nowhere in my post did I mention anything about HP ground.
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Skymin Discussion Thread
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nowhere in my post did I mention anything about HP ground.
Double Team has a 33% chance of making a move miss, 50% after 2 Double Teams. Yet it is made useless by Evasion Clause. Skymin has more than a 50% chance with both its moves (and it can mean a difference between a KO or her death). Would that be a reason to consider Skymin uber? (I'm actually asking; I'm not considering this a conclusion that she is uber).
darkness since you basically asked the same thing in the other skymin thread im just going to post my response to it here that way we keep the other thread to only experiences on the suspect ladder and not about theorymonning, which is what this thread is for
Im torn on this. I hate the thing and would love to see it gone. It is by all means manageable but it can fluke its way out of counters with its ridiculous flinching and special defence drops.
It hits one special defence drop and then can easily flinch you to death as it now requires less air slashes to defeat you due to the drop.
This is just from my experiences against it always takes down at least one pokemon.
Although it is not as frustrating and lethal as a Swords dancing Garchomp hiding behind a sandstorm sub (thank god thats gone), it is still extremely dangerous with those stats and serene grace with moves that compliment it perfectly.
With that said I can also understand why people think it deserves to be OU. After all it is very frail and has a weakness to stealth rock.
I hate it, but im not fussed whether it be uber or OU. both sides have strong cases. To me it just seems to be sitting cautiously in the middle.
It hits one special defence drop and then can easily flinch you to death as it now requires less air slashes to defeat you due to the drop.
This is just from my experiences against it always takes down at least one pokemon.
Although it is not as frustrating and lethal as a Swords dancing Garchomp hiding behind a sandstorm sub (thank god thats gone), it is still extremely dangerous with those stats and serene grace with moves that compliment it perfectly.
With that said I can also understand why people think it deserves to be OU. After all it is very frail and has a weakness to stealth rock.
I hate it, but im not fussed whether it be uber or OU. both sides have strong cases. To me it just seems to be sitting cautiously in the middle.
100/75/75 isn't frail; it's just not buff. Salamance has 95/80/80 and it isn't frail, which is only slightly better than Skymin. The SR weakness is big though.
They are not what one would call frail but the problem lies with the fact that Skymin will rarely invest in HP or Defense. It is viturally forced to poor all of its EVs into SpAtk and Spe making it unable to take hits even with some nice resist which include Fighting, Ground, and Water. Skymin taking 20% from an attack then taking SR damage is too much for it to handle. It is also weak to several common types with Ice, Rock, and Fire being the most notabe. And Salamence is a poor comparison in my opinion as it has Dragon Dance so it does not have to invest all of its EVs in Spe, it has intimidate to help it further in taking physical attacks, and it can also heal via Roost so Salamence has much more longevity compared to Skymin.
I noticed you didn't even comment on Jrrrrrrrr's comment (maybe because he's right, oh burnt, attack decreased by half).
Why do people keep mentioning this stupid argument about similar raw #s to salamence? We all know that with grass/flying typing, skymin's defenses really are shitty and a far cry from mence, who even then is not that great.
Hell, salamence is only defensively-semi-viable because of great resistances from great dragon/flying typing, intimidate, and roost. Take those away, and yeah it's pretty shitty defensively. Bulky-mence is viable only because of exterior factors, not because of its base stats. If you'd ever played a LO mix-Rash/naive salamence set, you'd know that it's not tough at all and can't even switch in repeatedly to attacks it resists.
Comparatively, skymin is even worse.
Yes, I saw the comment ages ago. And yes, Skymin is more frail than Mance (which you spelled wrong). The defences aren't shitty, shitty is Alakazam and frail is Ape (bad stats). Skymin is mediocre (decent stats but bad defensive typing). Salamance is decent.
If you acknowledge that skymin is shitty compared to salamence (yes, it is mence not mance), than stop making the stupid comparison as an argument. Frankly you can label it whatever you want, but for me if a pokemon can't switch into its resists more than 2-3 times per battle, it has shitty defenses. With SR, you're switching into 3 surfs tops, and that's pushing it.
And you know you're scratching on the bottom of the barrel when you're trying to make attacks on spelling in a public forum. Even more embarassing when you're wrong. I'm more than happy to call salamence Boumanda anyway.
And you know you're scratching on the bottom of the barrel when you're trying to make attacks on spelling in a public forum. Even more embarassing when you're wrong. I'm more than happy to call salamence Boumanda anyway.
No, you can't which is why I said Salamence's defenses are also not really praise worthy.
Meaning skymin's vye for the title of "not frail" is even less valid. It is frail.
Meaning skymin's vye for the title of "not frail" is even less valid. It is frail.
Geeses, stop calling skymin shitty. Shitty is very harsh, not even Ape is worthy of that. Skymin's are mediocre, it can take 4 Waterfalls from Leftovers Bulky Gyara without dying.
Bulky Gyarados! xD Haven't seen one of those, let alone one that was effective in battle, for ages!
Frankly word labels like "mediocre," "fair," "shitty" don't have any means of standardization. You can say "mediocre" and I can say "shitty" and neither are "right." I am going to call the defenses shitty though. I certainly don't use it for its defenses. Actually I don't use it at all at the moment, because other sweepers are simply more useful. Heck, even FLYGON manages to find more use most of the time, because while its defensive stats might not even add up to skymin's, it HAS resistances/typing worth bragging about, and that makes all the difference.
When you're as defensively weak as skymin/ape/gengar/weavile, the differences become practically trivial since you're only taking 2 resisted hits from a true sweeper tops, and going to be blown away by 2hko'd by just about any nuetral ones.
Frankly word labels like "mediocre," "fair," "shitty" don't have any means of standardization. You can say "mediocre" and I can say "shitty" and neither are "right." I am going to call the defenses shitty though. I certainly don't use it for its defenses. Actually I don't use it at all at the moment, because other sweepers are simply more useful. Heck, even FLYGON manages to find more use most of the time, because while its defensive stats might not even add up to skymin's, it HAS resistances/typing worth bragging about, and that makes all the difference.
When you're as defensively weak as skymin/ape/gengar/weavile, the differences become practically trivial since you're only taking 2 resisted hits from a true sweeper tops, and going to be blown away by 2hko'd by just about any nuetral ones.
That's nice, given that nobody uses Bulkygyara any more (it was never good, it was just good at countering specific threats). It's better to compare it to maybe switching into Surf from Bulky Starmie. Also, a couple notable things there. Bulky Gyara is going to pack Stone Edge and kill you, while you fail to kill it back. Alternately, you can swtich out, though then you're just eating more SR damage needlessly.
Furthermore, who in their right mind is just going to keep Bulkygyara in to repeatedly waterfall you? Most anything can take consecutive NVE unboosted attacks from low EVs. The problem with Skymin (and Salamence) is that SR Weak makes it hard to switch into said NVE attacks. Gyarados resists Bug and Fighting, and has Intimidate. However, SR takes away its ability to counter Heracross. The problem is that while Dragon/Flying is a great typing (Three weaks- Dragon, Ice (4x), Rock; versus six resistances- Fire, Water, Grass (4x), Bug, Fighting, Ground (Immune)), Grass-Flying is not (Fire, Rock, Ice (4x), Poison, Flying weaknesses versus Grass (4x), Fighting, Water, and Ground (immune) resists).
Also, I love how you're only getting snippy over calling Skymin "shitty". It has a bad OU typing, just enough speed to be outsped by Scarftran, a nasty weakness to SR, a terrible offensive typing, and mediocre power on moves not called Seed Flare. It also relies too much on luck, and when its luck lets it down, it's pretty much Weavile without the . I find it hard to fit it into most of my teams, especially when I want to use Salamence and don't want to get raped by Mamoswine. Generally, I haven't found it to be all that outstanding for anything other than leading with Scarf, and with DX-S out and fast scarfers running all over the place, it doesn't even do that too terribly well.
It's not shitty, but it's not overly good. All in all, it's like Togekiss and Weavile had a kid and had the worst of both worlds. Mediocre power, no reliable boosting move, no reliable healing move, no real defenses, bad defensive typings, low base power on most moves, mediocre movepool, and very little support movepool. If it had something like Roost, Nasty Plot, or other things like it... but it doesn't.
Furthermore, who in their right mind is just going to keep Bulkygyara in to repeatedly waterfall you? Most anything can take consecutive NVE unboosted attacks from low EVs. The problem with Skymin (and Salamence) is that SR Weak makes it hard to switch into said NVE attacks. Gyarados resists Bug and Fighting, and has Intimidate. However, SR takes away its ability to counter Heracross. The problem is that while Dragon/Flying is a great typing (Three weaks- Dragon, Ice (4x), Rock; versus six resistances- Fire, Water, Grass (4x), Bug, Fighting, Ground (Immune)), Grass-Flying is not (Fire, Rock, Ice (4x), Poison, Flying weaknesses versus Grass (4x), Fighting, Water, and Ground (immune) resists).
Also, I love how you're only getting snippy over calling Skymin "shitty". It has a bad OU typing, just enough speed to be outsped by Scarftran, a nasty weakness to SR, a terrible offensive typing, and mediocre power on moves not called Seed Flare. It also relies too much on luck, and when its luck lets it down, it's pretty much Weavile without the . I find it hard to fit it into most of my teams, especially when I want to use Salamence and don't want to get raped by Mamoswine. Generally, I haven't found it to be all that outstanding for anything other than leading with Scarf, and with DX-S out and fast scarfers running all over the place, it doesn't even do that too terribly well.
It's not shitty, but it's not overly good. All in all, it's like Togekiss and Weavile had a kid and had the worst of both worlds. Mediocre power, no reliable boosting move, no reliable healing move, no real defenses, bad defensive typings, low base power on most moves, mediocre movepool, and very little support movepool. If it had something like Roost, Nasty Plot, or other things like it... but it doesn't.
Honestly I question if people even think sometimes before they post. Not to single you out Chou, just using your post as a reference.
Obviously Shaymin is not Salamence defensively. Dragon is an excellent typing in terms of resistances but you guys really underrate Shaymin-S' defensive capabilities. Shaymin has resistances to some very common types in Water, Grass, Fighting and Ground and has 5 weaknesses 2 of which are hardly even used competitively. Shaymin is far from impossible to switch in like most people in this thread are making it seem.
And honestly if you are that concerned about Stealth Rock with Shaymin-S just go use Synthesis. -_-
-While it does have some common resistances, it isn't taking their hits too often at all. If you opt for Synthesis, you give up one of Shaymin-S' few viable moves.
-While this isn't to you in particular, comparing Skymin to Salamence is unfounded. There are several BulkyMence sets that play off of Mence's defensive capabilities, but the only semi-defensive set on Skymin is SubSeed, which even Roserade can do.
If I was going to SubSeed quickly, I'd do it with Sceptile probably, since it doesn't have as many weaknesses, notably lacking the SR weak.
That wasn't the point I was trying to make, but yes. Many of Skymin's sets can be done equally as effectively by other pokemon. Serene Grace + Movie 11 have caused people to way overhype it.
Any Grass can Subseed. Skymin has the best speed for a grass pokemon and the 2nd best SpcAtt (to Roserade). But she has Seed Flare. She also has Air Slash to hit the Grass that are immune to Leech Seed and Earth Power for Heatran and others. And compared to other grass pokemon, she has better defences, she can even produce 101 HP Subs.
I'll still use Skymin over Sceptile, even if she's SR weak and has more weaknesses, for the above reasons (Sceptile has to use Hidden Power for decent coverage and is frail even compared to Skymin). Plus most Skymin don't have Leech Seed, so Skymin has the element of surprise, while most people suspect Sceptile to be a SubSeeder. At least Roserade has STAB Sludge Bomb, Sleep Powder and Toxic Spikes absorbation to truly differentiate herself from Skymin (and is also not suspected to have Leech Seed).
I wouldn't run Seed Flare on SubSeed Skymin, because of the defensive nature of the set, you'll want a more accurate attack in Earth Power.
Offensive Skymin is a great late game sweeper, but the fact that it is so easily defeated by Zapdos and Crobat barring HP Ice, and Regice means that it's no more than Tyranitar, just another Pokemon to take into account when building a team.
Offensive Skymin is a great late game sweeper, but the fact that it is so easily defeated by Zapdos and Crobat barring HP Ice, and Regice means that it's no more than Tyranitar, just another Pokemon to take into account when building a team.
As if a 1/2 healing move on skymin's defenses could make up for a turn of being hit by an all-out offensive from just about any OU enemy. >>