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Skymin Discussion Thread
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What about Skymin as a lead? Sure it can't set up Stealth Rock like Azelf and it can't set up Sandstorm like Tyranitar, but (with a focus sash), it can deal some major damage. It also be used to scout for a spec. wall. Using Skymin as a lead may stop the dreaded Stealth Rocks from appearing.
E.G. X sent out Skymin, Y sent out Azelf. Skymin used Air Slash, Azelf survived or hung on with its own Focus Sash (I don't do calcs), AZELF FLINCHED! If Azelf does decide to switch then Stealth Rock will prevent it doing anything for the match. This is of course assuming Azelf doesn't switch, but usually suicide leads don't. A Scarf Azelf could ruin this strategy though.
My opinion of Skymin will likely change as people stop experimenting with it, but I think it's Uber for the time being.
E.G. X sent out Skymin, Y sent out Azelf. Skymin used Air Slash, Azelf survived or hung on with its own Focus Sash (I don't do calcs), AZELF FLINCHED! If Azelf does decide to switch then Stealth Rock will prevent it doing anything for the match. This is of course assuming Azelf doesn't switch, but usually suicide leads don't. A Scarf Azelf could ruin this strategy though.
My opinion of Skymin will likely change as people stop experimenting with it, but I think it's Uber for the time being.
Maybe ScarfMin would be better, although I don't plan on using Skymin.
Shaymin-S @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
Modest Nature
EVs: 6 HP, 252 Sp. Attack, 252 Speed (does it need all these EVs in Speed?)
- Earth Power
- Air Slash
- Seed Flare
- Hidden Power (Fire/Ice)
Shaymin-S @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
Modest Nature
EVs: 6 HP, 252 Sp. Attack, 252 Speed (does it need all these EVs in Speed?)
- Earth Power
- Air Slash
- Seed Flare
- Hidden Power (Fire/Ice)
I thought that ScarfMin was good, but has less chance than a snowball in hell of getting around its usual counters.
If a Specs Skymin can only 3HKO the Standard Registeel with Earth Power, then ScarfMin's only real hope of getting round is either:
- One or two critical hits with Earth Power
- Ten or so Flinches with Air Slash.
True, but seriously. How many people use Registeel?
It may be seeing more usage because of Skymin, but it will probably never become standard!
It may be seeing more usage because of Skymin, but it will probably never become standard!
uh lol, you'd just switch on Bronzong, that is what I would call a counter you know. You say that Hypnosis is reliable at 60% but the situation you described, assuming that Skymin does render itself impossible to take down Crobat, Zapdos and SpDef-orientated Dragonite and run HP Fire, has a 39% chance of happening.
I was being conservative, as some people run Special Attack EVs and less SpDef EVs with Calm and have roughly the same SpDef.
Oh jees. So something finally comes out as a pseudo-counter to the ubiquitous Suicide Lead, and that means it's broken? Shaymin loses to most offensive leads, especially Tyranitar. There are tons of Scarf-Trick leads that mess it up good. The only real lead that Skymin puts the hurt on is suicide leads. This is a reason that I think Skymin is good for the metagame. Now that Deoxys-E is gone, other SR leads can come out. Now let's note. It still doesn't outspeed or beat Aerodactyl, nor does it have the ability to beat Bronzong in any incarnation. So really, it's just a counter to non-Scarfed Azelf suicide leads.
Just because something forces you to change your playstyle doesn't mean it's Uber. Remember when Deoxys-E ran straight through the hyper-offensive teams, forcing people to (gasp!) change their strategy? Everyone whined and moaned, but in the end, Deoxys-E was still OU. It wasn't until people realized D-E outclassed every single other lead that it became Uber material.
Skymin doesn't really outclass anything. It's a threat unlike anything this metagame has dealt with, but it can be dealt with. Choice Sets are limited by the fact that its moves have terrible type coverage, and SR makes it a very unreliable hit-and-run poke. Life Orb sets are similarly limited, especially so by SR and Sandstorm. New threats, such as the now-amazing Bullet Punch Scizor, as well as old threats like CB Metagross, both have the ability to immediately switch in and threaten it. Bronzong walls any non-HP Fire set cold. And if you say you'd switch on any of these threats, well then... you've defined a counter.
As for the Heatran and Scizor arguments, those are completely ridiculous. Heatran was enjoying the Number 3 spot for a long-ass time before Skymin and BP Scizor showed on scene. With Hypnosis' accuracy being dropped and Heatran's ability to wall more threats, it's a no-brainer that it would jump to Number 1. Scizor showed itself to be a top-tier threat, and so its usage is also rising. The fact is that most of the counters to Skymin are already high OU, and therefore aren't affecting Centralization all that much.
TL;DR: Metagames change, and players have to change with them.
Did I ever say that just because Skymin counters suicide leads that means it's Uber? All I proposed was a new role for Skymin to play.
In my opinon, Skymin is for those who want to gamble. If you want to use Skymin effectively, you have to prepared for when it all goes pear-shaped.
The stealth rock weakness hurts Skymin and it has several counters. However, that doesn't mean it is guaranteed OU. The repeated flinchs are incredibly annoying. As stated before in this thread, Skymin's defences aren't terrible too.
I just think it should be Uber because the repeated flinchs and Seed Flare Spec. Def. drop are just pure luck, nothing else. No skill involved whatsoever. It pretty much guarantees a KO. What about late game when you know the opponent's team? Heatran, Scizor and friends are all dead and Skymin comes in for an efficient late game sweep. Skymin may find itself in OU due to the Ice weakness, Stealth Rock weakness, horrible STAB etc. but Serene Grace really annoys people, me included. It is basically a frail Togekiss that doesn't need to paralyse.
Whether this means it is Uber or OU, I don't know, but I do know where I want Skymin to be currently. It takes skill out of the metagame but whether but means it is broken is another story. I can't really judge it yet due to the short amount of time people have been using it.
Just my two cents.
In my opinon, Skymin is for those who want to gamble. If you want to use Skymin effectively, you have to prepared for when it all goes pear-shaped.
The stealth rock weakness hurts Skymin and it has several counters. However, that doesn't mean it is guaranteed OU. The repeated flinchs are incredibly annoying. As stated before in this thread, Skymin's defences aren't terrible too.
I just think it should be Uber because the repeated flinchs and Seed Flare Spec. Def. drop are just pure luck, nothing else. No skill involved whatsoever. It pretty much guarantees a KO. What about late game when you know the opponent's team? Heatran, Scizor and friends are all dead and Skymin comes in for an efficient late game sweep. Skymin may find itself in OU due to the Ice weakness, Stealth Rock weakness, horrible STAB etc. but Serene Grace really annoys people, me included. It is basically a frail Togekiss that doesn't need to paralyse.
Whether this means it is Uber or OU, I don't know, but I do know where I want Skymin to be currently. It takes skill out of the metagame but whether but means it is broken is another story. I can't really judge it yet due to the short amount of time people have been using it.
Just my two cents.
So explain how being annoying merits ubers. Togekiss is just as annoying with paraflinch. And if you're going to rely on luck, there will be chances when luck backfires on you.
...this can be said about Lucario, Salamence, Kingdra, Scizor, Heatran, etc. etc.
I do not have a concrete Skymin counter. I use SD Cradily to deal with the bastard, a couple of other steels, and that's all. Skymin is tough, and flinch-hax is annoying, but that does not merit uber.
Personally, I really wouldn't mind if he was banned, as it would mean one less threat for me to think about on my stall teams. But from a metagame perspective, he's not powerful enough. Heatran and Luke concern me far more than Skymin ever did.
I have to say that in all my use of Skymin I have never come into a situation where Air Slash was useful unless I wanted to use Flinch Hax. It doesn't have enough power compared to some of his other moves, and there is almost nothing that it weak to Air Slash that something like HP Ice of Seed Flare can't take of either.
Air Slash has decent coverage. It's super effective on many OUs - Skymin, Celebi, Machamp, Breloom, Heracross, Yanmega, and it 2HKOs Scizor and Salamance amongst others (meaning they can't swap in on Air Slash or Seed Flare (doubling Air Slash's damage) unless they're faster by means of a Scarf (and Scizor can't do that)). And Air Slash has 95% accuracy and 30pp; it can be used to finish off a pokemon instead of using Seed Flare (and can allow the Skymin to use Sub or another move instead of HP Ice).
The Air Slash hax is generally only used if that 1 flinch will result in a KO of the opponent, and 1 flinch is likely (57% > 50%), so it's not hax. More flinch is only used if the opponent is desperate a.k.a. needs it or he has a very slim chance of victory. 2 flinches in a row has 32.49% chance of occuring, which isn't very unlikely and can screw over many potential counters.
4 flinches in a row has 10.556001% chance of occurring, which is still more likely than a crit.
It'll be easier to judge Skymin once the hype has died down. As I've said, my opinion will likely change.
Skymin is no where near as broken as Garchomp was, but it is damn annoying! Skymin is probably borderline OU/Uber but, seeing all the convincing posts, I am leaning towards OU even though I hate the thing!
Skymin is no where near as broken as Garchomp was, but it is damn annoying! Skymin is probably borderline OU/Uber but, seeing all the convincing posts, I am leaning towards OU even though I hate the thing!
I don't see many HP Fires. LO Air Slash 2HKOs 252 Hlth 0 SpcDef Scizor. The same Scizor is 2HKOed by Seed Flare with the SpcDrop and Air Slash. Scizor is just a revenge killer (and thats a 2HKO with Bullet Punch).
Skymin only has massive power with Seed Flare, which with SR and SpcDrop, 2hKOs Blissey, but its resisted by many.
Skymin is about prediction. Heres some damage calculations against some of the top OU pokemon, by a 339 SpcAtt Skymin (standard). This assumes the generic moveset of Seed Flare, Air Slash, Earth Power and Substitute.
If Heatran attempts to swap in, Earth Power or Sub can lead to a OHKO withou SR damage.
If 252 Hlth 0 SpcDef neutral nature Scizor swaps in, LO Seed Flare followed by Air Slash KOs without SR damage.
If Zapdos swaps in, LO Seed Flare with Spc Drop followed Air Slash KOs 252 Hlth 0 SpcDef neutral nature Zapdos with SR damage.
Metagross with 252 Hlth, 0 SpcDef neutral nature gets 2HKOed by Earth Power without a LO boost.
Air Slash, without LO and SR, is a 2HKO on 4 Hlth, 0 SpcDef neutral nature Gengar and Lucario.
If 4 Hlth, 0 SpcDef Salamance swaps in on non LO Seed Flare and has a SpcDrop, Air Slash then KOs without SR damage.
Gyarados with 164 Hlth EVs, 0 SpcDef, neutral nature is 2HKOed by non LO Seed Flare without the SpcDrop and without SR damage.
252 Hlth, 4 SpcDef neutral nature Tyranitar gets OHKOed by LO Seed Flare with SR damage.
These calculations are absolute; they will occur 100% of the time. So any smart Skymin user should get at least one KO, and none of the above pokemon can safely swap into Skymin without proper prediction. And if Skymin sets up a Sub as one of these swaps in, only Scizor and Scarf users can beat Skymin.
And none of these calculations required the need of Air Slash flinch. Most didn't even need a Seed Flare SpcDrop and a LO boost.
Just as equally, no smart Heatran/Metagross/Zapdos user will leave said pokemon open to attacks. If you don't switch out when Skymin subs and you cannot be certain it doesnt have Earth Power, you are an idiot.
What happens when the opponent switches in Blissey, Crobat or Bronzong btw, is that a guaranteed kill?
What happens when the opponent switches in Blissey, Crobat or Bronzong btw, is that a guaranteed kill?
Blissey gets KOed by SR, Specs Seed Flare with SpcDrop, then another Seed Flare. Crobat has to kill himself with Brave Bird in order to get the KO (look at earlier posts for exact statistics). Not sure about Bronzong, but a Seed Flare SpcDrop and Air Slash hax hurt a 252 Hlth 252 SpcDef Sassy Bronzong really bad, ruining much of the reliability of Bronzong acting as a Skymin counter.
Probably the safest switchins are Registeel and Regice. Thanks to Clear Body, it will take many Air Slash flinches to beat them. But the Regis aren't common.
to be fair, dugtrio does considerably less damage to most stuff then skymin, is slower and lacks the hax factor.
My point is, why HP ground when there is EP?
So Skymin goes from Substitute version to Specs Skymin then? If you are going to use such logic, make a new thread regarding Tyranitar or Salamence who can beat all of its counters with a different moveset but each individual moveset is counterable. Btw, the second that my Blissey takes ~30% from Seed Flare I know it is Speced and I switch to my Scarftran or Crobat. No guaranteed kill there.
What are talking about with regards to Bronzong, you are either fabricating or have an alternative meaning for "really bad" damage, said Bronzong takes 23.08% - 27.22% from Air Slash with -2 SpDef.
The second I find out your Bronzong is specially oriented, I wouldn't keep SkyMin in. I would switch to something like Arcanine and use Flare Blitz if there's something already asleep. If not, I would just switch to my Lum Berrier or Insomnia/Vital Spirit mon.
That's a terrible argument. Let's allow Groudon into OU becaus, hey, Flying-types counter it 20% of the time when Stone Edge misses.
That's really cool and all, but it also was not one of the reasons that Dracul originally cited to support his opinion that Skymin is OU.
"Annoying, but manageable. That has been my impression of Skymin throughout my laddering time. Stealth Rock weakness hurts it, it's physically weak, and running HP Fire for Scizor results in a speed loss vs. other Skymin. So it's strong, but not overpowered."
He was just saying that a ~70% chance of 2HKOing a pokemon isn't reliable, which is, as I'm sure we all know, is fact. If you're going to complain about someone's luck-related argument, take it up with the people that consistently assume that the first Seed Flare will not only hit, but cause a special defense drop.