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Skymin Discussion Thread
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I dont see many specs mins to come into the metagame. The metagame has already become faster with Deoxys-S in OU and with all new counters being on teams (heatran,mamoswine,weavile,Blissey,etc.) Specs min won't be as reliable. SubSeed min will definately take bliss's title away. Aerodactyl and Typloshion are some BL counters for specs min and possibly subseed min. Soon, there is only going to be ScarfTran on every teams and conflict between both will be in almost every battle which will definately kill the metagame. Deoxys-S may be able to do things too with Icebeam. scizor's quick attack after an SD OHKOs I'm pretty sure too, but hey :/
@Lemmiwinks MkII
As I said, it looks good on paper.
I'm not saying Skymin isn't dangerous - it can deal a lot of damage if you're not prepared for it and those carrying HP Ice have given me problems - but I currently don't think it's even close to living up to the hype.
As I said, it looks good on paper.
I'm not saying Skymin isn't dangerous - it can deal a lot of damage if you're not prepared for it and those carrying HP Ice have given me problems - but I currently don't think it's even close to living up to the hype.
You do know that Scizor has Bullet Punch now, right? Also Bullet Punch gets stab so it is notably more powerful than quick attack.
Skymin, even without hax, can do terrible damage to anything. For the most part, sweepers that use Choice Scarf can't OHKO it and get killed in the process. If it gets behind a sub, its impossible to revenge kill. Leech Seed can rip through Pokemon, and with Serene Grace, you either flinch or get drained of HP and SpDef at the same time.
And while Heatran is a decent counter, Skymin CAN learn Earth Power. Behind a sub, Heatran is useless.
If you give it HP Dragon in ubers, it can take down half of them. Its base attack hits 335, enough to make a decent mixed sweeper too, even with a limited physical movepool.
If Skymin with full special EVs attacks a normal bulky Kyogre set without any stat increasements, it does on average 335 damage. Now, I think that sounds uber. It tanks through Groudon and Manaphy, and most other Ubers still fall to the SpDef lower. On an Arceus with max HP and Special Defense, if the first Seed Flare lowers its special defense, its a 2HKO.
Now THAT, is uber.
And while Heatran is a decent counter, Skymin CAN learn Earth Power. Behind a sub, Heatran is useless.
If you give it HP Dragon in ubers, it can take down half of them. Its base attack hits 335, enough to make a decent mixed sweeper too, even with a limited physical movepool.
If Skymin with full special EVs attacks a normal bulky Kyogre set without any stat increasements, it does on average 335 damage. Now, I think that sounds uber. It tanks through Groudon and Manaphy, and most other Ubers still fall to the SpDef lower. On an Arceus with max HP and Special Defense, if the first Seed Flare lowers its special defense, its a 2HKO.
Now THAT, is uber.
The only problem with skymin is when it gets behind a sub, because then you have to sacrifice at least one of your team. Overall, pretty much everything that was true for garchomp is true for skymin (SD = sub), and skymin doesn't need to use a yache berry.
Overall, if you think that garchomp was UBER, then skymin is uber.
Overall, if you think that garchomp was UBER, then skymin is uber.
Have you actually tried killing Skymin with a Scarfer? It's really not that hard. Just use a move that's super effective on it and it'll either be OHKOed or be very close to it. If you've been using neutral moves against it, then of course it'll be very hard to OHKO.
If it gets behind a sub, of course it's impossible to revenge kill. That goes for anything. What's your point?
Also, if Skymin is subseeding, he's going to be very hard-pressed to give the opponent both a special defense drop and a flinch, since it's really not hard to break his sub. It'll require you to hit them on the switch with Seed Flare, get the Special Defense drop, and then somehow find time to use Air Slash.
If something is behind a sub, that helps them take on a lot of their counters. You can't always assume that it will be behind a sub, because it's really only able to set up a sub by forcing a switch. It's extremely hard for the thing to set up a sub otherwise.
Uhh wow, this just proved that you have no idea what you're talking about. HP Dragon? I'm sorry, but that is just sad.
First off, a pokemon's ability to perform in ubers doesn't matter when talking about OU status. Second off, why don't you tell us what attack Skymin is using against Kyogre, and what the "standard bulky Kyogre" is? If Skymin is using Seed Flare, then "no shit" it does a lot of damage. Also, 335 damage isn't even a OHKO, so that's still not impressive.
Groudon and Manaphy eh? Oh wait, those are two pokemon that are weak to Seed Flare! Of course it's going to beat them. Now, about your Arceus comment...no one is going to run an Arceus like that when there's Blissey around. The standard Arceus has 252 HP/252 Atk, and it'll murder Skymin with Extremespeed in the blink of an eye.
Nice try, but you honestly aren't convincing anyone that Skymin is uber with that kind of post.
Umm, it's been stated several times that crap like this is extremely stupid to post. Don't tell people what they think, people can think for themselves. Also, how in the hell would a sub = a SD? Sure, Sub can secure you 1 kill, but after that sub is broken, then Skymin needs to set it up again. With Garchomp, it can Swords Dance and sweep the opponent's team without having to set it up again if he gets hit.
I keep seeing these Skymins coming out in the very first couple moves of a game, and it's silly. Skymin should be used as a late game sweeper, once the dedicated counters to him are dead or incapacitated. My answer to Skymin is Muk, and kind of Frosslass, once they are gone or not able to switch in I'm pretty much screwed.
People should try using it as a late-game sweeper.
People should try using it as a late-game sweeper.
If Skymin switches in on you and you don't have a Super Effective move available than your forced to attack or switch. A Switch giving it a free term to take a shot at lowering your Sp. Def or Subing. No ones going to switch it in if it knows it's going to get killed. It's like the poster below you says, it's a very efficient late game sweeper.
And if your very close to killing it than it has the oppertunity to faint you or also get very close to it.
Plus how many things are regularily scarfed or do you want to start scarfing so you can kill Skymin.
Because little is faster than it. Skymin gets 2 free moves on you, and if you are fast enough to revenge kill it sufficiently than its impressive base HP might hurt your chances. With or without Leech Seed in effect.
Well its unlikely you'll get to use all four depending on how long your oponent gives you to set up (don't overestimate some people).
Somehow find time to use Air Slash? Even without a Sub up, you can choose to use Seed Flare on the switch and then use Air Slash on the next turn. Not very many things outspeed base 127 speed. The Sub can be set up when the 80% chance of lowering Sp. Def screws your opponents over.
Yes true but debates are always about the what ifs as much as they are about facts. And only timid Scarftran outspeeds it anyways. (I believe I'm too tired to check)
No idea what I'm talking about? Try again, it's not Dragon Pulse but this is Ubers not OU, it'd be a stupid choice in OU. In Ubers there arn't as many Dragon/Flying or Ground pokes running around. Dragon covers Palkia and does the same to the Lati's and Giratina as HP Ice would.
What attack would Skymin use against Kyogre? Exactly Seed Flare, and I don't know exactly how much Aura Sphere does to Blissey buts its not that much. 335 is alot and there's no shame in 2HKOing something of Kyogre status.
And I know there effectivness in Ubers doesn't affect their play in OU. But during the Garchomp debates "Garchomp would be killed in Ubers," was one of the common arguments. (Not saying its a good one)
That was just to show that Skymin could hold his own in Ubers.
I don't run standards much, I like to bring some creativity to the game if I can, Arceus can do alot of things. Extremespeed would probabley murder Skymin but it can murder alot of things.
Well if Manaphy and Groundon are weak to Seed Flare, guess that makes it a counter for them eh, or have you forgotten your earlier comment where you said if neutral attacks were used then "of course it'll be very hard to OHKO." Ya Same goes here, I'm not going to Air Slash a Groundon but maybe that's just me.
Nice try at making yourself feel superior, this comment was uneeded, I was just wrapping up the point. (Not saying this was really needed but I couldn't break the commenting trend here)
Skymin at least deserves to be Suspect Tested, which it may already be, being tested. I don't really know, sorry.
A neutral Seed Flare deals more damage to Palkia than a SE HP Dragon (Try 120 x STAB = 180 Vs 70 x SE = 140). Hidden Power Ice has the advanatge of hitting Rayquaza harder who would otherwise resist Seed Flare and to a lesser extent, Garchomp. Really, HP Ice is much better
Skymin counters
This post is dedicated to discussing the effectiveness of Skymin's counters. SR is taken into account with all counters, as it is likely to be in play due to Rapid Spin being less common and Rotom's forms proving to be common and effective anti-spinners.
Crobat against Specs Skymin - read blasphmey1's post.
Crobat against Subseed Skymin - reliable, because Crobat can swap in as Skymin uses Air Slash or Sub, and Crobat can survive an Air Slash with SR damage and OHKO back with Brave Bird. But Brave Bird recoil will kill Crobat in such a case.
A Calm Zapdos with max Hlth and SpcDef EVs survives two Specs Skymin Seed Flares, with a SpcDef Drop from the first hit, if SR is not in play. Zapdos is not a reliable Specs Skymin counter.
Zapdos with Leftovers or Scarf should be comfortable against Subseed Skymin unless it gets flinched by Air Slash (not tested). Zapdos definitely works if it swaps in when Skymin does not have a sub up.
Registeel can take Skymin's hits comfortably. However, Magnezone can be sent in on him (and Registeel will probably not Earthquake if Magnezone has not been revealed in the battle yet). Magnezone beats Registeel after Magnet Rising if he does not get hit by Thunderwave. If Registeel has Rest and Sleep Talk, after sleeping, he is not able to reliably counter Skymin until he wakes up (Magnezone can swap out to something threating like Mamoswine or SD LO Scizor with Brick Break/Superpower).
Bronzong is a worse Registeel but with Hypnosis instead of Thunderwave. Furthermore, a Bronzong is very unlikely to have both HP Ice and Earthquake. Gyro Ball gets stalled out by Subseed Skymin.
Blissey - read previous posts by me and IggyBot.
Dragonite with no SpcDef or Hlth EVs always gets 2HOKed by Specs Air Slash, with or without SR damage. Scarfnite can swap in and survive any hit but HP Ice and OHKO Skymin with no Hlth or SpcDef Evs with Ice Beam and no SpcAtt EVs, neutral nature. Dragonite with SpcAtt EVs can OHKO any Skymin with Ice Beam. Outrage on 252 Att EVs, Jolly Scarfnite (Adamant nite is slower than Timid Skymin) does 256-301 (278.88 average) with Outrage. Skymin needs SR damage to be OHKOed (which may be healed off by Leftovers).
In short, Scarfnite needs Ice Beam to be a reliable Skymin counter (and a speed boosting nature with Spc Att EVs)
Regice should work as long as Air Slash does not flinch on any Skymin (not tested).
Timid Scarfran can take any of Skymin's hits apart from Earth Power. He does not fear Magnezone. He is a reliable counter, unless the Skymin has a Sub up and knows Earthpower (which is unlikely).
Skarmory with SpcDef and Hlth EVs can tank Specs Skymin's attacks, even with a SpcDef drop (Impish Skarm with 252 SpcDef EVs, takes 69-81 (75.05 average) from Specs Seed Flare) and an Air Slash flinch and be a threat with Drill Peck and Brave Bird, but he dies horribly to Magnezone unless he has Shed Shell. Without the Shed Shell, he can only Whirlwind Subseed Skymin away, as without the Leftovers, Leech Seed wears him down too much (Brave Bird recoil wears him down too much even if Skarm has Leftovers). This assumes that Skarm swaps in to Skymin as she uses Sub. So Skarm only reliably counters Specs Skymin with a Shed Shell. He can only reliably phaze Subseed Skymin.
To conclude, Timid Scarfran, Regice (probably) and Scarfnite with Ice Beam (who may get worn done by repeated switching with SR damage) are the only reliable Skymin counters (both Specs and Subseed) (assuming the Skymin has a Magnezone ally).
If one of these is not on your team, you may have to sacrifice a pokemon in order to Ice Shard Skymin (who, shown by how hard it is to counter Skymin, does not need a Yache Berry, unlike Garchomp. But if she does have one, the Ice Shard may not KO.)
This post is dedicated to discussing the effectiveness of Skymin's counters. SR is taken into account with all counters, as it is likely to be in play due to Rapid Spin being less common and Rotom's forms proving to be common and effective anti-spinners.
Crobat against Specs Skymin - read blasphmey1's post.
Crobat against Subseed Skymin - reliable, because Crobat can swap in as Skymin uses Air Slash or Sub, and Crobat can survive an Air Slash with SR damage and OHKO back with Brave Bird. But Brave Bird recoil will kill Crobat in such a case.
A Calm Zapdos with max Hlth and SpcDef EVs survives two Specs Skymin Seed Flares, with a SpcDef Drop from the first hit, if SR is not in play. Zapdos is not a reliable Specs Skymin counter.
Zapdos with Leftovers or Scarf should be comfortable against Subseed Skymin unless it gets flinched by Air Slash (not tested). Zapdos definitely works if it swaps in when Skymin does not have a sub up.
Registeel can take Skymin's hits comfortably. However, Magnezone can be sent in on him (and Registeel will probably not Earthquake if Magnezone has not been revealed in the battle yet). Magnezone beats Registeel after Magnet Rising if he does not get hit by Thunderwave. If Registeel has Rest and Sleep Talk, after sleeping, he is not able to reliably counter Skymin until he wakes up (Magnezone can swap out to something threating like Mamoswine or SD LO Scizor with Brick Break/Superpower).
Bronzong is a worse Registeel but with Hypnosis instead of Thunderwave. Furthermore, a Bronzong is very unlikely to have both HP Ice and Earthquake. Gyro Ball gets stalled out by Subseed Skymin.
Blissey - read previous posts by me and IggyBot.
Dragonite with no SpcDef or Hlth EVs always gets 2HOKed by Specs Air Slash, with or without SR damage. Scarfnite can swap in and survive any hit but HP Ice and OHKO Skymin with no Hlth or SpcDef Evs with Ice Beam and no SpcAtt EVs, neutral nature. Dragonite with SpcAtt EVs can OHKO any Skymin with Ice Beam. Outrage on 252 Att EVs, Jolly Scarfnite (Adamant nite is slower than Timid Skymin) does 256-301 (278.88 average) with Outrage. Skymin needs SR damage to be OHKOed (which may be healed off by Leftovers).
In short, Scarfnite needs Ice Beam to be a reliable Skymin counter (and a speed boosting nature with Spc Att EVs)
Regice should work as long as Air Slash does not flinch on any Skymin (not tested).
Timid Scarfran can take any of Skymin's hits apart from Earth Power. He does not fear Magnezone. He is a reliable counter, unless the Skymin has a Sub up and knows Earthpower (which is unlikely).
Skarmory with SpcDef and Hlth EVs can tank Specs Skymin's attacks, even with a SpcDef drop (Impish Skarm with 252 SpcDef EVs, takes 69-81 (75.05 average) from Specs Seed Flare) and an Air Slash flinch and be a threat with Drill Peck and Brave Bird, but he dies horribly to Magnezone unless he has Shed Shell. Without the Shed Shell, he can only Whirlwind Subseed Skymin away, as without the Leftovers, Leech Seed wears him down too much (Brave Bird recoil wears him down too much even if Skarm has Leftovers). This assumes that Skarm swaps in to Skymin as she uses Sub. So Skarm only reliably counters Specs Skymin with a Shed Shell. He can only reliably phaze Subseed Skymin.
To conclude, Timid Scarfran, Regice (probably) and Scarfnite with Ice Beam (who may get worn done by repeated switching with SR damage) are the only reliable Skymin counters (both Specs and Subseed) (assuming the Skymin has a Magnezone ally).
If one of these is not on your team, you may have to sacrifice a pokemon in order to Ice Shard Skymin (who, shown by how hard it is to counter Skymin, does not need a Yache Berry, unlike Garchomp. But if she does have one, the Ice Shard may not KO.)
I'm not saying its uncounterable together. I'm just saying the counter (Registeel) has a harder time countering Skymin due to Magnezone. The counter could be rendered useless if he lacks a specific move.
However, I agree that Focus Punch (and maybe Brick Break, Fire Punch and Thunderwave) can help the Registeel kill Magnezone and then continue its role at countering Skymin.
Correct! So for a skymin counter registeel you would need ice punch. And I'm not going to even regard magnezone since this is a skymin discussion, not a situational gameplay discussion
You have no idea what a counter is do you? First of all saying Scarf anything is a counter is ridiculous... why? All you need is a Scarf and a pokemon that can survive its attack. So here are a list of Scarfers that can "counter Skymin"
Tyhlosion
Entei
Heatran
Charizard
Magmortar
Togekiss
Articuno
Dragonite
Salamence
Heatran
Zapdos
Moltres
Thats enough to give you an idea... The common trend is the obvious stealth rock weakness but thats a product of most grass-resists.
Regice.. is NOT a reliable Skymin counter. Sub versions can do what they do best, and Specs Seed Flare will have the same effect on Regice that it has on Blissey.
Where you say crobat is a poor counter is beyond me.. since he has the best chance out of all you listed. He can come in on anything other than a Choice Specs HP Ice (which needs Stealth Rock to KO) and brave bird Skymin to its grave. Hell, it can roost in the face of a seed flare and still resist it.
Now Skymin isn't too hard to counter so I can't see it going to uber anytime soon.
Regice has Clear Body, so there will be no Special Defense drops for it.
On a 252 HP/252 SpD Regice with a +SDef nature:
Specs Seed Flare from a 252 SpA Skymin - 33.79% - 39.84%
Skymin is in a lot of trouble if Regice is of the Rest-talk variation, because then it can Rest off the SR damage and easily OHKO with Ice Beam through Sleep Talk, and it can take 2 hits to get through the sub with Ice Beam. It's not as reliable as Crobat, but it's still pretty good.
Um, a lot of things could Scarf to outrun Garchomp. Plus, there are Scarf Modest Shaymins that are quite deadly. Garchomp went to Uber, didn't he? Both of them can hold Yache Berry, and who said you have to keep the Shaymin in? All you need to do is switch out, find a chance to kill the Scarfer, and then you'll still get screwed by it.
Skymin doesn't nearly have the variably that chomp had, or SD, or the defenses. Not to mention stealth rock weakness
What about Metagross? He resists Seed Flare and Air Slash, and is able to retaliate with a super-effective Ice Punch. With the standard spread of 244 HP/ 252 ATK/ 12 SPE, Metagross can withstand a Specs Earth Power every time. Which means that Seed Flare is only a 3HKO, with Air Slash managing only a 4HKO, turning Flinchhax into a losing strategy. Even better is that Metagross resists SR and actually serves other functions on teams besides for a Skymin counter. Why hasn't it been mentioned before?
because Metagross is 2HKOed by earth power, meaning it switches in then dies the next turn.
Calcs come up with... if the Crobat has no HP or Special Defense, it survives with about 11% remaining. So it could revenge kill if everything goes normally.
Ok, this Im kind of throwing out there, but I like trying stuff out. So, for a Skymin counter we have
Mamoswine
Item:Choice Band
Ability:Snow Cloak
Ice Shard
Icicle Spear
Earthquake
Stone Edge
Nature:Adamant
EVs:252 HP, 252 Attack, 4 SpDef
Ok, well, its untested, but heres how Im thinking it works. Its a revenge killer, and has trouble with Specsmin, but hear me out. Icicle Spear is a move that can hit in between 2-5 times with 10 damage each time. If it hits 2 times, it destroys a Shaymin sub and do damage, 3, does a even more amount of damage, and 4-5, can kill depending on how many subs were used. It can survive only ONE no stat increase Seed Flare, Air Slash 3HKOs without flinch hax, and Earth Power 4HKOs. For the times it isnt under a substitute, Ice Shard deals An OHKO. The only big problem is how Specsmin can OHKO with a Seed Flare, but Ice Shard stops it cold.
Now consider this, Icicle Spears accuracy for each hit it 100. So, with no evasion changes, it could almost always kill. Any thoughts?
Ok, this Im kind of throwing out there, but I like trying stuff out. So, for a Skymin counter we have
Mamoswine
Item:Choice Band
Ability:Snow Cloak
Ice Shard
Icicle Spear
Earthquake
Stone Edge
Nature:Adamant
EVs:252 HP, 252 Attack, 4 SpDef
Ok, well, its untested, but heres how Im thinking it works. Its a revenge killer, and has trouble with Specsmin, but hear me out. Icicle Spear is a move that can hit in between 2-5 times with 10 damage each time. If it hits 2 times, it destroys a Shaymin sub and do damage, 3, does a even more amount of damage, and 4-5, can kill depending on how many subs were used. It can survive only ONE no stat increase Seed Flare, Air Slash 3HKOs without flinch hax, and Earth Power 4HKOs. For the times it isnt under a substitute, Ice Shard deals An OHKO. The only big problem is how Specsmin can OHKO with a Seed Flare, but Ice Shard stops it cold.
Now consider this, Icicle Spears accuracy for each hit it 100. So, with no evasion changes, it could almost always kill. Any thoughts?
(all crobat natures are neutral)
Modest Scarf HP Ice on 6/0 Crobat: 61.86% - 72.76%
Modest Scarf HP Ice on 80/0 Crobat: 58.31% - 68.58%
Modest Scarf HP Ice on 180/0 Crobat: 54.21% - 63.76%
Modest Scarf HP Ice on 252/0 Crobat: 51.60% - 60.70%
Modest Scarf HP Ice on 252/252 Crobat: 39.30% - 46.26%
Min spread to guarantee 3HKO assuming lefties no hail/ss or SR: 252/64
BTW, brave bird is not an OHKO w/o SR even w/ 252 Atk EV's no LO neutral nature
There might be a better spread, but this is what I found