Skymin Discussion Thread

Skymin is on every team i face, along with Scizor and Heatran. -_-

Speaking of Scizor, you can take out its #1 counter Heatran with a quick U-turn to Scarftrio. Gotta love it.
 
Kagster123 said:
Skymin is on every team i face, along with Scizor and Heatran. -_-

Speaking of Scizor, you can take out its #1 counter Heatran with a quick U-turn to Scarftrio. Gotta love it.
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I've seen quite alot of teams without heatran, can't argue about skymin though, everyone wants to try it out.
 
I haven't been playing too much thanks to school and work, but really, as threatening as I thought it would be, so far I haven't had many problems with Skymin. However, people are still trying it out. As people get used to the metagame changes and stop using them simply for shits and giggles, we'll see how everything stacks up in the end.
 
yachechomp is not the same as yache-skymin, because yachechomp not only halved it's ice weakness, but all it had to worry about afterwards was STAB dragon moves (garchomp was the fastest OU dragon so no worries there).

skymin, even if it halves its ice weakness, still has to worry about fire, rock, flying (sorta), and poison (not really). it doesn't have the defenses of garchomp, so pretty much any random SE attack still OHKOs it if it's faster.
 
Arash said:
it doesn't have the defenses of garchomp, so pretty much any random SE attack still OHKOs it if it's faster.
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It does however, have roughly the same defenses as a Salamence and i'm sure we generally don't consider Salamence to be weak defensively.
 
Arash said:
yachechomp is not the same as yache-skymin, because yachechomp not only halved it's ice weakness
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While this is kinda true, Maniac made the point very well, Salamence has these similar defences and YacheMence is actually very viable.

Granted Skymin has more weaknesses, but is's usually easy to predict these and switch out before unecessary damage is done.
 
Maniaclyrasist said:
It does however, have roughly the same defenses as a Salamence and i'm sure we generally don't consider Salamence to be weak defensively.
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Actually Salamence with 4HP, no defensive evs, LO and no Roost is a pretty defensive frail pokemon. On top of SR and sand, any type of stray attack will really be hampering it. Take off intimidate on top of that, and you're not looking at a very tough pokemon-- that's sweeper skymin.

Now, you give skymin a bunch of HP and leech seed and we're talking about a different beast most likely, but for the most part, it's pretty damn frail.
 
Olie said:
Granted Skymin has more weaknesses, but is's usually easy to predict these and switch out before unecessary damage is done.
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This may be true. However, you forgot to take into account that the greater amount of weaknesses makes it extremely hard to switch in again, especially with Stealth Rock. Yes, you can bring it in on a revenge-kill, but it's not as if the opponent can't switch out of Skymin either, and can bring in something to force Skymin out. This will then force Skymin to have the struggle of switching in again. If people are using the Life Orb variant of Skymin, that makes Skymin's life even harder to preserve.
 
yikes.

I knew that Sky Shaymin would be a decent sweeper but i hadnt really thought about just how many things it can bring down.

That thing will be an absolute monster with seed flare.

Skymin may well be placed in the Über tier.

also now that it has seed bomb swords dancing seems like a much more viable strategy for its land form (and celebi)
 
I am all for testing Shaymin-s further. I have not been too impressed when using it, nor when facing it, with it's "uberness" or whatever. I'm quite certain this is because "everyone" is running at least two counters to it. Observing it only in this environment does not provide enough information towards the forming of an answer being the subject to thwart the questioning of it being overcentralizing or just plain uber.

It is my belief that any pokemon not being obviously uber through base stats or typing/movepool (hay darkrai and mew) should be properly tested at an appropiate time. The time for Shaymin-s is A.S.A.P. So let's just test it now and not just bump it off into ubers without further ado.

On the use of it: what about the subseeder-set with these Evs instead:
4 HP/252 Spe/252 SpAtk?
With this it can subseed the counters that don't favour this and still be able to do a great deal of damage with SF and AS on whoever not resisting it. And it will still have the greatest chance hax almost anyone. This is the set that has worked best for me at the least.
 
From what I've seen so far, this whole game revolves around Heatran, and relatedly is heavy on the 3 big S-threats: Scizor, Salamence, and Shaymin.

The thing is that suspect thread was already headed in this direction-- shaymin just took up the spot that Celebi would have filled. The difference between this metagame and the previous, was that all the top offensive threats just have ridiculously good synergy together.

Garchomp, Lucario, Gengar and Gyarados, once the major threats, didn't really have the synergy to just be tossed carelessly on the same team. This is different from what we're seeing now.

Like I said: It's all about Heatran. Heatran is the counter everyone pacts to deal with both Shaymin and Scizor (when you feel you can predict easily). Heatran also has the Ice, Fire, Dragon and Steel resists to support and play an excellent teammate to Salamence, Scizor and Shaymin. Heatran can even be a last fail-safe to stop a salamence sweep (if it's locked into outrage). Here's another important note: Heatran is often the best switch into Heatran. With this, no one can have a team without heatran. >.>

Now let's look at the surrounding pokemon:

Shaymin, Salamence (and the ever present Zapdos/Gyarados) have the ground/fight resist that synergizes them even better with Heatran. Moreover, with Substitute/Dragon Dance respectively, they pose major set-up threats against a Heatran stuck in Earth Power. In Shaymin/Salamence's case (and maybe shaymin especially) they also have the water resist needed to back heatran up, and Shaymin might be the best answer offensive teams have ever got to Bulky Water types (who even now give issues to a team dependant on Salamence/Tyranitar/Scizor (metagross)/Heatran).

Bullet Punch Scizor was going to be a top threat no matter what, and its presence only secures this heatran-central metagame even more. Scizor is not only countered by Heatran, but it is also related to Salamence and Shaymin-- resisting their STAB moves and providing a threat to them if they're weakened (lol STAB-Technician-Bullet Punch).

Salamence/Shaymin/Scizor as the top threats punctuates the necessity of steel types in general, resisting the STAB moves of all 3 and the ice moves most feared by Salamence/Shaymin. The banning of Garchomp, OU's formerly top Earthquake user does not hurt either. (lol, magnezone)

Other pokemon: Bulky Water use is going up even more to deal with the general offensive trend, but now have to watch out for shaymin (quite frankly, I love the bugger if only for this purpose). Levitators/flyers are even more integral in this heatran-centric mentality (now that they can actually defeat the ground using threat who's name is not "garchomp").

Conclusion: Heatran's the man! I don't think I remember OU's top sweepers having as much Synergy as they do now. Salamence/Shaymin/Scizor/Heatran are not only the top threats, they also unfortunately counter each other and fit on the same team really well. Meaning this OU reminds me more of rock-paper-scizors than any before. >.>

Salamence / Shaymin / Scizor / Heatran / Bulky Water (or Ground) / Lead Pokemon (azelf, deoxys, gengar, tyranitar zapdos)

there! team done! lol

About Shaymin though: The metagame was going this way even before Shaymin hit the stage. Heatran was bound to become king of the metagame not only because of its own incredible abilities, but synergy the same relationships with Scizor/Salamence and Celebi were bound to create this same mentality. Shaymin only out an extra milimeter on the exclamation point in my opinion.
 
What's funny, Chou, is that SkarmBliss counters that generic team almost to a T. It's like things have reverted so far to the point where generic teams are countered by generic wall combinations, and that's all that even exists anymore. I personally don't think Skymin is much of a huge threat, but it has made the metagame more boring than it previously was.
 
Calciphoce-- I've been running such a team, and it does indeed have issues with Skarmbliss (except that I run a boah-esque ttar that kills them). Though Salamence can Fire Blast Skarm, and Brick Break can screw Blissey (if you're good at predicting or you have it on your DD mence for some reason). I was really hoping Heatran would get Superpower, but no such luck. :P

Let's drink to the return of Skarmbliss and Boah!! lol
 
I find Cresselia and Mamoswine to be perfectly capable of neuturing that generic 4. Scizor is left as the only problem but even he is relatively easy to take down as long as your team isn't made of flimsy paper-like Pokemon.
Heatran, Skymin and Salamence all loathe Thunder Wave. They really hate it. Mamoswine can Ice Shard Skymin and Salamence to death easily, and if Tran is paralyzed, it can come in and give it a look of "Yeah, whatchu gonna do now huh?". Leaves Scizor, who isn't as threatening as people make it up to be - Sure a 80 (Or was it 90?) BP Priority move coming from that attack hurts, but its still not as if Salamence just got priority on his Outrage.
 
It looks like more players will put Choice scarf just to outspeed Shaymin. Once you paralyze Shaymin, theres really nothing she could do and theres your chance to outspeed her. Shes just like Deoxys- S but with a different type and moveset. Her defense and special defense are poor and her HP is average. o its not like she can take hits like the other pokemon can.
 
Has anyone noticed that Deoxys-E suddenly lowered in usage?
maybe it was a few pages back don't know

Probably Skymin has taken Deoxys-E place as a fast lategamesweeper and with Trick leads far more common Dual screen seems to become rare as well
 
Mien. said:
Has anyone noticed that Deoxys-E suddenly lowered in usage?
maybe it was a few pages back don't know

Probably Skymin has taken Deoxys-E place as a fast lategamesweeper and with Trick leads far more common Dual screen seems to become rare as well
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I've noticed this too, I haven't seen ANY of them since the Platinum changes were put in place (though I don't battle as much as most people).

I think part of it is that so many people are using the Skymin/Heatran/Scizor sort of combination and there's just no room for him on the team? I'm sure the Trick leads are causing problems for Deoxys as well.

I have a feeling that he'll rise back in usage once the novelty of all these new forms and movesets wear off...after all, Deoxys didn't really get anything new to play with.
 
imo, there's still enough room in the standard offensive team for deoxys-- but yeah, who wants to run double-screen deoxys with trick all over the place? I have seen a few offensive deoxys left though.
 
Saying that Mamoswine handles the "Big 4" well doesn't mean they aren't super powerful. It's true that Skymin/Heatran/Salamence/Scizor doesn't handle Mamoswine well but many single pokemon do handle him, such as Skarmory or Bronzong. Everytime mamo comes out one can switch to skarm and the mamo swtiches to heatran and skarm switches to mence/tran etc...

Mamoswine does nothing to reduce overcentralization. The presence of these "Big 4" offensive sweeping threats means that their few counters usage will go up too.

That isn't to say that a team made of Heatran/Salamence/Skymin/Scizor/Skarmory/Mamoswine is unstoppable, but it will be quite difficult to handle especially if you consider that 5 of those pokes can wear down even the things that can beat them and skarm can spike/SR. The fact that one team can be so freaking threatening (even if that threat can be handled) is just wild.

That's a lot of rambling. What I'm trying to say is:

It seems that the metagame is becoming not about eliminating whatever pokemon your opponents have so that you can set up a sweep, but about eliminating your opponents Mamoswine or your opponents Heatran. The pokemon that are rising to the top seem to comprise an aresenal which allows a team carrying them to handle anything until it loses one of it's links. I've seen a bunch of RMTs using ScarfTrio solely to kill heatran beacause once heatran is gone heatran or shaymin or scizor is open for a sweep (unless mamo or cress comes along). The point is that an entire pokemon is dedicated to one threat because natural team synergy is so huge that it almost requires a trapper or an especially good prediction to break the switching war. (on a side note, i expect to see spinning regain popularity both because it will greatly aid the new sweepers and because suicide SR leads can't put the rocks back up.

Wow my simple summary was longer than my original ramble. I guess I'm a rambler.
 
scarftrio-- that's fucking brilliant. I'm going to go start running scarftrio. lolz

So I think will look like this:

(Expendable lead who suckers out Heatran exp: typhlosion) / Heatran / salamence / shaymin / scizor / scarftrio

lol
 
Umm... Just lead with scizor and uturn to scarf trio. Ive been doing it since November 07. I thought it was common....
 
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