Now batting in the World Series of Pokemon Suspects: Shaymin-S!

[Darkmalice]

It's not the same; Garchomp had no absolute counters. Those were the revenge killers failing due to Garchomp's ability. Shaymin has definite counters and if you are completely haxed to death, it is always a guarantee that Ice Shard, Bullet Punch, etc. will do the job.

Skymin does have definite counters, but very few - Heatran isn't cause he can't swap in on Earth Power (and Sub). Registeel and Regice are, barring Air Slash flinch (which screws over at least most of the definite counters). Metagross can bypass it, though it can only OHKO with Ice Punch, making it prone to flinching, and if he Bullet Punches, he's vulernable to Earth Power.
But yes, more counters than Garchomp, and revenge killed pretty easily. 1 KO, however, is almost always guaranteed with Skymin, similarly to Garchomp.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

OK, just because a pokemon sometimes carries one move that can beat you, doesn't mean you instantly aren't a counter. Heatran can still switch into every single other move that Skymin has except Earth Power, that is a pretty solid counter to me. Lots of Skymin do not even use Earth Power. That's like saying Cresselia isn't a good Garchomp switchin because its 2hkod by CB Outrage. In d/p, most movepools are expansive enough to the point where its counters can be hit reasonably hard. Lickilicky can use Fire Blast on Bronzong, Gyarados has Taunt, Swampert uses Ice Beam, etc. In d/p, countering is almost always cut down to a point where its "good enough" since lots of sets require seeing every move...which means taking hits. Heatran certainly falls into a category where it's "good enough of a counter" to declare it one, stop getting so hung up on technicalities (since so many people seem to agree that presence of counters is not a qualification for uber status).

"one ko is guaranteed" is blatantly false. I got to #4 on the OU ladder at one point and i've only lost one pokemon to Skymin to this point (to a crit). My team that is completely unchanged from d/p to platinum has no issues with it. There were already very common OU pokemon that counter Skymin at the time of its introduction, I'm not sure why people see it as a threat at all...can we please stop overhyping Serene Grace? lol

 

[Darkmalice]

OK, just because a pokemon sometimes carries one move that can beat you, doesn't mean you instantly aren't a counter. Heatran can still switch into every single other move that Skymin has except Earth Power, that is a pretty solid counter to me. Lots of Skymin do not even use Earth Power. That's like saying Cresselia isn't a good Garchomp switchin because its 2hkod by CB Outrage. In d/p, most movepools are expansive enough to the point where its counters can be hit reasonably hard. Lickilicky can use Fire Blast on Bronzong, Gyarados has Taunt, Swampert uses Ice Beam, etc. In d/p, countering is almost always cut down to a point where its "good enough" since lots of sets require seeing every move...which means taking hits. Heatran certainly falls into a category where it's "good enough of a counter" to declare it one, stop getting so hung up on technicalities (since so many people seem to agree that presence of counters is not a qualification for uber status).

"one ko is guaranteed" is blatantly false. I got to #4 on the OU ladder at one point and i've only lost one pokemon to Skymin to this point (to a crit). My team that is completely unchanged from d/p to platinum has no issues with it. There were already very common OU pokemon that counter Skymin at the time of its introduction, I'm not sure why people see it as a threat at all...can we please stop overhyping Serene Grace? lol

This is complete garbage. Nothing you said is right.


According to the typical movesets page, Skymin's is Seed Flare, Air Slash, Earth Power and Substitute. No others are mentioned. Heatran cannot swap into Earth Power and Substitute., 2 out of 4 moves.

And when was Cresselia a Garchomp counter? Yache Berry Chomp sets up a SD, then 2HKOs while Cresselia doesn't OHKO thanks to Yache (and like you said, Cresselia can't swap into CB Outrage, but that's completely irrevelant).

A counter applies to the moveset of the pokemon. Heatran is a check, but not a counter to the generic Skymin (and Cresselia is not even a check for standard Chomp). The definition of a counter is, as stated by smogon, a pokemon that can switch safely without reasonable threat. Heatran faces a OHKO threat by two of Skymin's moves. (Oh, and by the way, many Gyarados have Taunt and many Swampert have Ice Beam).

Counters was one of the reasons why Garchomp was declared uber (not the only one, but it was one).

#4 on the OU Ladder before plat is irrelevant, and I doubt you didn't have any issues with plat changes. Leads have changed lots thanks to Trick. And Skymin came out with the plat changes like Bullet Punch Scizor (a check, not a counter) and with the increased popularity in Scarf Heatran (in addition to the increased popularity from Chomp moving into uber).



Skymin is mainly about prediction, not luck. Heres some damage calculations against some of the top OU pokemon, by a 339 SpcAtt Skymin (standard). This assumes the generic moveset of Seed Flare, Air Slash, Earth Power and Substitute.

If Heatran attempts to swap in, Earth Power or Sub can lead to a OHKO withou SR damage.
If 252 Hlth 0 SpcDef neutral nature Scizor swaps in, LO Seed Flare followed by Air Slash KOs without SR damage.
If Zapdos swaps in, LO Seed Flare with Spc Drop followed Air Slash KOs 252 Hlth 0 SpcDef neutral nature Zapdos with SR damage.
Metagross with 252 Hlth, 0 SpcDef neutral nature gets 2HKOed by Earth Power without a LO boost.
Air Slash, without LO and SR, is a 2HKO on 4 Hlth, 0 SpcDef neutral nature Gengar and Lucario.
If 4 Hlth, 0 SpcDef Salamance swaps in on non LO Seed Flare and has a SpcDrop, Air Slash then KOs without SR damage.
Gyarados with 164 Hlth EVs, 0 SpcDef, neutral nature is 2HKOed by non LO Seed Flare without the SpcDrop and without SR damage.
252 Hlth, 4 SpcDef neutral nature Tyranitar gets OHKOed by LO Seed Flare with SR damage.

These calculations are absolute; they will occur 100% of the time. So any smart Skymin user should get at least one KO, and none of the above pokemon can safely swap into Skymin without proper prediction. And if Skymin sets up a Sub as one of these swaps in, only Scizor and Scarf users can beat Skymin (Scizor requires Skymin to have taken SR damage or he fails too).

And none of these calculations required the need of Air Slash flinch. Most didn't even need a Seed Flare SpcDrop and a LO boost.

 

[Jumpman16]

This is complete garbage. Nothing you said is right.

pretty ballsy to call anyone's post complete garbage, let alone a mod's

And when was Cresselia a Garchomp counter? Yache Berry Chomp sets up a SD, then 2HKOs while Cresselia doesn't OHKO thanks to Yache (and like you said, Cresselia can't swap into CB Outrage, but that's completely irrevelant).

I will actually take this opportunity to note that, while you are right and what I'm about to post is an aside, take a look at this:

Cresselia@Choice Scarf
EVs: 252HP/136Def/120Spe
Nature: Bold
~ Trick
~ Ice Beam
~ Reflect
~ Moonlight

This Cresselia is pretty much a 100% counter to both standard Yachechomp and Skymin, a little less in the case of Skymin but still. 120 Speed EVs gives Cresselia 352 Speed with a Choice Scarf, enough to get all Modest Skymin by one point (354 vs. 353), 136 Def is a Magic Defense point and HP is Maxed. Cress does 79% minimim to Shaymin with Ice Beam, more than enough with everybody's "Stealth Rock" argument.

As for Garchomp, faster speed and the threat of Trick is enough to seriously hamper it. Switch into SD? Ice Beam 2HKOes "easy" (I am aware of Sand Veil). Switch into Earthquake? Cress is free to do whatever, obviously (Ice Beam or Reflect are recommended, the latter for Tyranitar or any other Pursuiters that want to switch in) Switch into Outrage? Cresselia can literally use any of her four moves: faster Trick to permanently cripple the threat of Yache Chomp (and Trick that onto something else later); faster Ice Beam for a faster at-least-2HKO without being 2HKOed by Outrage including the one it took on the switch; faster Reflect and switch out with a decent HP (~45%), or just Moonlight and get out of there with like 75% HP. Switching into Fire Fang is even easier to deal with, IB or Reflect are fine here cause as with EQ Chomp probably isn't staying in.

#4 on the OU Ladder before plat is irrelevant, and I doubt you didn't have any issues with plat changes. Leads have changed lots thanks to Trick. And Skymin came out with the plat changes like Bullet Punch Scizor (a check, not a counter) and with the increased popularity in Scarf Heatran (in addition to the increased popularity from Chomp moving into uber).

He's stated a couple times now how few pokemon he's lost to Skymin, and this is before and after DX-S. That, along with the fact that he hasnt changed his team and his rating, is all you need to know to suspect that maybe Skymin isn't as troublesome as everyone is making it out to be.

Skymin is mainly about prediction, not luck. Heres some damage calculations against some of the top OU pokemon, by a 339 SpcAtt Skymin (standard). This assumes the generic moveset of Seed Flare, Air Slash, Earth Power and Substitute.

If Heatran attempts to swap in, Earth Power or Sub can lead to a OHKO withou SR damage.

fine

If 252 Hlth 0 SpcDef neutral nature Scizor swaps in, LO Seed Flare followed by Air Slash KOs without SR damage.

scizor isn't a skymin counter

If Zapdos swaps in, LO Seed Flare with Spc Drop followed Air Slash KOs 252 Hlth 0 SpcDef neutral nature Zapdos with SR damage.

this happens less than 2/3 of the time (64.6% of the time) even if SR is up

Metagross with 252 Hlth, 0 SpcDef neutral nature gets 2HKOed by Earth Power without a LO boost.

metagross does 41-48% with CB Bullet Punch which means skymin is 2HKOed "with SR support"

Air Slash, without LO and SR, is a 2HKO on 4 Hlth, 0 SpcDef neutral nature Gengar and Lucario.
If 4 Hlth, 0 SpcDef Salamance swaps in on non LO Seed Flare and has a SpcDrop, Air Slash then KOs without SR damage.
Gyarados with 164 Hlth EVs, 0 SpcDef, neutral nature is 2HKOed by non LO Seed Flare without the SpcDrop and without SR damage.
252 Hlth, 4 SpcDef neutral nature Tyranitar gets OHKOed by LO Seed Flare with SR damage.

none of these pokemon are remotely skymin counters, why did you bother

These calculations are absolute; they will occur 100% of the time. So any smart Skymin user should get at least one KO, and none of the above pokemon can safely swap into Skymin without proper prediction. And if Skymin sets up a Sub as one of these swaps in, only Scizor and Scarf users can beat Skymin (Scizor requires Skymin to have taken SR damage or he fails too).

And none of these calculations required the need of Air Slash flinch. Most didn't even need a Seed Flare SpcDrop and a LO boost.

why are you ignoring the fact that a seed flare SpD Drop will only happen 68% of the time, not "100% of the time", and why are you assuming 100% SR presence lol

 

[jrrrrrrr]

This is complete garbage. Nothing you said is right.

lol

According to the typical movesets page, Skymin's is Seed Flare, Air Slash, Earth Power and Substitute. No others are mentioned. Heatran cannot swap into Earth Power and Substitute., 2 out of 4 moves.

What is stopping Heatran from coming in on Substitute? How can you dismiss my entire post as garbage when you open up with this laugher?

And when was Cresselia a Garchomp counter? Yache Berry Chomp sets up a SD, then 2HKOs while Cresselia doesn't OHKO thanks to Yache (and like you said, Cresselia can't swap into CB Outrage, but that's completely irrevelant).

I never said that Cresselia was a Garchomp counter. Why don't you try reading? Or better yet reading comprehension? I said it was a good switch-in to Garchomp, which is undeniably true. Jumpman's Scarf Trick Cresselia proves that even the words you put into my mouth are correct.

A counter applies to the moveset of the pokemon. Heatran is a check, but not a counter to the generic Skymin (and Cresselia is not even a check for standard Chomp). The definition of a counter is, as stated by smogon, a pokemon that can switch safely without reasonable threat. Heatran faces a OHKO threat by two of Skymin's moves. (Oh, and by the way, many Gyarados have Taunt and many Swampert have Ice Beam).

Again, if you actually took the time to read and understand my post instead of just lashing out because I disagreed with you, you would have found that I already addressed this. I know what a counter is, I said that a check is good enough in every applicable in-battle situation. Who cares if my whole team is 4x weak to Grass if my scarf Heatran is about to Fire Blast your Skymin?

And which two of Skymin's moves OHKO Heatran? Earth Power and HP Ground? That doesnt really count...

Counters was one of the reasons why Garchomp was declared uber (not the only one, but it was one).

Hey, you finally got something that is actually relevant right! I guess 1 for 4 after declaring my post garbage and wrong isn't that bad!!

#4 on the OU Ladder before plat is irrelevant, and I doubt you didn't have any issues with plat changes. Leads have changed lots thanks to Trick. And Skymin came out with the plat changes like Bullet Punch Scizor (a check, not a counter) and with the increased popularity in Scarf Heatran (in addition to the increased popularity from Chomp moving into uber).

"Reading comprehension". I was illustrating the fact that I know how to play the current metagame and that I've been successful enough to know how to survive in it. It was serving to demonstrate that the changes brought on from Platinum are nice, but they are extremely hyped and overrated, as demonstrated by the blatantly false "its guaranteed one ko per match" line you tried to pull. If you read what I was responding to, you would realize that my statement here was to separate the parts of your post that were meaningless, off-topic hype and the parts that actually had substance.

The changes are not centralizing by any means, they have not changed the idea of the game, and no single change stands out as more overpowering than the other.

Skymin is mainly about prediction, not luck. Heres some damage calculations against some of the top OU pokemon, by a 339 SpcAtt Skymin (standard). This assumes the generic moveset of Seed Flare, Air Slash, Earth Power and Substitute.

Assuming that the first sentence is true (which it really isn't, but I'll go along with it), if your main method of dealing damage is "prediction" then you are really in a hole from the get-go. If you have to GUESS what move to do in order to do damage, you won't be doing much damage at all against an intelligent player or against someone who is also predicting.

<irrelevant calculations>

These calculations are absolute; they will occur 100% of the time. So any smart Skymin user should get at least one KO, and none of the above pokemon can safely swap into Skymin without proper prediction. And if Skymin sets up a Sub as one of these swaps in, only Scizor and Scarf users can beat Skymin (Scizor requires Skymin to have taken SR damage or he fails too).

And none of these calculations required the need of Air Slash flinch. Most didn't even need a Seed Flare SpcDrop and a LO boost.

Actually your calculation against Tyranitar is wrong, I know that for a fact. Timid Skymin can't guarantee an OHKO against 252 HP TTar unless it has Choice Specs.

I also want to reiterate Jump's point about how none of your calculations are really relevant. Gyarados? Gengar? Lucario? Zapdos also handles all of those pokemon, should it be uber? Also, how often are you going to be in 1-v-1 situations against those pokemon? +1 Gyarados can be faster, Luke will take Skymin down with it using ES and SR Damage, Gengar is most dangerous when its scarfed....Your messy vague damage calculations dont prove anything.

All of your relevant Skymin calculations rely on that SpDef drop or being flinched in order for Skymin to come out on top at the end. On paper, that's fine and dandy. When actually playing the game, however, those are not good or reliable odds by any means.

 

[Poppin]

Skymin is sadly overrated. While adjusting to Platinum's changes, I've only encountered two Skymin that caused my team to lose- one was from 4 consecutive Air Slash flinches and one was Stone Edge missing twice (on the switch in and after Seed Flare hit).

Once I began running something with Ice Shard, Skymin began to become less of a problem. Choice Scarf, Jolly Metagross and Gyarados do a good job of catching Skymin off guard and OHKOing it. A shallow movepool and the fact that it relies mostly on luck to KO something bulky makes me feel a bit safer with it being in OU.

Ironicly, so many people complain about Skymin, but, I bearly see any in the Standard ladder. Only about 1 or 3 a day, but, that's it.

 

[DT]

Scizor OHKOs with a Bug move, not Bullet Punch. If Scizor swaps into Air Slash, he gets 2HKOed.



Luck can screw over Skymin's counters, which is similar to how an Ice Beam could miss Garchomp in Sandstorm (except Skymin's luck is much easily to activate) and end up costing you the game.

Why would he use a bug move when it half Flying a priority 60 BP stab move is better and it does KO shaymin after a SD.

 

[Darkmalice]

lol

What is stopping Heatran from coming in on Substitute? How can you dismiss my entire post as garbage when you open up with this laugher?

Heatran would be silly to swap in on Substitute and get hit by Earth Power or swap out with Skymin under a Sub.

I never said that Cresselia was a Garchomp counter. Why don't you try reading? Or better yet reading comprehension? I said it was a good switch-in to Garchomp, which is undeniably true. Jumpman's Scarf Trick Cresselia proves that even the words you put into my mouth are correct.

Jumpman's Cresselia works (and it's a good set, I admit). The most common variants of Cresselia switchin in on Chomp get KOed, but so do almost every other OU Pokemon.

Again, if you actually took the time to read and understand my post instead of just lashing out because I disagreed with you, you would have found that I already addressed this. I know what a counter is, I said that a check is good enough in every applicable in-battle situation. Who cares if my whole team is 4x weak to Grass if my scarf Heatran is about to Fire Blast your Skymin?

And which two of Skymin's moves OHKO Heatran? Earth Power and HP Ground? That doesnt really count...

Earth Power and Sub lead to trouble if Heatran swaps on them. I'll ignore the 4x Grass weak comment.


"Reading comprehension". I was illustrating the fact that I know how to play the current metagame and that I've been successful enough to know how to survive in it. It was serving to demonstrate that the changes brought on from Platinum are nice, but they are extremely hyped and overrated, as demonstrated by the blatantly false "its guaranteed one ko per match" line you tried to pull. If you read what I was responding to, you would realize that my statement here was to separate the parts of your post that were meaningless, off-topic hype and the parts that actually had substance.

The changes are not centralizing by any means, they have not changed the idea of the game, and no single change stands out as more overpowering than the other.

Assuming that the first sentence is true (which it really isn't, but I'll go along with it), if your main method of dealing damage is "prediction" then you are really in a hole from the get-go. If you have to GUESS what move to do in order to do damage, you won't be doing much damage at all against an intelligent player or against someone who is also predicting.

Ok, the guaranteed one ko per match was properly overstressed. But it's not unlikely. And there's counter prediction. Usually, Skymin comes out late game, when at least 5 out of everyone on both teams has been revealed.

Actually your calculation against Tyranitar is wrong, I know that for a fact. Timid Skymin can't guarantee an OHKO against 252 HP TTar unless it has Choice Specs.

372-438 Hlth is how much damage that Tar takes from a LO Seed Flare. It's a guaranteed OHKO with SR damage (which does 33 damage. So the min. damage done is 405, which is more than Tar's max Hlth (404)). I've done the check on http://pokedex-br.info/damage.html

I also want to reiterate Jump's point about how none of your calculations are really relevant. Gyarados? Gengar? Lucario? Zapdos also handles all of those pokemon, should it be uber? Also, how often are you going to be in 1-v-1 situations against those pokemon? +1 Gyarados can be faster, Luke will take Skymin down with it using ES and SR Damage, Gengar is most dangerous when its scarfed....Your messy vague damage calculations dont prove anything.

Ok, maybe a bit off topic. I was just doing some calculations on some of the most common OU pokemon, but yes, a bit off topic. However, I stated Scarfs can screw over Skymin, but Luke won't KO with ES and SR damage, while Skymin will with Earth Power.

All of your relevant Skymin calculations rely on that SpDef drop or being flinched in order for Skymin to come out on top at the end. On paper, that's fine and dandy. When actually playing the game, however, those are not good or reliable odds by any means.

I actually didn't mention any calculations that required flinch. 1 Seed Flare drop isn't reliable, but its more reliable than risking the receiving end if that SpDef drop means the difference between a KO or not.

Ok, and saying it was complete garbage was mean. Sorry.

 

[IggyBot]

339 attack vs 236*1.5 defense, 120 power(*1.5*2*1.3), 404 max HP: 80.2% - 94.55%

That's a max SpA, Timid Skymin vs 252 HP / 0 SpDef Tyranitar with Seed Flare. Your calculation is wrong, along with several other points that you have made.

Earth Power and Sub lead to trouble if Heatran swaps on them

And if Heatran switches into Air Slash or Seed Flare, Skymin has problems. Jrrrrrr never claimed Heatran to be a perfect counter to Skymin, but you seem to be assuming that Heatran will always be switching into a Earth Power or Substitute which simply isn't true.

Ok, the guaranteed one ko per match was properly overstressed. But it's not unlikely. And there's counter prediction. Usually, Skymin comes out late game, when at least 5 out of everyone on both teams has been revealed.

Yes, the one KO per match was a big stretch. There's no reason to use prediction in theorymon by the way, just throwing that out there. Both players have the ability to predict in a match, and trying to use it in an argument just leads to circles of "well X player can predict Air Slash but Y player out predicted that and did this instead" ect.

I can't comment on the late game part because that's your personal experience and I can't say anything against it.

 

[1234gjy]

I have absolutely no problem with Skymin, all it does is switch in, tries to seed flare, my timid scarf hetran comes in and it switches away, and it takes a chunk of SR damage. And it's special attack is not that scary, especially when it has to have max speed, air slash is usually a 2KO on even gengar, even with LO.

 

[Pip the Puffin]

I am getting a bit annoyed with everyone saying that Skymin does not hit hard. It has 120 base Sp. Attack, nothing to sniff at.

Generally, the defences aren't quite up to it. They aren't bad, they're just mediocreish. As stated before, Serene Grace is the only reason Skymin's any good. Grass is a horrible attacking type, but Flying isn't that bad. The Air Slashs do hurt.

If people get their way and Stealth Rock is banned, Skymin will have a much easier time in OU.

Mediocreish is my new word and I'll be adding it to the Oxford Dictionary tomorrow!=)

 

[CHENN]

Shaymin-S hits hard, but only with Seed Flare. Seed Flare is a 120 BP move, but with 85 Accuracy. It is one of the worst attacking types in the game, hitting Not Very Effective on 7 types. Also, with only 8 PP, Seed Flare will quickly run out. Air Slash and Earth Power are both weak, as Earth Power doesn't get STAB, and Air Slash just gets to over 100 BP after STAB.

Yes, 120 SpA is nothing to sniff at, but the fact is, Skymin can't use it very effectively. It relies on Flinch and Special Defense drops to keep dealing damage, and if it can't get lucky, it's dead.

There's no reason to use prediction in theorymon by the way, just throwing that out there. Both players have the ability to predict in a match, and trying to use it in an argument just leads to circles of "well X player can predict Air Slash but Y player out predicted that and did this instead" ect.

Agreeing with this. You could just as easily say that I subbed on a switch, leech seeded, causing another switch, then outpredicted the rest of the team, causing Skymin to sweep.

 

[Jumpman16]

psst reminder this thread is supposed to be more geared around the actual experiences with skymin on the ladder since it became the lone suspect, we already have a thread for "theorymon"

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Seed Flare's PP issues are only made worse by the fact that Zapdos, one of the biggest counters to it, has Pressure, which makes it pretty easy to break down Seed Flare's PP. Suicune, one of Seed Flare's biggest targets, also packs Pressure. Anyone packing spin support can use Moltres to resist the hell out of Seed Flare, which also packs Pressure.

Bottom line, Seed Flare isn't the kind of move that you can just throw around all the time. That said, it's the only outstanding attack Skymin has, and once it's out of it, it's not really all that threatening outside of a gajillion Air Slash flinches, which Togekiss does better with bulk, Roost, and Paralysis support.

Speaking of Togekiss, how in the hell did this get missed? Scarf Togekiss with its badass 85/115 Special Defenses can switch into Seed Flare with ease and finish it off with STAB Air Slash. Modest Life Orb Seed Flare does 37.62% - 44.37% max against 0 HP/0 Defense Togekiss. Timid with Lefties (Substitute set) only musters 26.37% - 31.19%. Neither one secures a 2KO on Togekiss, meaning it gets to come in on SR twice and still avoid the kill. Scarf Togekiss is an excellent check to a Skymin throwing around Seed Flares.

 

[Bourbon]

I don't have a problem with Skymin at all. I've only lost to it a couple of times, when it was spamming Air Slash and getting lucky. Seed Flare isn't really the deal breaker for me, it's the high speed coupled with Air Slash and Serene Grace.

So I'm OK with it. I'll ladder up, and unless someone discovers some new amazing set (like dual screen deoxys) that changes the game forever, I'll be voting "not uber".

 

[cim]

No Skymin has ever killed any member of any of my teams. Unlike Garchomp (I guess the standard for Uber), it is perfectly possible to adequately prepare for Sky Shaymin without going overboard and losing a Pokémon anyway.

Togekiss wasn't really missed, SDS. At least, I considered it common knowledge that Togekiss beats Skymin always and forever...

darknessmalice, if you're still not convinced in the flaws of your argument (Jump and j7r did a great job as always), see what happens when you put a decided nonUber in there. I could use your rationale and wording to hype up several "uncounterable" pokemon (Heracross and Togekiss are the perennial examples I use, but yeah).

 

[RaikouLover]

I hope Crobat was mentioned as a surefire counter... I don't even think HP Ice OHKOs it if it switches in on it (probably requires life orb and stealth rock).

Dragonite anyone? I posted a Dragonite set that counter's Skymin pretty much 100%. A Timid Life Orbed HP Ice doesn't even OHKO that sucker, Air Slash can't flinch, and Seed Flare does a whooping 9%...

Not only that, anything with a Scarf forces it out. The #1 Pokemon in the game is a surefire check. Hell, Scizor is a surefire check.

This thing is underwhelming. I'll take Togekiss any day.

 

[Darkmalice]

I hope Crobat was mentioned as a surefire counter... I don't even think HP Ice OHKOs it if it switches in on it (probably requires life orb and stealth rock).

Dragonite anyone? I posted a Dragonite set that counter's Skymin pretty much 100%. A Timid Life Orbed HP Ice doesn't even OHKO that sucker, Air Slash can't flinch, and Seed Flare does a whooping 9%...

Not only that, anything with a Scarf forces it out. The #1 Pokemon in the game is a surefire check. Hell, Scizor is a surefire check.

This thing is underwhelming. I'll take Togekiss any day.

Yeah, Scarf Pokemon screw over Skymin. It's pretty easy to revenge kill. And the Tar calc was wrong (with SR damage, there is a chance of OHKO with Seed Flare, but it's less than 50%).

Crobat, if he swaps in on SR and LO Air Slash (does 181-214 damage to 0 SpD neutral nature Crobat), and then Brave Birds Skymin (which should OHKO), Crobat dies from recoil.

And I'm not against people saying Scizor and Heatran are surefire checks. But I'm against stuff like "Heatran renders Skymin useless," "Skymin is underwhelming" and "Skymin is all about luck." It does hit hard (its 120 STAB with a 68% chance of double SpD drop off 339 SpcAtt), and swapping to an appropriate counter requires prediction and counter prediction.

Both players have the ability to predict in a match, and trying to use it in an argument just leads to circles of "well X player can predict Air Slash but Y player out predicted that and did this instead" ect.

More proof that Skymin relies on prediction.

Luck is usually only relied upon if the chance arrives (and it's likely it will occur - 1 Air Slash flinch or 1 Seed Flare SpDrop). Neither is reliable, but it's more likely to succeed than fail. And the Evasion Clause is set to prevent moves from creating a 33% that you will miss attacks (increased to 50% after two double teams, which means 1 miss is still less likely than 1 Skymin "hax"). If Skymin's luck is better in terms of probability than double team, which is made useless by Evasion Clause, wouldn't that alone set a case for Skymin being uber? I'm actually asking a question, I'm not concluding that she's uber.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Every pokemon can be a threat if the user is relying on prediction. That doesn't make Skymin special, or even necessarily good. Skymin users can be dangerous when they "predict" correctly, but so can Snorlax users.

And to answer your question, no that is not a case for it being Uber. There are lots of things that are better than Double Team in terms of luck that we already allow. Your argument can be applied to anything that has the Serene Grace ability, any paraflinching pokemon, any Focus Energy Scope Lens Super Luck Absol using Night Slash, etc etc. Again, that doesnt make Skymin unique or prove that it's even good let alone broken. You are really arguing against Serene Grace, not against Skymin.

Your argument would actually be much more applicable to Togekiss who can get even luckier than Skymin by abusing paralysis and by staying alive longer to abuse the luck for more of the match. If that is your position, then you should at least be consistent and argue for the banning of Togekiss.

 

[Darkmalice]

And to answer your question, no that is not a case for it being Uber. There are lots of things that are better than Double Team in terms of luck that we already allow. Your argument can be applied to anything that has the Serene Grace ability, any paraflinching pokemon, any Focus Energy Scope Lens Super Luck Absol using Night Slash, etc etc. Again, that doesnt make Skymin unique or prove that it's even good let alone broken. You are really arguing against Serene Grace, not against Skymin.

Your argument would actually be much more applicable to Togekiss who can get even luckier than Skymin by abusing paralysis and by staying alive longer to abuse the luck for more of the match. If that is your position, then you should at least be consistent and argue for the banning of Togekiss.

What if Skymin's Air Slash flinch or Seed Flare SpDrop means the difference between a KO or not?

Togekiss usually has Leftovers and 4 SpA EVs, so he's less likely to have a flinch with the chance of a KO, while this is much more likely with Skymin's 252 SpA EVs and LO boost. Togekiss is also much slower than Skymin (0 Speed EVs off neutral nature 80 base speed compared to 252 Speed EVs Timid nature 127 base speed, even outrunning Weavile). Togekiss usually needs 1 turn, in order to use Thunderwave/Body Slam before having the ability to flinch, which is blocked by Ground/Ghost Pokemon. Skymin usually doesn't need paralysis support to flinch. Scarf users do stop Skymin, but priority moves stop both Skymin and Togekiss flinch (ignoring an unlikely 25% chance of paralysis).

The same argument can be used for Focus Energy Absol, who requires 1 turn to use Focus Energy (and lacks the speed to sweep without Sucker Punch, and even a max chance crit move (50% with all possible buffs) is less likely than Skymin's 2 available "haxs").
And, yes of course that a Stone Edge missing Salamance can result in a KO of the pokemon using Stone Edge, but that scenario can't apply to Ice Beam and other moves barring conditions like Hustle.


And Sand Veil was one (definitely not the only one, but it was one) of the reasons Garchomp was declared uber, as the 20% chance of a miss on Chomp could completely screw up a counter (which required Sandstorm). This same scenario could be applied to a Blissey getting a flinch on Blissey/Zapdos, preventing her/it from using Ice Beam/Heat Wave, putting her/it in KO range of Seed Flare, except Skymin has more chance of success (and does not require any initiation conditions e.g. Sandstorm).

 

[Setrack]

shaymin-s should, obviously, not be banned to uber. its less uber than a garchomp is (garchomp isnt uber by the way)

 

[Syberia]

Garchomp is uber, actually (look at the tier list), and that's totally irrelevant to this discussion.

 

[locopoke]

shaymin-s should, obviously, not be banned to uber. its less uber than a garchomp is (garchomp isnt uber by the way)

What the hell are you talking about. Do you even battle on Shoddy? Shaymin-S (in my opinion) is far too broken for the OU Tier, and Garchomp needs to stay in Ubers too.

They should have a restriction on stupid comments like that <_<

 

[C. Falcon]

On paper its Uber, inpractice I'd say its OU due to all the priority moves around, Dragon Dance pokemon outspeeding it after a Dragon Dance most of the time, Timid Scarftran (Even Tyranitar can speedtie with it after a DD) and SR.

People were even saying it could beat Blissey. Lol.

 

[Syberia]

Tyranitar does not speed tie it after a Dragon Dance. 364 < 388. But Tyranitar can survive Seed Flare (if it's at full health with max HP and a bit of Sp. Def) and kill back with Stone Edge.