Now batting in the World Series of Pokemon Suspects: Shaymin-S!

[phalanx]

thats how i have done it with TTar, DDgyara with 252 speed can outspeed and kill it, to call it Uber is a joke, its not that good, and blissey will need to unlucky to lose to shaymin-s and i mean unlucky (will take at least 3 seed flares) and Blissey can kill shaymin-s is killed in at most 2 ice beams.
like previously said, stats say uber, in practace its OU

 

[Syberia]

If you outsped a Skymin with DDTar, then someone was using Modest instead of Timid.

 

[c l e a r]

I like to share my usage on Skymin...

Just like Deoxys-S, you can't just pick it up and expect to win. I played against people who did use it and wasn't successful because they are running Specs versions.

The thing with Skymin is complete mind games, if the player tricks you into doing something, like say, you throwing a Skymin against a Bulky Water. She tricks you by Subbing on your way into a Mamoswine and make you think twice before clicking Ice Shard.

Heatran is not a counter against the subseed set.

Skymin IS luck, that's the whole point, and some rather huge luck at that. Isn't the whole point of this community to reduce the luck to promote more skills?

This thing can 2HKO a Blissey with Seed Flare (barring the Specs), meaning just like Deoxys-S, she is designed for late mid-game or late game, where revenge kill is key.

Skymin has the stats to do it, Skymin has the huge luck factor on her end. People just don't know how to use her right, all the people I see are just throwing her out early game when I got options that pound it down, then, I show my Skymin and that's about it.

Let's remember Deoxys-S debate way back when official shoddy (smug) want to unban it. Remember, I was one of the only people that are actually sane enough to say something that revenge kills that good with no scarf cannot be in OU. And guess what? You guys thought that 95 base attacks are too weak. Well, look where Deoxys got us to.

Thing I see is that, Skymin is more than often a one for two when I played it.

Of course, you guys can test it and let it loose in OU. Who knows? It might actually be really bad. But the way I see it, Skymin will be uber at the very end.

 

[lilyhollow]

Let's remember Deoxys-S debate way back when official shoddy (smug) want to unban it. Remember, I was one of the only people that are actually sane enough to say something that revenge kills that good with no scarf cannot be in OU. And guess what? You guys thought that 95 base attacks are too weak. Well, look where Deoxys got us to.

OK, but I'm ~90% sure the majority of the votes against an OU Deoxys, or at least the informed ones, based their decision on its abilities as a lead more than anything else ("DS Deoxys takes no skill" and all that). When we "mistakenly" kept Deoxys-S OU initially, it wasn't because we misjudged the worth of its (then) standard moveset- we overlooked several options entirely, they later surfaced, and just recently we made a more educated decision. The same is less likely to happen with Skymin, who simply lacks the sheer flexibility of Deoxys. That doesn't necessary mean that Skymin can't be uber, but certainly don't try to use Deoxys to support your argument when the two are completely different pokemon who, should Skymin be banned, will have become uber for entirely different reasons.

This thing can 2HKO a Blissey with Seed Flare (barring the Specs), meaning just like Deoxys-S, she is designed for late mid-game or late game, where revenge kill is key.

Again, the Cleaner set was the main focus during the bold voting process, which failed to kick Deoxys out of standard. After that Deoxys gained a lasting surge in popularity, but nobody was really terrified of it until the Dual Screen set came along. Skymin is extremely unlikely, by the way, to even come close to Deoxys' effectiveness as a late game sweeper.

Isn't the whole point of this community to reduce the luck to promote more skills?

Well no, it isn't. And I mean, I'm sure that's one of our goals to some extent, but we're certainly going to be testing stuff like the Evasion and OHKO clauses, and as mentioned earlier there are many luck-reliant pokemon such as Togekiss that nobody looks twice at.

 

[Darkmalice]

Skymin is extremely unlikely, by the way, to even come close to Deoxys' effectiveness as a late game sweeper.

That's arguable. Skymin has 120 base SpAtt and a 120 power STAB Seed Flare with an insane effect. Deoxys had 95 base SpAtt and a 140 power STAB Psycho Boost (which wasn't used often and had its power halved after 1 use) or a 90 STAB power Psychic. Pressure is useless for sweeping, whilst Serene Grace isn't. Of course, Deoxys has better attacking options and Speed, though Seed Flare + Air Slash + Earth Power hits most pokemon for neutral damage and has decent coverage.

And Skymin is less frail than Deoxys - 100/75/75 > 50/90/90.

Rest of the post I agree with - DS Screen Deoxys was the set that was mainly responsible for Deoxys becoming uber.

 

[IcyMan28]

That's arguable. Skymin has 120 base SpAtt and a 120 power STAB Seed Flare with an insane effect. Deoxys had 95 base SpAtt and a 140 power STAB Psycho Boost (which wasn't used often and had its power halved after 1 use) or a 90 STAB power Psychic. Pressure is useless for sweeping, whilst Serene Grace isn't. Of course, Deoxys has better attacking options and Speed, though Seed Flare + Air Slash + Earth Power hits most pokemon for neutral damage and has decent coverage.

-120 base Sp.Atk isn't anything to scoff at, but the restricted movepool lets it down way too much. Its strongest attack is resisted by many types, has very low PP, and the chance of the added effect isn't as high as everyone tries to make out.

-Also, base 180 speed > base 127 speed, since you need a whopping +natured base 105 speed AND a scarf to outspeed Deoxys, while base 77 speed + Scarf is enough for Skymin.

-Deoxys' type coverage was (is) insane, and it also has the attack to effectively remove Blissey from the picture with Superpower.

And Skymin is less frail than Deoxys - 100/75/75 > 50/90/90.

-That may be so, but Deoxys is still about as defensively viable as Starmie, which isn't so bad. Stealth Rock weakness on Skymin's part negates this argument because it only starts at 75% HP. If it wanted to, Deoxys could run a speedy Recover, while Skymin could not.

-Priority attacks do a number on both of them, as well, so this point isn't exactly the best argument.

Rest of the post I agree with - DS Screen Deoxys was the set that was mainly responsible for Deoxys becoming uber.

While DS Deoxys was the set that was mainly responsible, that only gives testimony to Deoxys' insane versatility, against which Shaymin's 5 or 6 viable moves pale in comparison.

 

[AJC]

to be honest i still think the voting is full of bias since those who want the last two banned and were able to vote were filled with people who already wanted them gone

 

[Syberia]

I think this is not so much a vote about Skymin, but rather a vote to set a precedent:

Is extreme luck enough to get a pokemon banned? No one is arguing that Skymin is not luck-based, so all it comes down to is a difference of opinion - is luck ban-worthy?

 

[cim]

I think this is not so much a vote about Skymin, but rather a vote to set a precedent:

Is extreme luck enough to get a pokemon banned? No one is arguing that Skymin is not luck-based, so all it comes down to is a difference of opinion - is luck ban-worthy?

Actually, I think the vote comes down to way more than that, as Skymin doesn't seem that borderline Uber for me at all. It's just really not that unstoppable to me. There's more to it than a referendum on luck.

 

[weezy]

well this in my opinion is a real stalemate. Garchomp and Deoxys-S were clear why they should be moved. They were overwhelmingly dominant over their opposition. Garchomp was hands down the best physical sweeper, and deoxys was an incredible revenge killer/late game mixed sweeper. They dominated their departments. Skymin is a Special sweeper, and nothing too special at that. I don't have a skymin on my shoddy team, and I far from like going up against them, because they can wreak a fair bit of havoc on an unpreparred team. But Several things set it apart from Chomp and DX-S. First of all, Skymin is far from hands down best special sweeper. Some can argue that, but many others would argue Heatran, or Gengar or even Alakazam and Porygon-Z. Another thing is the other 2, especially Garchomp were dubbed as "Uncounterable". Sweeper DX-S fell to sucker punch, but Garchomp was incredibly hard to counter. Skymin can be countered, is substantially more fragile than Chomp, has some unreliable STAB attacks for a sweeper and has an air tight counter in Zapdos.
My verdict, I don't like Skymin much, but in all fairness, I'm saying for him to stay Standard.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

I think this is not so much a vote about Skymin, but rather a vote to set a precedent:

Is extreme luck enough to get a pokemon banned? No one is arguing that Skymin is not luck-based, so all it comes down to is a difference of opinion - is luck ban-worthy?

Well, I can see where youre coming from but I really agree that there is more to it. If this test of SKYMIN becomes a test of LUCK, then I think we can all agree that something went wrong and it would have to be addressed.

To address an argument that someone else brought up earlier about the precedent of banning luck, that is just not completely true. We allow Brightpowder, King's Rock, Sand Veil, Snow Cloak, moves with high Critical Hit rates already among with many other elements of luck, but those get ignored in the argument because of more critical things like Evasion.

Things like Double Team and OHKO Clause are enforced not only because they are elements of luck, they are also banned because they are really really effective tactics (to the point that almost everyone agrees that they are ban-worthy). Double Team and OHKO moves all give you much more reward than is fair for the amount of risk involved, as I outlined in the OHKO thread in the Policy Review forum.

With Skymin, the risk v reward argument is much different, since the risks are much greater if your luck does not pan out. If you don't get that initial spdef drop, you will lose to virtually everything that would switch in. The risks of missing an OHKO move is that you just wasted one turn, this can easily be made up for with Recovery moves or being sturdy in general since you don't need to rely on Attacking EVs (none of which Skymin can do). The risks of not getting lucky with Skymin is that you basically just crippled your special sweeper by bringing it into SR damage and being forced to waste precious PP (and being forced to take MORE SR damage the next time you want to risk it).

The only question of luck, Syberia, is "how many flinches does it take for a battler to get angry enough to want to ban Skymin?" The point of this post is to remind people that we don't just ban something for being lucky and we never have, I'm not sure where people are getting this idea from.

 

[Darkmalice]

My posts aren't bold. This is a quote from a quote.


-120 base Sp.Atk isn't anything to scoff at, but the restricted movepool lets it down way too much. Its strongest attack is resisted by many types, has very low PP, and the chance of the added effect isn't as high as everyone tries to make out.

Skymin has Air Slash as secondary STAB to save PP when needed, this isn't very hard after a Seed Flare SpDrop e.g. Seed Flare SpDrop + Air Slash = 2HKO on Bulky Gyara without SR damage.
Deoxys lacks secondary STAB, and thanks to Skymin's higher attack, Air Slash does more damage than Psychic and with more PP, better effect and hitting more pokemon super effective.


-Also, base 180 speed > base 127 speed, since you need a whopping +natured base 105 speed AND a scarf to outspeed Deoxys, while base 77 speed + Scarf is enough for Skymin.

Yes, I acknowledged the massive speed difference. No need to type it again.


-Deoxys' type coverage was (is) insane, and it also has the attack to effectively remove Blissey from the picture with Superpower.

Superpower requires Att EVs (160 with SR damage and Expert Belt boost) to 2HKO 130 Def. Blissey. But this only works if Blissey swaps in on Deoxys. Otherwise, Blissey can use Wish and Protect, or Thunderwave and Softboiled (or just Softboiled) and Superpower becomes too weak to do sufficient damage. And Deoxys is more likely to be spamming Special attacks, whilst Skymin's main offense move (Seed Flare) is the one that Blissey has trouble switching in on. Of course, if you predict that, swap in Heatran, but Blissey usually has an easy time getting in on Deoxys, as its special attacks barely dent Blissey.

Type coverage is definitely better, just off a lower attack (and HP on Skymin gives it at least one type attack of choice).


-That may be so, but Deoxys is still about as defensively viable as Starmie, which isn't so bad. Stealth Rock weakness on Skymin's part negates this argument because it only starts at 75% HP. If it wanted to, Deoxys could run a speedy Recover, while Skymin could not.

-Priority attacks do a number on both of them, as well, so this point isn't exactly the best argument.

Nothing much to say here. Deoxys does take Spikes damage though and more damage from most priority moves than Skymin, and SR damage can be healed by Wish, though Ice Shard cripples her.

 

[cim]

darknessmalice, you seem to lack a basic understanding of what made Deoxys Speed Uber in some people's eyes. It was his massive movepool that made him one of the best leads, late game sweepers, and such in the game. The Dual Screen set is what really pissed people off to the point of Uberness. Typing "it's more powerful and has better STAB than DX-S it must be Uber" is completely missing the point.

Ignoring that your entire comparison is completely invalid as you're comparing two completely different Pokémon, there's several problems with your individual conversations ("it can be healed by Wish!" applies to every Pokémon in the game, "DX-S takes Spikes damage" is unimportant as Stealth Rock is on every team and Spikes are definitely not, etc.)

darknessmalice: How much play experience do you have? Did you change your team to account for Skymin if it didn't already have a Heatran / Scizor / Zapdos / Whatever?

 

[Darkmalice]

darknessmalice, you seem to lack a basic understanding of what made Deoxys Speed Uber in some people's eyes. It was his massive movepool that made him one of the best leads, late game sweepers, and such in the game. The Dual Screen set is what really pissed people off to the point of Uberness. Typing "it's more powerful and has better STAB than DX-S it must be Uber" is completely missing the point.

Ignoring that your entire comparison is completely invalid as you're comparing two completely different Pokémon, there's several problems with your individual conversations ("it can be healed by Wish!" applies to every Pokémon in the game, "DX-S takes Spikes damage" is unimportant as Stealth Rock is on every team and Spikes are definitely not, etc.)

darknessmalice: How much play experience do you have? Did you change your team to account for Skymin if it didn't already have a Heatran / Scizor / Zapdos / Whatever?

We're comparing deoxys and skymin in terms of revenge killing only. Movepools and everything else about DX-S are impossible to compare to Skymin.

Yes, it was movepool that made Deoxys uber, but it was not so much for the revenge killing part, rather its effectiveness as a lead was too good. This was realised when DS DX-S became popular. People who didn't realise the potential of that set believed Deoxys should've been OU.

It's also interesting how you ignored my "ice shard crippled her" comment. And I never posted "it's more powerful and has better STAB than DX-S it must be Uber." I'm only comparing the two revenge killing skills (and I never said Skymin should be uber). If you're going to get insulting (and don't), don't make up complete bullshit.

For my current team (and i was one of those who had some major changes in team from dp to plat), I have Scizor, Blissey and my own Skymin for Skymin. Ironically, I lost my last game by getting swept by a Skymin (it came down to a point of Skymin vs Skymin), as Scizor was in health range to be KOed by Air Slash, and the enemy paralysed Metagross haxed my Blissey with a crit. I prefer uber battling, in which im #3 at the moment (formerly #2 (but my ranking is irrevelant)). I don't play much for a while due to exams (not much every day). i've been playing since the start of this year on shoddy, used to be on the ou leaderboard before plat was out (official shoddy, before smogon supported shoddy).

Now, how much have you played (and don't make up bullshit)?

 

[CHENN]

Now, how much have you played (and don't make up bullshit)?

That's not the point of any of this. We're supposed to relay in-game experience with Skymin, not tell other people how well we do on a ladder without Skymin.

Anyways, I've been playing more now, and I still think that Skymin should be OU, for all the reasons that have already been stated.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I like to share my usage on Skymin...

Just like Deoxys-S, you can't just pick it up and expect to win. I played against people who did use it and wasn't successful because they are running Specs versions.

The thing with Skymin is complete mind games, if the player tricks you into doing something, like say, you throwing a Skymin against a Bulky Water. She tricks you by Subbing on your way into a Mamoswine and make you think twice before clicking Ice Shard.

Heatran is not a counter against the subseed set.

Skymin IS luck, that's the whole point, and some rather huge luck at that. Isn't the whole point of this community to reduce the luck to promote more skills?

This thing can 2HKO a Blissey with Seed Flare (barring the Specs), meaning just like Deoxys-S, she is designed for late mid-game or late game, where revenge kill is key.

Skymin has the stats to do it, Skymin has the huge luck factor on her end. People just don't know how to use her right, all the people I see are just throwing her out early game when I got options that pound it down, then, I show my Skymin and that's about it.

Let's remember Deoxys-S debate way back when official shoddy (smug) want to unban it. Remember, I was one of the only people that are actually sane enough to say something that revenge kills that good with no scarf cannot be in OU. And guess what? You guys thought that 95 base attacks are too weak. Well, look where Deoxys got us to.

Thing I see is that, Skymin is more than often a one for two when I played it.

Of course, you guys can test it and let it loose in OU. Who knows? It might actually be really bad. But the way I see it, Skymin will be uber at the very end.

When so many top pokemon in this game can carry out their goals with very high levels of reliability, why should I use this lottery ticking?

While one-for-one two-for-one idea certainly has its applications to pokemon, in the end of the day a really effective team isn't a bunch of sweepers each waiting in line to come out and kill as many enemies as possible. A well built team has a plan where pokemon at the start achieve goals to aid the finish at the end.

 

[IcyMan28]

We're comparing deoxys and skymin in terms of revenge killing only. Movepools and everything else about DX-S are impossible to compare to Skymin.

-Even with revenge killing, switching is an option. I realize that this same argument could be made for Deoxys, but the type coverage means that whatever switches in risks SE damage. Spiritomb is the best counter to revenge killing Deoxys due to Sucker Punch / Pursuit + Psychic immunity + no weaknesses.

-As I've pointed out, Stealth Rock makes Skymin even more susceptible to being picked off by priority - after all, it DOES have to come in to begin with.

Yes, it was movepool that made Deoxys uber, but it was not so much for the revenge killing part, rather its effectiveness as a lead was too good. This was realised when DS DX-S became popular. People who didn't realise the potential of that set believed Deoxys should've been OU.

-This is somewhat true. As soon as Deoxys was declared OU in the initial vote, its usage on the ladder jumped incredibly, evidence that its potential as a revenge killer was well recognized. DS Deoxys is good, but if I wanted to I could use DS Azelf and have similar results (since Azelf is still pretty fast itself).

It's also interesting how you ignored my "ice shard crippled her" comment. And I never posted "it's more powerful and has better STAB than DX-S it must be Uber." I'm only comparing the two revenge killing skills (and I never said Skymin should be uber). If you're going to get insulting (and don't), don't make up complete bullshit.

-You did, however, mention the secondary Air Slash STAB as significant. While this is a factor, the relatively weak power of Air Slash means that it isn't doing too much damage anytime soon without stat modifiers. Notice that your example of 2HKOing bulky Gyara without Stealth Rock is only true when there is indeed a sp.def drop. Unfortunately, this is the case in many circumstances.

For my current team (and i was one of those who had some major changes in team from dp to plat), I have Scizor, Blissey and my own Skymin for Skymin. Ironically, I lost my last game by getting swept by a Skymin (it came down to a point of Skymin vs Skymin), as Scizor was in health range to be KOed by Air Slash, and the enemy paralysed Metagross haxed my Blissey with a crit. I prefer uber battling, in which im #3 at the moment (formerly #2 (but my ranking is irrevelant)). I don't play much for a while due to exams (not much every day). i've been playing since the start of this year on shoddy, used to be on the ou leaderboard before plat was out (official shoddy, before smogon supported shoddy).

-Playing on the Uber ladder means nothing when it comes to OU. In the scenario you depicted, your Scizor was weakened and Blissey was haxed by a critical hit (which is irrelevant as Metagross has no trouble trouncing through Blissey). Of course you will have a more difficult time against Skymin when your main answers to it are not in the best condition (Skymin vs Skymin was a speed tie, so that isn't evidence either way).

Now, how much have you played (and don't make up bullshit)?

In my opinion, Skymin is just another revenge killer who is susceptible to being revenged itself, or stopped by Blissey. Infernape, Scarfers, etc can do the job just as well.

 

[Darkmalice]

In my opinion, Skymin is just another revenge killer who is susceptible to being revenged itself, or stopped by Blissey. Infernape, Scarfers, etc can do the job just as well.

True to some degree. Skymin's uniqueness in terms of other revenge killers come from its STAB and effects, and it has more raw power than many revenge killers thanks to Seed Flare's 120 Base Power (which unlike Overheat, can gain power over time), but it's resisted more easily. Other revenge killers have their own advantages like better STAB and better type coverage.

-Even with revenge killing, switching is an option. I realize that this same argument could be made for Deoxys, but the type coverage means that whatever switches in risks SE damage. Spiritomb is the best counter to revenge killing Deoxys due to Sucker Punch / Pursuit + Psychic immunity + no weaknesses.

They both have their advantages here. Skymin has more resistances (and some key ones - Water, Fighting and Ground immunity) and isn't weak to Pursuit, but she has an SR weakness and more weaknesses.

-This is somewhat true. As soon as Deoxys was declared OU in the initial vote, its usage on the ladder jumped incredibly, evidence that its potential as a revenge killer was well recognized. DS Deoxys is good, but if I wanted to I could use DS Azelf and have similar results (since Azelf is still pretty fast itself).

True, DX-S is a good revenge killer, no one is arguing about that. This part is a bit off topic. DS Azelf and Bronzong are still good, but DS Deoxys is generally better. thanks to higher speed, making it far harder to taunt (which is only possible by other DX-S, Ninjask after a Speed Boost and Scarfers (...))

-You did, however, mention the secondary Air Slash STAB as significant. While this is a factor, the relatively weak power of Air Slash means that it isn't doing too much damage anytime soon without stat modifiers. Notice that your example of 2HKOing bulky Gyara without Stealth Rock is only true when there is indeed a sp.def drop. Unfortunately, this is the case in many circumstances.

I was comparing the Air Slash STAB to DX-S Psychic. Air Slash still does more than DX-S Psychic, and allows at least a decent sweeping alternative to Seed Flare. And of course, DX-S can prey on weaknesses much more than Skymin, who relies more on raw power, prediction and luck.
A 2HKO on Gyara is possible, without a SpDrop and SR damage, with Seed Flare. But not Air Slash.

That's not the point of any of this. We're supposed to relay in-game experience with Skymin, not tell other people how well we do on a ladder without Skymin.

If my question was irrevelant, then please don't ask me the question yourself.

 

[Pride]

-This is somewhat true. As soon as Deoxys was declared OU in the initial vote, its usage on the ladder jumped incredibly, evidence that its potential as a revenge killer was well recognized. DS Deoxys is good, but if I wanted to I could use DS Azelf and have similar results (since Azelf is still pretty fast itself).

Actually this is incorrect. Deoxys-S sat in the gutter of OU for a long time and many people thought that moving Deoxys-S was the correct choice. I believe it wasnt til Husk's team that it was finally used in the top 10 and DS Deoxys that called Deoxys to be up for banning.

And the comparisons to Deoxys-S and Garchomp need to stop. All three are played much differently and comparing them is useless.

 

[RBG]

Personally, Skymin as a sweeper is over rated. I've been using a Timid Seed Flare/Air Slash/Earth Power/ HP Ice moveset, and the only times I have swept a team is when all their pokemon were slower and were 4 times weak to the attacks. I haven't used any sub seed set, but it just seems too easy to kill. I've had no problem taking it out when i fought it.

 

[Mekkah]

to be honest i still think the voting is full of bias since those who want the last two banned and were able to vote were filled with people who already wanted them gone

I don't see your argument. Yes, the majority of the people able to vote were against it. That's what caused them to be banned, not what made them able to vote. What made them able to vote was their battling capabilities.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

I don't see your argument. Yes, the majority of the people able to vote were against it. That's what caused them to be banned, not what made them able to vote. What made them able to vote was their battling capabilities.

I can sort of see where he is coming from. He is saying that it is likely that many people who always wanted said Pokemon banned would work tirelessly on their ladder ranking just so that they could kick those Pokemon out of OU. Of course in theory the same argument could be made for people who really want those Pokemon to stay in OU, and both stances are equally dishonest. I guess one could make the case that the former is more likely to motivate such an exploitation of the system, though I do not necessarily agree with it.

Note that in essence this is by no means an illegitimate ploy as far as the current system is concerned. It does however show that battling capability is not the major factor here (although it is obviously an important one), as the system ultimately rewards your commitment to the test, regardless of motivation. I'll say again that in no way do I agree with this stance (I don't play on Suspect myself, so I have no right to be making any firm assertions), I am simply giving my interpretation of the argument as I see it, and how it could possibly lead to a bias in the voting system.

 

[lilyhollow]

I actually thought it was rather telling that Deoxys-S got a greater percentage of Uber votes than Garchomp did. I think I agree that "commitment to the test" is a huge factor in determining how the votes go as Lemmiwinks said, and honestly as a result I think the bias will lean towards Uber, especially when it isn't required that we give reasoning and we can therefore literally ban stuff just because it might irritate us. I mean, if I don't like something, I'm to some extent motivated to get rid of it no matter what- even if I knew Suicune was overall just fine in OU, if I just really hated dealing with Suicune I might just not care enough to vote, or even vote Uber out of pure selfishness. And I guess the "1650 average rating" filter helps deal with that, but then again, in ADV there were plenty of great players who would have never supported an OU Celebi, right?

Actually this is incorrect. Deoxys-S sat in the gutter of OU for a long time and many people thought that moving Deoxys-S was the correct choice. I believe it wasnt til Husk's team that it was finally used in the top 10 and DS Deoxys that called Deoxys to be up for banning.

I think the theory is that people didn't want to use Deoxys because it was in "limbo," and then when it was made officially OU people were more comfortable with using it.


To get back to the actual subject of Skymin though, has anybody really had any legitimate "Skymin is Uber" experiences in platinum yet? I mean I've heard crazy flinch horror stories and a whole ton of theorymon, but it looks like I'm seeing even more "well no problems here!" kind of statements and I'm wondering who is even questioning Skymin's position anymore and what their actually ingame experiences have been.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

to be honest i still think the voting is full of bias since those who want the last two banned and were able to vote were filled with people who already wanted them gone

They had to preform well on both ladders and they had to evaluate how to deal with the suspects. It takes plenty of experience and you can't just slap together a bog standard team and expect to get 1650 on both.

I am currently testing out a Skymin along with two Trickers and I'm personally finding it to be quite dominating as getting it in to Sub isn't too hard. It still gets walled silly by certain pokes, but its just an interesting thing to note. I still don't think the badass Shaymin is uber material...

 

[Syberia]

On the subject of Trick (I don't know where to actually post this), it needs to be fixed on Shoddy, as it is both broken and not working properly in its present state. In-game, if you Trick away a choice item and receive one in return, you are still forced to use Trick again, but on Shoddy you are allowed to change moves. This largely makes just spamming Trick without regards for the consequences to be way more viable than it should be, as if you're wrong and your opponent sends in their own choice user to block it, your bad prediction didn't cost you anything as you're now able to freely choose another move. In-game, you'd be forced to switch out.