The Ideal Lead

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Legacy Raider said:
This is one of the leads that I've been testing recently:

Lv 1 Smeargle @ Focus Sash
Hasty - Own Tempo
252 Atk, 252 Spe

- Spore
- Endeavor
- Extremespeed
- Stealth Rock

This Smeargle is extremely fun. It takes a good deal of prediction to use but with the right moves I can incapacitate most opposing leads and gain the advantage in the battle. It has a lot of difficulty with Substitute users and Lum Berry users, and you need a good sleep absorber for the Roserade leads, but apart from that it can give me the advantage in almost every battle.

I've been thinking about putting Encore / Snatch / Magic Coat over Extremespeed, just to deal with Sleep and Sub leads. Anyone got any opinions on whether I should, and if yes then with what?

EDIT: Oh and if the Focus Sash is intact, it makes a great revenge killer for Salamence locked in Outrage =).

LR.
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Abacus said:
I think you should put magic coat over stealth rock and shadow sneak over extreme speed. After an endeavor, you only need to do one damage to kill, so extreme-speed's extra damage is worthless, while shadow sneak's extra coverage is much more valuable. Magic coat seems much more useful than sr, unless you can snatch screens (I don't think so). Also, how on earth does this handle taunt leads?
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No, I think you've missed the point here. First of all, Taunt does not affect Endeavor, so if a lead Taunts me it will find itself at 12HP. Then the prompt switch to Scizor for a Pursuit / Bullet Punch.

Secondly, I have Stealth Rock because I can't afford a moveslot on the rest of my team. And also Smeargle gets them up quite consistently. Consider the following:

---
Opponent sends out Azelf.
I send out Smeargle.
Azelf uses Stealth Rock.
Smeargle uses Spore.

Opponent switches in non-ghost pokemon.
Smeargle uses Stealth Rock.

Non-ghost pokemon attacks.
Smeargle holds on with Focus Sash.
Smeargle uses Endeavor.

Smeargle uses Extremespeed.
Non-ghost pokemon faints.
---

But I am going to take you advice on changing Extremespeed. I had it left over from when I had a Lv100 Smeargle lead. Extremespeed doesn't affect Ghosts, Shadow Sneak doesn't affect Normal types - I am going to go with Bullet Punch, since nothing is immune to that.

I'm still not convinced about Magic Coat, since all it can do is reflect back Status moves, and I already have Spore for Statusing foes. But Snatch is starting to look extremely attractive now that I've read it can steal Screens and Substitutes.
 
I find the ideal starter needs to be capable of taking out or limiting threats that your team might have trouble handling.

With my current team, I have Forretress leading cause of my nasty MixApe weakness. Why? To set up a single Layer of Toxic Spikes ASAP so that, in the best case scenario, at least I can stall it out as it forces switches trhough my teammates, especially since I have two protect users that can take individual hits from it.
 
To me one of the ideal things that a lead must accomplish is a way to support your team fully. Whether its getting Stealth Rock out quickly, set up Reflect and Light Screen, or set up the weather leads are usually situational. Before they weren't taken as seriously in ADV; however, the advent of moveset combinations and tactics has changed this into a more niche outlook of leads. Overall if the main goal is to get Rain Dance out, then you should focus on Pokemon that have the capability of doing so.

I think I worded this right.
 
I think some of you are missing the point. This is not just a "hi this is my lead and it's good because it beats X" thread. How is your lead helping you deal with things it doesn't beat? Is it drawing attacks that can lead to free switches or a boost to other members (like in Stellar's RMT here)? And how is it supporting your team overall?
 
despite being far from an ideal, kecleon makes a pretty good lead.

@focus sash/lum
Careful
240 HP / 16 Atk / 252 SpD

fake out (/snatch)
stealth rock
magic coat
sucker punch


very utility kecleon which is good for lead because of its versatility and moderate bulk.

snatch and lum berry (despite magic coat) ended up being the better choices, but fake out still has its very useful...uses.

not being very scary in its own right, teams can generally support this kecleon with most fighting-immune,resistant switches being pretty capable. coming back in later to priotity kill low health dangerous foes is good, as is being an unmissed sacrifice late game.

either with the 'surpise' magic coat, stealth rock or the 'free switch' that its main weak provides it can really allow some form of momentum to be gained or removed from the opponent.

again not ideal, but adequate, color change can be also be fun.

i dont think the 'ideal lead' exists unfortunately.

lately though, scarfed uturners are good because sometimes being put on the defensive is the better option...
 
I pretty much agree with the definitions given in this thread about the purpose of a lead. Most importantly, it should always attempt to give you a slight and immediate advantage over your opponent. Normally I find that the best leads usually attempt to counter other common leads.. especially if they can OHKO your opponent's lead. This forces switches and best prevents opponents from setting up whatever their strategy is. Setting up Stealth Rock has been the trend for most leads, so attempting to hit hard rather than set up removes early residual damage and puts you in a better position in the long run. So in a way, it's as if you're setting up part of your strategy by preventing the opponent from doing his/hers. With Focus Sash being popular on SR leads, a move like Fake Out or an ability like Sandstream adds value to any pokemon you choose to lead with as this completely counteracts many common leads. So, ideally I'd like to be able to deal with Focus Sash, be able to threaten a OHKO, and avoid having to switch myself. Speed or bulk help with that last requirement. If my starter fits those 3 conditions, I'm in good shape and put the match slightly in my favor.
 
My personal favourite lead is this Metagross:

Metagross @ Lum Berry
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 204 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Def / 8 Spe
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Stealth Rock
- Explosion
- ThunderPunch / Bullet Punch
- Meteor Mash

It's a great lead that for me normally allows me to set up Stealth Rock, due to the fact that the opponent doesn't want to take the risk of a CB Metagross. I can then Explode, and I have Lum to prevent sleep nicely. It works wonders against the likes of Bronzong, as I can set up Stealth Rocks as they either Stealth Rock or Hypnosis. I can then Explode (or use ThunderPunch to get some damage onto it first), which allows me a free switch-in to X. The same with Skarmory if it comes in; even if I Explode and I am 6-5 down, I find that I have put their physical wall already low through my lead.

I'm not too worried should the opponent have a Focus Sash either. Timid 252 SpA Azelf manages 78.98% - 93.18% with Fire Blast, meaning I can always either set up Stealth Rock or Meteor Mash on it. (I don't Explode as Fire Blast might miss, Explosion would nullify the opportunity to take advantage). If they have a Focus Sash and I know they can Explode I would use a priority move or a Choice Scarfed Pokémon, if I know they cannot Explode I would bring in X to set up.

It works great against say, Anti-Lead Weavile too. I Stealth Rock turn one, but if they Taunt I would just Explode and bring in X to set up a sweep again, for the Weavile wouldn't have much offense going on. (Counter, Taunt, Fake Out, X).

I think we get an advantage by just using new things, new ideas and having a way around everything bar itself, until a new lead comes along with the same qualities but having a way around the thing that had a way around every popular lead at the time. As shown, mine personally either sets up Stealth Rock or Explodes to give a free switch to help try set up an early sweep. Most leads are Stealth Rockers now, if they Stealth Rock so will I. It's a bit of a game of cat and mouse, but I basically make them struggle to set up SR, if they do (without Taunting), I will too, putting pressure onto them.

I think the element of suprise is what makes good leads, instead of the "expected". Unfortunately, Metagross is kind of expected to do this role now. ]:
 
Personally, if I need an anti-lead Pokemon, I use Tyranitar. With a moveset of Crunch/Fire Punch/Thunderbolt/Substitute, it can shut down common leads like Gyarados, Gengar (to a lesser extent), Azelf and stop them from achieving their goals. It also draws out Pokemon like Bronzong and Metagross and other Pokemon that haven't been revealed yet.
 
I was trying this lead for a while on my gimmick offense team, it did ok :/

Lucario @ Choice Scarf
Adamant
Inner Focus
EV's: 252Atk / 252Spe / 6HP
~Close Combat
~Ice Punch
~Blaze Kick
~Crunch

Or something like this.
I made it to be able to defeat most common leads. Ice Punch for Yanmega and Zapdos, Blaze Kick for Metagross and Zong, Crunch for Azelf and Gengar. It was working quite OK, but Gyara leads were giving me a problem, I was thinking of replacing CC with t-punch. but then nothing for TTar :/
I dont think one lead is superior to all others, no matter which one you pick, some opposing lead will stop you cold.
 
Twash_Man said:
I think we get an advantage by just using new things, new ideas and having a way around everything bar itself, until a new lead comes along with the same qualities but having a way around the thing that had a way around every popular lead at the time.
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I agree with this segment I've highlighted in this quote entirely. It is our own innovative ideas we create ourselves and what we all catch upon from others as time goes on. It's all about keeping with the current trend; for those of you who don't know, Tangerine wrote up an interesting read based on trends. Basically, whatever currently catches everyones' attention, then becomes an established prospect we all deem worthy enough to use ourselves. This continues on through as time goes by.

Twash_Man said:
I think the element of suprise is what makes good leads, instead of the "expected".
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Yes, I agree; and it is those unorthadox, one-off leads that catch me off-guard and cost me matches.
 
Aha! This looks like quite a promising thread.

There are two general things I like to keep in mind with my leads and they are versatility and predictability.
  1. Predictability goes Punished - This pokémon should be able to do lots of things, not just limited to attack or something with minimal attack (ex. Bronzong, Forretress) and that screams, "Please set up on me!" You can just guess that two of their attack slots are at least some form of Spikes and Explosion. All you need to do is to switch to something that can kill it and take the Explosion if they do it on the switch. Even if they lay a form of Spikes down I'm usually able to KO that poké and I'm up 6-5.
  2. Plan for Everything - When I see something like Azelf I know it could be one of many sets. Since you only have a limited amount of information you have to best act on what you have. I personally like leading with Jirachi or Metagross and I usually attack or Trick. Many good teams have leads that carry Trick and will easily screw up their opponent's lead. I find the best way to deal with that is to have a Choice Trick user too. If you get Tricked some Choice item that you cannot make use of you can just Trick it onto something else later. With enough speed to outrun Skymin or base 130s you're in good shape. Its pretty obvious which pokémon can outrun Skymin, so if I see something that is potentially faster and would kill me in one hit (ex. Choice Scarf Heatran) I switch to something else.
  3. Useful not just at the Beginning - As stated earlier if I know you are going to explode I'm just going to switch to something that could take it. I like to have something that could potentially KO in mid or even late battle. By having Metagross be a Tricker/Physical Wall/Physical Sweeper/Revenge Killer it will most likely take a huge chunk out of the opponent's team.
  4. Team Telling is Bad - When I see Ninjask or Tyranitar led I instantly know that there's probably something to receive a Baton Pass or my opponent has a number of pokémon immune to Sandstream's damage. I now know what I need to do to pick that team apart later in battle. With that said I already have an advantage because I know my opponent's team better than they know mine.
  5. Make Switching Difficult for Opponents - If my opponent knows my lead can do a variety of things to really mess up their lead they might want to switch. Let's say they have an Azelf and do not want to be Meteor Mashed for hefty damage off the bat and switch to Suicune. Well too bad then I just Tricked my Choice Scarf to their Suicune and its useless for the remainder of the match. Things like this put incredible pressure on your opponent and it makes play easier for you.
  6. Not just Trendy - You will want something to last through as many metagame shifts as possible. Build your lead and team for the overall metagame as a whole because most likely the metagame will eventually shift so much that you'll see the same cycles over and over again.
Hope this helps.
 
Here's my current lead. I'm finding it very successful.
Deoxys - Timid - 252 Spcatt, 252 Speed, 4 Hlth - Choice Specs
Trick
Psycho Boost
Focus Blast
Stealth Rock

Uses the trick combo, except by giving a Specs instead of a Scarf, physical attackers gain nothing. It's dam fast speed means it has a 50% chance of tricking specs on dual screen deoxys, locking it into taunt. no other pokemon besides scarf users (which is stupid) can taunt deoxys.
Against other trickers, a trick done by both opponents neglect each other - both are free to choose another move. Then, it's your choice, either setting up SR or attack.

Pyscho Boost is to work with Specs and get a hard hit on many things. Scarf gengar gets OHKOed, only timid gengar outspeeds deoxys. i would probably do this as most deoxys leads are suspected to be dual screens, meaning gengar would shadow ball and OHKO me. Or i can swap out.

Focus Blast is for the steels that resist it, but most importantly, to mess up Weavile and Tyranitar switch ins if I am not locked into a move (if they swap into trick, they have a 70% chance of death). accuracy can hurt, but hp fighting won't OHKO Tar.

Shadow ball may be missed, but Azelf's only real threats are Shadow ball (which it rarely has), SR (meaning i would set up one too) and explosion (...).
 
Not just Trendy - You will want something to last through as many metagame shifts as possible. Build your lead and team for the overall metagame as a whole because most likely the metagame will eventually shift so much that you'll see the same cycles over and over again.
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This is interesting. I believe you're right, too. Some trends will eventually become so predictable, and are then forgotten about because of this.

It's like those one-off teams I breifly mentioned. The first match with an opponent on the ladder can be suprised with your unorthadox lead, but the next time around, the opponent knows what's coming. If you were to use one of those dual screen Deoxys-S leads, then the opponent may know what is coming; however, the opponent cannot stop its rampage because its so effective as a lead. A player's Deoxys-S lead, who are often challenged with Trick opposition, can easily switch-out to one of his/her own Choice Scarf varients to negate the effect that Trick would have had otherwise.
 
I like leading with an OU and making it look like I'm doing something normal, but then not.

Like Starmie @ Choice band

- Trick
- Waterfall
- ThunderBolt
- Ice beam
 
My favourite lead of all time has to be this Smeargle:

Smeargle @ Focus Sash
Ability: Own Tempo
Level: 30
EVs: 252 HP
IVs: 0 in everything other than HP
Relaxed nature (+Def, -Spd)
- Trick Room
- Destiny Bond
- Taunt
- Spore

For a while, this used to work wonders as an anti-lead, since every other lead I came up against was a sweeper of some kind. Trick Room would not only hinder the sweeper's ability, but if the opponent was foolish enough to look at Smeargle's 1% HP and say "I might as well just wipe it out with this" then Destiny Bond would wipe the smile off of his face.
Lately, however, Trick Room has been scaring off a lot of leads, so this strategy works less and less nowadays, but it was fun while it lasted, and I still use this lead in OU play because Trick Room changes one of my pokemon into essentially a new age Garchomp.
 
The best lead I've ever used in any tier is my Nidoqueen lead:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46613

Nidoqueen @ Lum Berry
Trait: Poison Point
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 12 SpD / 44 Spe
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam
- Taunt
- Stealth Rocks

Very rarely has this not set up Stealth Rocks for me, and its overall bulk and Lum Berry means that it doesn't lose to things like Scarf Sleep Leads. This works identically to the Suicide Leads (ones that lack Explosion, that is).

This really gives me the advantage often from turn 1 because I have a mindset of "I don't care what you do to this thing". That kind of thinking really gives you an advantage when leading, because Nidoqueen isn't a Pokemon, it's a really bulky Substitute. Send out your Specs Glaceon while I Stealth Rock, I don't care, because I've done my job. Instead of switching out and attempting to counter a Specs Ice Beam to the face, I'll Taunt you or smack you with an Earth Power if I outspeed, or I'll just die to Ice Beam before I get to do anything, it's all good. I like the term "Disposable Lead" rather than "Suicide Lead" for this, because it's more appropriate.

When I use Nidoqueen, usually I'll get Stealth Rocks up and possibly Taunt or attack what they have leading at the time, but what I make sure to do is Taunt absolutely everything I can. Because it can't blow up, it can become set-up fodder, and if they send out Lapras and start Dragon Dancing while I hit it with Earth Power, it'll likely be at +2 Atk and +2 Spe, making it a huge problem for my highly offensive team.
 
I used Nidoqueen in OU as a lead before, a lead of a stall team, started with similar moveset except Toxic Spikes over Stealth Rock, and it worked pretty well.
 
I've been using this on some of my teams and is actually kind of fun since people don't usually expect a Stealth Rock Tyranitar, I've had mixed success with it because I have been able to bring it in late game against a weakened team and do a nice sweep sometimes. It worked so much better in DP than in DPPt but whatever, I am using this since I really dislike the idea of all these suicide leads:

Tyranitar @ Lum Berry
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 6 HP
Jolly Nature (+Spe, -SpA)
- Stealth Rock
- Crunch
- Stone Edge
- Dragon Dance

For some reason some people expected some stupid Roar variant =\
 
My Jirachi lead is incredible for the team that I'm currently running with.
It looks like this:

Jirachi @ Toxic Orb
252 HP, 180 Def, 76 Sp. Def, 0 Speed IV
Sassy Nature
-Trick
-U-Turn
-Wish
-Protect

I guess you could call it an anti-lead or w/e, but for me this thing kicks ass.

Against Azelf or Deoxys-E leads I simply U-turn out to Lucario if it's Azelf, using ES for the kill, or Rotom-h if its Deoxys for a shadowball KO.

Anything else I use protect to scout for trick and if they have it I just stay in and let them get very upset by what they've received.

Slow U-turn is good for my Lucario and overall this is very effective in keeping SR off the field, which is good because my Heatran/Scizor counter is Charizard and we all know how much he loves Stealth Rock.

The set originally ran toxic with Stealth Rock in the last slot but after continually getting screwed by trick users, I decided to join in the madness.
 
Objection said:
Smeargle @ Focus Sash
Ability: Own Tempo
Level: 30
EVs: 252 HP
IVs: 0 in everything other than HP
Relaxed nature (+Def, -Spd)
- Trick Room
- Destiny Bond
- Taunt
- Spore
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Well with Ttar common after one move you're down a poke, no offense, but I think that's really gimmicky at best and would be easy to get around, not to mention all of the leads that still use Hypnosis.

I've got another thing you guys really need to consider. Will you beat the experts with these leads? I'm not just talking about once or twice, but good enough to be able to vote on the suspects on the ladders.
 
MythTrainerInfinity said:
Well with Ttar common after one move you're down a poke, no offense, but I think that's really gimmicky at best and would be easy to get around, not to mention all of the leads that still use Hypnosis.
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Yes, it's easy to get around, but part of the fun of using that particular lead is to see if I can catch my opponent off guard, and Trick Room isn't just for Smeargle's use either.
 
I doubt this post will be very well received... so...

Yanmega @ Focus Sash
Modest
Speed Boost

BUG BUZZ
AIR SLASH
HIDDEN POWER ICE
PROTECT

252 SAtk, 252 Spd, 6 HP

This is a sort of a mixed Specs/Lead Yanmega. Most people seem to expect a Hypnosis from Yanmega leads, and are therefore surprised by a more offensively-orientated lead.

Of the common OU leads I can think of:

1. Bug Buzz 2HKOs Tyranitar, if it tries to set up rocks I can beat it, but Fire Blast variants are a big problem. I can scout with Protect, but that may mean a rock layer, free of charge.

2. Air Slash 3HKOs DDGyara (usually) and if it tries to Dragon Dance, even once, I can probably beat it due to not being OHKOed by a once-danced Ice Fang, and even with Stone Edge variants I can survive due to the Sash.

3. Protect scouts against Weavile leads, negating Fake Out, and I can OHKO with Bug Buzz, unless it has both a Sash and Ice Shard, in which case I can easily switch out...

4. Lucario is 2HKOed by Air Slash, if it Swords Dances first turn I will beat it, unless it uses Ice Punch and Extremespeed respectively.

5. Deoxys-S can be beaten with Bug Buzz, and unless they Light Screen first turn I can OHKO, although they are faster than me I can beat them with my Sash if they use Ice Beam.

Of Trick leads... Azelf and Alakazam are no big deal, but Gengar, Jirachi and Metagross cause many problems, especially Bullet Punch Metagross.

Dragons and Shaymin-S can be beaten with Protect + HP Ice, but Shaymin can sometimes throw up a Substitute, or are just Scarved.

Bronzong is one of the main problems. It can just stall me until my speed is maxed and Gyro Ball me, or Explode and send in a Priority-user, or simply set up screens, then rocks, maybe Trick Room too, and watch me struggle.
 
The lead I've been using is Smogon's "Support" Heatran set (Will-o-Wisp, Stealth Rock, Earth power, Overheat), only with two changes: Magma Storm substituted in for Overheat, and Wide Lens over leftovers as the item. Wide Lens reduces the number of annoying misses with Will-o-Wisp and makes it so that Magma Storm has slightly usable accuracy. Magma storm is great against Focus Sash leads, especially the more fragile ones (Ninjask is HILARIOUS)
 
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