counters and both have the capability of straight running through teams. i think that's enough to warrant calling venusaur overpowered for uu.
Click to expand...

I'd be more inclined to agree with you if the coverage on the Sword Dance set wasn't terrible.
 
the SD set and the specs set have almost completely opposite counters and both have the capability of straight running through teams. i think that's enough to warrant calling venusaur overpowered for uu.
 
Venusaur has four sets, and they DON'T all require separate counters. Muk will walk all over any set except the Swords Dance set. Fast Ice/Psychic attackers like Jynx and Scarf Glaceon can rape all sets other than the Scarf set. This is especially true with the Swords Dance set, where you bring it in on the SD and then murder it to death the next turn.

Really, the Scarf set is the only one that I'm actually worried about. It outspeeds a lot of stuff, and with its bulk, it can repeatedly come in and destroy stuff. The Specs set is somewhat equally devastating, especially because it can run a 252 HP/252 SpA spread and be a bulky Pokemon that hits hard. However, Glaceon is just as scary, and Ice is a much better attacking type. The insane offensive power of Specs Glaceon combined with its great bulk means that it almost ensures one kill per match simply through its sheer power. Furthermore, Glaceon arguably has better type coverage, since Ice/Ghost/Fighting is a pretty great offensive combination, far better than Grass/Poison/Fire.

Honestly, Specs Glaceon is in almost every case way scarier than Specs Venusaur. That said, I still think that they should BOTH be moved out, since 130 Special Attack with 65/110/95 defenses is just as good as 100 Special Attack with 83/85/100 defenses. Ice DOES suck as a defensive typing, but it's still bulky enough to even take SE attacks (Aerodactyl LO Stone Edge lol?) and OHKO back.
 
Moving out Glaceon would be silly. It has poor type coverage with its moves (Vena's not so great here either), worst defensive typing in the game, and is slow with few support options.

There seems to be a lot of dispute on the Venasaur issue, so I suggest it come down to a vote similar to previous votes for OU/Uber. That seems to be the fairest way, rather than someone simply deciding on a consensus.
 
Uh Maniac, that is what you said.

Maniaclyrasist said:
Venusaur can run Specs, Scarf, Swords Dance or a bulky wall
Click to expand...
(that would be where you said it can run 4 sets)

Maniaclyrasist said:
All of these sets have similar counters probaly aside from the Specs set which may require different counters due to the power of its Specs attacks.
Click to expand...
(lol this would be where you say they have different counters, since you say 3 involve the same and one involves different ones.)

Also, terrible coverage? Riiight. Hitting everything in UU for neutral besides Drifblim, Mawile (lol), Shedinja (lol) and Wormadan-S (lol) with Grass / Normal (Seed Bomb / Double Edge) is "terrible."

Not to mention that Venusaur doesn't just have that great neutral coverage, but Sleep Powder as well.

Mmhhmmm.

EDIT: OK, you guys are definitely just arbitrarily ignoring certain sets for some reason that I cannot imagine. SDS's statement that "they do NOT require different counters" is countered by himself when he says "Muk can counter three of them but o not one of them!!". How exactly does Muk counter a SD Earthquake? You're right, it doesn't.

But I don't like conversation about counters since I think they are pretty much an archaic concept in terms of necessity. The issue is that the SD set can feasibly run 3 different attacking moves (Earthquake, Return / Double-Edge, Seed Bomb) and the stuff that walls the Specs sets (Muk and company) are all beaten soundly by them. The SD set + the Specs set involve pretty different Pokemon in terms of dealing with them, and then you have the whole issue with the Scarf set actually being viable, so even if you do somehow get the information advantage in finding out it was Choiced without hurting your team, you have to worry about whether or not it is Scarfed.

The safest (and trust me, I am not a safe player) way to deal with Venusaur (ESPECIALLY because of Sleep Powder) is to carry something like Muk, something like Drifblim AND a faster Scarfer with a powerful Ice Beam, and then cleverly switch around to gain the information advantage and then beat it.

(Sounds a lot like Garchomp to me =/)
 
The SD set doesn't get much coverage, Seed Bomb/EQ is walled by things like all flying types, and Seed Bomb/Return is walled by things like Drifblim. Weezing sponges all attacks easily and WoWs back. Vena isn't naturally fast either, so you'll either have to max speed or add to bulk.

Drifblim and Noctowl make good counters in general. Drifblim resists almost every attack Vena can throw at it, barring weird HP Ice sets or something. Noctowl has high special defense and is immune to sleep, and has STAB Flying. Hypno is also immune to sleep, has high spdef and can hit back with Psychic.

Muk and Swalot can take any set not packing EQ or HP Psychic, Swalot can even sponge Leech Seed. Clefable is immune to Leech Seed as well and can do lots of things to Venasaur.

Vena has some solid counters, people just aren't using them.
 
(Sounds a lot like Garchomp to me =/)
Click to expand...

Not really, and I'm surprised you of all people tried to get away with using that analogy. Garchomp can stampede through OU with just one set that everybody knows and prepares for, and a well played Yache SD Chomp will almost always take down at least one pokemon no matter how much you prepare for it. This is not the case with Venusaur in UU, as each set is very much counterable, and like you said it is just about finding out which one it is and going from there. That is not unique to Venusaur.

Now don't get me wrong, as I still have some concerns about Venusaur along with Clefable (who dwarfs Venusaur's four viable sets with about 10 of its own), but I'm not going to say that it has anywhere near the effect on teambuilding that Chomp does in OU because that is simply an overexaggeration.
 
getting sick of miltank, have to sleep it or taunt it otherwise its bodyslam (take 20-30% damage) repeat, milk drink, repeat scenario 1, if some sort of burn/para happens it uses heal bell... its hard to enjoy a match against this.
used nintails life orb + flamethrower and needed 2 NP to do 66%, its a bit too bulky.
 
Lemmiewinks, that's why I put it in ()

It's only my feeling I'm not going to actually use it as an argument. Also, I was more comparing the fact that in OU I had to have something that could switch in initially and take a potential Choice Banded attack, I had to have something that could survive a SD Outrage to use an Ice attack to eliminate Yache, and then I had to have something faster to finish it off. The comparison was that now I need something to be able to take a strong Specs attack, something to absorb Sleep, something that isn't hurt drastically by Swords Dance + Seed Bomb / Double-Edge / Earthquake and finally something that can actually deal significant damage to this thing.

Also, can you guys stop saying the SD set does not get much coverage lol. Grass / Normal hits everything neutral besides 4 Pokemon, 3 of which are almost a joke.
 
Grass Normal is walled by Gengar... Mawile... Skarmory... Bronzong, Metagross, Jirachi... what else?

Of course the only UU one is Mawile : /
 
Drifblim actually covers all of those requirements, barring sleep or weird Hidden Powers(though with lum you can use unburden to then outspeed Vena.)

Venomoth does a pretty good job, it 4x resists Grass and 2x poison. You'd need something to absorb sleep, but it can outspeed vena and hurt it badly with Psychic or STAB. Vena could be carrying a Hidden Power to hurt it, but it would have to be on the switch.

Clefable is immune to Leech Seed, often is immune to sleep due to Toxic Orb, and can take Specs Leaf Storm and Encore Swords Dance.

There are lots of other examples that only fall to one specific set Vena is unlikely to have (SD EQ etc.)
 
Grass Normal is walled by Gengar... Mawile... Skarmory... Bronzong, Metagross, Jirachi... what else?

Of course the only UU one is Mawile : /
Click to expand...

Aldaron already said "mawile, wormadam, drifblim, shedinja is all the resists the normal + grass SD set.
 
@re Glaceon

Yes, the thing is a beast (though a cute beast?). It can 2hko disturbingly much of UU with ice beam when running specs, while also being relatively bulky (at least with HP investment), to let it come in easily on ice attacks and also neutral attacks. Though not sporting impressive speed, it's still enough to get the hit on most walls.

However, all this being said, and myself having wanted to build a team with it for some time now, I don't find it overpowered, let alone overcentralising. It isn't used that much, and for good reason. Of the few I've encountered, all have been either running specs or scarf (not surprising, as the only other viable option is fake tears - it has a shallow movepool even for an eveelution). You know there's a very powerful ice beam heading in your direction, whenever you see one. Considering it mostly carries HP fighting, bulky waters are always safe switch-ins. Though resilient, Glaceon will still go down to super-effective attacks rather quickly, and with mono-ice typing, it'll often find itself facing one
 
phalanx said:
getting sick of miltank, have to sleep it or taunt it otherwise its bodyslam (take 20-30% damage) repeat, milk drink, repeat scenario 1, if some sort of burn/para happens it uses heal bell... its hard to enjoy a match against this.
used nintails life orb + flamethrower and needed 2 NP to do 66%, its a bit too bulky.
Click to expand...
I couldn't kill a Miltank I faced in OU - albeit with my UUish team - earlier, for that reason (I had to keep trying to Calm Mind up with Clefable and I got lucky with a crit Ice Beam after BS para haxed all of my pokemon. it heal belled my weezing's will-o-wisps)
I do play UU and I have to say, Miltank is very difficult to kill. I remember someone calling it the Physical Blissey once. Even with Scrappy it shrugs off weaker special hits...I don't play enough to say whether it's TOO bulky though.
 
i tried hitmonlee mach punch (was unsure of speed differance, and i had already took 62% from one body slam) and did 33%, miltank is definatly something that needs looking at.
hell i remember facing it in G/S in the gym, was a pain in the ass there.
 
Speaking of all the stuff that needs to get moved up to BL again, what about Hitmonlee? I don't think I need to name why Hitmonlee is so good to anyone that has played UU for over a week, so why is there no talk about him? People complain about the new ones that have been moved from BL, but what about the old death stars of UU?
 
Salem1 said:
Speaking of all the stuff that needs to get moved up to BL again, what about Hitmonlee? I don't think I need to name why Hitmonlee is so good to anyone that has played UU for over a week, so why is there no talk about him? People complain about the new ones that have been moved from BL, but what about the old death stars of UU?
Click to expand...

Because Hitmonlee is predictable and easy to wall?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top