Skymin Discussion Thread

Chou Toshio

Over9000
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Umm... Just lead with scizor and uturn to scarf trio. Ive been doing it since November 07. I thought it was common....
Only problem with that is that there are a number of lead pokemon who can beat scizor. >.>

Azelf can flamethrower it to death. Salamence will have it under intimidate and can fire blast it (or else predict your switch and just draco meteor/dance). Gyarados will wack you really hard, and lol at pretty much all your attacks. Bronzong will happily just continue setting up rocks. Not to mention lead Heatran. >.> Scizor just has crappy overall coverage when it comes to the "Jan Ken Po" of the first round.

With the exception of Tyranitar and Deoxys, Scizor can't stop the majority of leads from doing what they are planning to do imo.
 
Has anyone noticed that Deoxys-E suddenly lowered in usage?
maybe it was a few pages back don't know

Probably Skymin has taken Deoxys-E place as a fast lategamesweeper and with Trick leads far more common Dual screen seems to become rare as well
Indeed. I have seen hardly any Deoxys' recently.
 
Is there a point to HP Ice on shaymin? Doesn't air slash 2HKO dragons? As it says for moltres in the analysis on it and shaymin has higher spa so I assume.
 
scarftrio-- that's fucking brilliant. I'm going to go start running scarftrio. lolz

So I think will look like this:

(Expendable lead who suckers out Heatran exp: typhlosion) / Heatran / salamence / shaymin / scizor / scarftrio

lol
I find than an even better way of handling heatran (well, basically everything not bulky and slower than scarftrio) is a subpassing celebi. Easy to switch in, commonly lures in Heracross or Heatran. Sub on the switch, pass to Dugtrio, doesn't matter if they hit before the BP or not, Trio always gets a safe switch in and sure kill for the low price of 25% of Celebi's HP. I've been running Grass Knot/Sub/BP/Recover on my celebi to great effect.
 
Is there a point to HP Ice on shaymin? Doesn't air slash 2HKO dragons? As it says for moltres in the analysis on it and shaymin has higher spa so I assume.
Well, there's Zapdos and Crobat. And sometimes you can't be happy with a 2HKO, like against a DDMence.

I still think Leech Seed is the better option, though.
 
regarding deoxys-e, I've actually seen a fair few running around. Most are running some sort of sash'ed stealth rock/taunt/spikes/filler set, although I have seen a couple of offensive ones. I guess the fact that one of the main threats in the game can OHKO it with a priority move or pursuit it is a bit of a downer.
 
So yesterday I returned to playing OU for the first time in over 6 months to try out the new stuff from Platinum. After about 30-40 battles that I have played so far, I have yet to have been at all threatened by Shaymin-S, although I do use Registeel and Crobat on the same team. Most of them use the Substitute + 3 attacks set, which is very easy to handle as it doesn't hit particularly had and has no recovery outside Leftovers, with Substitute only aggravating the problem. Once Stealth Rock goes down the opponent is suddenly afraid to bring it in again as its durability is cut even more. Not impressed at all so far, but it's early days so I'll reserve my judgment until people get better at using it.

As far as Pokemon that I've used are concerned, Rotom-H and Crobat have proven to be very effective, the former being an excellent counter to Scizor, Adamant Luke and bulky Grounds in particular. Most people like to blindly switch Scarf Heatran into it hoping for a boost, whilst I often laugh as they get paralyzed from Discharge, leaving them deadweight. Even if I don't, Vaporeon walls it with ridiculous ease as always. Crobat is an excellent counter to most Shaymin-S, and is no longer walled by a large number of Steel types thanks to Heat Wave. Can still be very annoying to defensive Pokemon too with Taunt + Roost. I love it personally.

And now for my favorite addition. Trick / Flame Orb CM Clefable is absolutely godly in mid to late-game, and has won me countless matches so far. Pokemon that could previously come in and set up easily such as Tyranitar, Weavile and Scizor are now horribly screwed over by this nasty strategy. If they only have one strong physical attacker that isn't Fire type or has Guts, Clefable has it easy for the most part, and can attempt to sweep with Calm Mind + Ice Beam, using Softboiled whenever necessary. Not the easiest thing to pull off, but so incredibly satisfying when you do.
 
Agreeing that Crobat is really, really helpful against Shaymin-S. I'm running one on a stall-based team, and I haven't had any real problems with it. Also, Specs variants seem to be all but gone, they're all carrying Substitute :(
 
I may have just joined Smogon but I know a hell lot of competitive.

Registeel is not a counter to Skymin. I ran some calcs a while ago and
Registeel can be countered by Skymin. Registeel takes about 55-46% percent
from Specsed Earth Power. Which means that Stealth Rock/Spikes support is
almost a 100% 2HKO.

Regice however is not. It takes easily 2 Seed Flares and Proceeds to OHKO it
with STAB Ice Beam.

This sounds pretty crazy, but a Jolteon@Scarf(lolwut?) will safely switch in on
Skymin and OHKOs it with HP Ice. Yes, sounds crap but at least it's a counter.
It needs to have 252 hp/spdef to take about 50%.

A defensive Deoxys-S can possibly also safely switch in and pose an immediate threat.
I am not sure however, 50 base HP seems a bit too low.
 
Registeel is not a counter to Skymin. I ran some calcs a while ago and
Registeel can be countered by Skymin. Registeel takes about 55-46% percent
from Specsed Earth Power. Which means that Stealth Rock/Spikes support is
almost a 100% 2HKO.
If you switch in Registeel and it takes like 55%, isn't that Skymin is Specs'd and you should get the fuck out and switch a Flying-type/Levitator?

Registeel counters and counters well all other versions of Skymin that are not Subseed, and I'm telling this not from theorymon, but from experience.
 
If you switch in Registeel and it takes like 55%, isn't that Skymin is Specs'd and you should get the fuck out and switch a Flying-type/Levitator?

Registeel counters and counters well all other versions of Skymin that are not Subseed, and I'm telling this not from theorymon, but from experience.
Hmm... You got a point there.
Also, using HP[Fire] is a bad idea. Other Skymin outspeed you with HP[Ice].
Unless there's an IV combination where Fire stays at 70 and doesn't lower
speed.
 

Jumpman16

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This sounds pretty crazy, but a Jolteon@Scarf(lolwut?) will safely switch in on
Skymin and OHKOs it with HP Ice. Yes, sounds crap but at least it's a counter.
It needs to have 252 hp/spdef to take about 50%.
Modest, 372 SpA Skymin using a Choice Specs Seed Flare/Earth Power on a 334HP/317SpD (max/max) Calm Jolteon: 68-80%
Calm, 257 SpA (4EVs, 252HP/252SpD EVs) Jolteon using HP Ice on a 342HP/186SpD (4EVs/min) Modest Skymin: 82-97%

besides the fact that the notion of taking 68-80% on the switch from half of a pokemon's moves by definition means that you are not a counter, even with the most extreme "pokemon beats pokemon with move" argument that 252HP/252SpD Calm is, this is all assuming skymin is dumb enough to stay in on a pokemon that has higher base speed than it anyway...which it could actually do since this Jolteon would be uncoincidentally incapable of OHKOing a 100% HP Skymin because of Jolt's ridiculous EV spread (and if you assume SR damage on my end I can do so on yours so spare me that "argument" lol)

"it's crazy but it just might work!" doesn't apply here, since Jolteon needs 317 SpA to guarantee the OHKO on Skymin, which means that it can only have 12 HP EVs, which means that:

Modest, 372 SpA Skymin using a Choice Specs Seed Flare/Earth Power on a 274HP/317SpD (12EVs/max) Calm Jolteon: 83-98%

so yeah, that's just "for some numbers" but i guess i've been involved with the damage formula enough to know when even ridiculous pokemon beats pokemon with move stuff doesn't fly
 
Hmm... You got a point there.
Also, using HP[Fire] is a bad idea. Other Skymin outspeed you with HP[Ice].
Unless there's an IV combination where Fire stays at 70 and doesn't lower
speed.
No, you can't get HP Fire 70 with a speed IV of 31, that's exactly way I prefer HP Ice on Skymin for it to tie with other Skymin or outspeed HP Fire ones.

For HP Fire, all steels except Bronzong and Skarmory can be hit with Earth Power, so unless you're worried about those just stick with HP Ice.
 
I actually prefer running hp fire, due to the ridiculous number of Bronzongs popping up all over the place. Trying to win a speed tie vs. another Skymin is not really my cup of tea.
 
hp fire is really only "useful" for forry as scizor will still dent you with lo bullet punch, bronzong will survive and boom or gb, sarm will survive and bb/dp etc etc
plus the speed!

edit: yeah exactly
 
Foretress can be taken down by Air Slash. Most of the time, 2 slashes and it'll go down. Flinch = Boom. Same with Scizor. Sometimes it can be taken down by 1 Air Slash.
 

JabbaTheGriffin

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I'm a personal fan of Hp Fire, i've found it extremely useful actually. Seed Flare -2 drop + Hp fire (with lo) usually kills zong. flinch + hp fire usually kills skarmory and the ohko on scizor is extremely valuable. i don't find myself in a necessary 1v1 skymin situation too often so i don't mind losing the tie.
 
So what methods have everyone been using to counter this thing?

I've been running a Registeel as my overall Special wall.
 
I use Celebi, provided flinchax with Air Slash doesn't occur. Heatran revenge kills. Mamoswine and Weavile also revenge kill with Ice Shard.
 
What you mean "provided flinchax with Air Slash doesn't occur."? You can't prevent Flinch without Inner Focus, which Celebi does not have.
 
I use Bronzong and forretteress in tandem, switching out between the two to shut down leech seed and killing it with gyro ball. Blissey can also survive long enough to hit it with Toxic, which Skymin does not enjoy.
 
I use Bronzong and forretteress in tandem, switching out between the two to shut down leech seed and killing it with gyro ball. Blissey can also survive long enough to hit it with Toxic, which Skymin does not enjoy.
The moveset is switchable between LeechSeed/HP Fire. Then YacheBerry/Leftovers.

I'll agree that those guys can try forcing a switch from Shaymin-S, but let's not forget Serene Grace + AirSlash & Seed Flare.
 

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