Little Cup Metagame (revived)

RicepigeonKKM

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Well seeing as I've recently gotten back in to Pokemon, I decided to revive a discussion about one of my favorite metagame proposals from before I left: the Little Cup.

Most of this is copypasta from the older topic, but should still hold true.

Basic summary of Little Cup according to Thorn's ADV Little Cup Guide:

- Sleep Clause
- Only Pokemon hatched from eggs are eligible.
- Eligible Pokemon must be able to evolve, and be the first in an evolution chain. So, no Lv5 Skarm, or Lv5 Blissey.
- Item Clause is in effect.
- All Pokemon used MUST be Lv5.
- Selfdestruct Clause is on.
- Sonicboom and Dragon Rage are banned.
- Evasion/accuracy moves are NOT allowed.
- OHKO moves are NOT allowed.
- Chansey, Scyther, & Meditite are banned.
Click to expand...

Just for reference, in Little Cup, 196 EVs has the same effect as 255 EVs (the max)

Since certain Pokemon received evolutions and/or pre-evolutions, the eligibility list has been changed. For example, Chansey by definition is no longer eligible now that Chansey has Happiny as a pre-evolution.

New Eligible Pokemon:
Turtwig
Chimchar
Piplup
Starly
Bidoof
Kricketot
Shinx
Budew
Cranidos
Sheildon
Burmy
Combee
Buizel
Cherubi
Shellos
Drifloon
Buneary
Glameow
Chingling
Stunky
Bronzor
Bonsly
Mime Jr.
Happiny
Gible
Munchlax
Riolu
Hippopotas
Skorupi
Croagunk
Finneon
Mantyke
Snover

Previously ineligible Pokemon that are now eligible
Tangela*
Lickitung*
Aipom
Murkrow*
Misdreavus*
Sneasel*
Yanma*
Nosepass*

Anything denoted with a * indicates an agreed-upon ban for this Pokemon.

Previously eligible Pokemon that are now ineligible
Chansey

Some facts

- Cranidos only needs 14 speed to outspeed everything with Choice Scarf, including Voltorb, Elekid, and Diglett. This doesn't include other Scarf users.
- Max Sp.Atk, Modest, Choice Specs Abra has a chance to OHKO Max HP, Max Sp.Def Munchlax with a Neutral nature.

Potential Movesets

Abra @; Choice Specs/Scarf
76 HP, 196 Speed, 236 Sp.Atk
Modest/Timid
- Psychic
- Energy Ball
- HP Fighting/Water
- Shadow Ball

A real beast If I can say so. Energy Ball obliterates Larvitar, HP Fighting can OHKO Houndour, one of Abra's best counters in ADV, and Munchlax. Shadow Ball can rip apart Abras, Duskulls, Gastlys (but you have Psychic for that), and lets you hit Bronzor for neutral damage.

Personal Opinion
- Mime Jr. looks sort of promising. It has a max of 279 Sp.Def at lv.100, AND the ability to nullify any Super Effective attacks against it to normal damage.

- Taillow may still overshadow Starly, as the two have the same stats except speed, which Taillow still dominates Starly in. Taillow has access to Guts, while Starly has to deal with Keen Eye until it evolves.

- Hippopotas and Snover introduce permanent weather into Little Cup play, ADV Little Cup had none as Kyogre/Groudon are banned and Larvitar doesn't get Sandstream. Combined with Hippopotas, Larvitar and Gible become forces to reckon with, but using two ground types isn't exactly something I would use myself.

- Abra unfortunately loses the Elemental punches, but his access to all Hidden Power types, Special Shadow Ball for other Psychics, and Energy Ball make up for it. He gets Grass Knot as well, but not that many Pokemon in Little Cup are heavy enough to make Grass Knot worth the use. Now with Choice Specs, combined with his already high speed, can make Abra just as good in DP Little Cup as he was in GSC and ADV Little Cup.

- Houndour loses Crunch, but gains Dark Pulse, Nasty Plot, and Will-o-Wisp in its place. It can still counter Abra's Psychic, Shadow Ball, and Energy Ball, but the fact Abra can now use HP Water/Fighting with its Sp/Atk stat may reduce Houndour's use.

- Anorith is pretty fast, and has access to Stealth Rock, gets double stab on X-Scissor and Stone Edge, can boost speed with Rock Polish. Abra can still rape it without speed boosts, though, but at least its resistant to Hippopotas's Sandstream.

Any ideas are welcome.
 
Although Murkrow was discussed being unbanned, the addition of Heat Wave is immense as well as Sucker Punch. It actually makes a Calm Mind set viable thanks to Heat Wave.
 
You might want to mention Gliscor...and I suppose Diglett. But mostly Gliscor, as it falls into a category you listed.
 
TeaBag said:
Item Clause is not in effect IIRC.
Click to expand...

Yeah it would be impossible to enforce, but I still listed it for historical purposes.

Colonel M said:
Although Murkrow was discussed being unbanned, the addition of Heat Wave is immense as well as Sucker Punch. It actually makes a Calm Mind set viable thanks to Heat Wave.
Click to expand...

Had Murkrow gotten Nasty Plot, you could pretty much kiss him goodbye from LC. Still, his imcreased CH rate, combine that with Air Cutter's already high CH and STAB...

Timid, Super Luck
- Calm Mind
- Heat Wave
- Dark Pulse
- Air Cutter/HP Ground/Sucker Punch

Plus Murkrow's speed is the same as Abra's in LC, assuming 196 EVs and neutral natures. I guess Suckerpunch could work in there over AC/HP but Abra probably won't be staying in.

EDIT: Seems like there was already an article on LC while I was gone:
http://www.smogon.com/dp/articles/little_cup#standards

But as far as I can tell it doesn't seem to cover Platinum. *coughMurkrowcough*
 
there is a little cup forums for this sort of thing, and there are people working on it, so I'll see if I can find you the link:

Here it is!
 
Search button ftw. You would have found that Little Cup has a large following on its own forums, and many of the things you say here don't actually apply to the metagame.

That said, I'll get back to this later. LC is an awesome metagame, and more people need to play it.

EDIT: The real official Little Cup rules.

Little Cup Rules:
Pokémon: Players are allowed a team of up to 6 Pokémon that meet the following conditions:
  • The Pokémon must have hatched from an egg.
  • The Pokémon must be able to evolve.
  • The Pokémon must be the earliest evolution stage obtainable.
  • The Pokémon must be at Level 5.
  • The Pokémon must not be on the Ubers list.

Species Clause - Only one Pokémon may be on a team from each species.

Ubers - The following are banned from use in Little Cup:

Scyther
Yanma
Sneasel
Meditite
Tangela

Items and Moves:

Items: Pokémon in Little Cup are allowed to hold items, as in any Pokémon match. The "Item Clause" is not in effect in Little Cup, multiple teammates can hold the same item. The item Deepseatooth is banned.

Moves: Pokémon in Little Cup can use (nearly) any move available to them at Level 5; for non-genderless Pokémon this includes level up moves. Sonicboom and Dragon Rage are both banned moves.

OHKO Clause - Moves that score a guaranteed "One-hit-KO" on the opponent, such as Sheer Cold, Horn Drill, Guillotine, or Fissure, are banned.

Battle Mechanics:

Sleep Clause - Only one Pokémon can be put to sleep by an opponent at a time, per team.

Self-KO Clause - If an opponent uses Selfdestruct or Explosion with their last Pokémon, they lose the game regardless of the number of Pokémon remaining on the other team.

EVs: Contrary to some beliefs, it has been proven that even with a level 5 baby, any EV spread is possible on any Pokémon by way of the "Box trick". Thus, the standard in game maximum of 255 EVs per stat, 510 EVs total is the only limitation on EVs in Little Cup.

I'll post more later, but this metagame is really on hold until the Platinum changes are implemented. Doug's taking forever on this and it's kinda a pain for us.
 
There's currently a very heavy lean towards ban, but it can't be proven until the Platinum updates come online. I honestly think Sucker Punch / Heat Wave / Drill Peck / Substitute MixKrow is pretty much the thing that will prove it to be broken, as it 2HKOs the entire metagame easily, has strong STAB priority, and excellent speed.
 
Lol the OP is horribly inaccurate, at least it's not the metagame LCF proposes. Also, no one plays at Level 100 because then it's just "artificial subset of UU"

Previously ineligible Pokemon that are now eligible
Tangela*
Lickitung*
Aipom
Murkrow*
Misdreavus*
Sneasel*
Yanma*
Nosepass*
Click to expand...
This is pretty much entirely wrong. "Agreed upon ban" by who? Not Little Cup players at least :/ Nosepass isn't broken at all, nor is Lickitung. MissyD isn't banned, but it's top OU.

196 EVs does not max out a stat. It entirely depends on the base how many EVs you need.

If you want to work on Little Cup though, you're more than welcome to come to the Little Cup Forums to discuss stuff. But I'd strongly advise you edit out your OP so that there's no confusion among players in a small metagame.

Oh, the on site article sucks too. We need to bribe someone to put Dixie's up temporarily until it's done.
 
We were going to wait for Pt updates to be fully implemented on NFEs (as it is only some have the new moves) before making a discussion thread and getting LC into full swing.. but as you have done it already we may as well start!

So yea, LC has been developed a lot since you left. Here is a quick (or not) run through of what has been going on:

A lot of what we did was in the Little Cup Metagame Development thread (And before that the Little Cup Metagame thread), we made a good few analyses and a few other useful things (I made Speed Tiers, Mr. Happy made a guide to EVs at Lv. 5.) we then asked Great Sage about the possibility of putting the analysis on site and making a forum for us to construct them (Writing ~5 analysis at a time in one thread is near impossible). That was rejected at the time, but after a while when ti bace clear that things were not working on a single thread I made the LCF as a place for us to work on resources for LC players with the goal of getting them all on Smogon when they reached the right quality and when LC had enough of a user base. We currently have more than 50 analysis that are in a finished forum, many of which are waiting for platinum updates as well as a guide to EV training (in game), making EV spreads, move legality (and a list of all illegal moves and move combos specific to Lv. 5), LC Breeding guide, and an extremely useful tool for calculating stats.

We have a LC ladder on Doug's CaP server and a find tab on Smogon U server, which should pick up in activity now that it is known that teh Choice Glitch is solved. We even have some useage stats from the ladder and an OU list thanks to Doug and X-Act, info here.

More recently LC has had a bit of a slowdown, but we expect that to pick up once Pt tutor moves are added (and the publicity from this thread should help).

So if you want to learn a exciting and very fast paced metagame come and check it out! Doug's server is the best place to find a battle if there are people there, but the Smogon Server often has a few people on the LC find tab.

And the on site guide does not exactly "suck" but it is very outdated and should not be used for reference. Many of the bans were found to be not needed or useful and we have had to impose several of our own to keep the balance.

And replying to some of your points:
Item Clause is not in effect IIRC.
Click to expand...
 Yeah it would be impossible to enforce, but I still listed it for historical purposes.
Click to expand...
The item clause issue was discussed here, and unanimously we agreed that it was not useful. Basically no item is has a large negative impact on the metagame and adding the clause would make team building harder without clear benefits.


Had Murkrow gotten Nasty Plot, you could pretty much kiss him goodbye from LC. Still, his imcreased CH rate, combine that with Air Cutter's already high CH and STAB...

Timid, Super Luck
- Calm Mind
- Heat Wave
- Dark Pulse
- Air Cutter/HP Ground/Sucker Punch

Plus Murkrow's speed is the same as Abra's in LC, assuming 196 EVs and neutral natures. I guess Suckerpunch could work in there over AC/HP but Abra probably won't be staying in.
Click to expand...
Well.. that set is not that useful.. and Sucker Punch is the main part of the argement for its banning.
With SP it can revenge a massive majority of sweepers (includeing Scarfers or Speed boosted opponents) and avoid being revenge killed in the way that you can for other Pokemon.
Maybe people think it is too strong, but there are still a few who disagree. Most still think we should wait for reliant and accurate testing (with Pt tutor moves) before a final choice.
There is an 8 page discussion on its status here if anyone wants more info.
 
I've always been thinking of getting into LC. This is very interesting. Sorry if this is not the right place, but could one of you LC players tell me why hippopatas is so low on the useage? Its stat look solid (has more attack than croagunk or elekid!) and its ability is the only auto weather. I would think that pokes like Rhyhorn or Lileep could do a lot better if given sand support.
 
ChouToshio said:
I've always been thinking of getting into LC. This is very interesting. Sorry if this is not the right place, but could one of you LC players tell me why hippopatas is so low on the useage? Its stat look solid (has more attack than croagunk or elekid!) and its ability is the only auto weather. I would think that pokes like Rhyhorn or Lileep could do a lot better if given sand support.
Click to expand...

Well, I don't know much, but I'll take a whack at it...

For one, Hippopotas' and Elekid's Attack both max at 17. It just takes less EVs to max Hippopotas' Attack. Croagunk's Attack does max at 16, though.

I assume that was a typo when you said the only auto weather, as it is actually just the only auto Sandstorm. I'm not exactly sure entirely...but other than its ability, I'd bet that it is rather outclassed by Gligar in physical walling.
 
I've always been thinking of getting into LC. This is very interesting. Sorry if this is not the right place, but could one of you LC players tell me why hippopatas is so low on the useage? Its stat look solid (has more attack than croagunk or elekid!) and its ability is the only auto weather. I would think that pokes like Rhyhorn or Lileep could do a lot better if given sand support.
Click to expand...
I've only played LC a little myself, but Speed is incredibly important in LC since everything tends to be so powerful, and Hippopotas has only 1 (useful) resist and one immunity, so that hurts it quite a bit.

Anyways, as eric said, there's a LC ladder on the CaP server, so that's the place to go if you're looking for matches.
 
Whoah, damn LC really take off didn't it?

So yeah, I suppose most of my original post is horribly outdated. Now I'm wondering if this topic has a purpose now?

Still, glad to see that theres actually a forums devoted to the LC metagame. Maybe I should look into a less developed and less known metagame (Petit Cup perhaps?)
 
I think the Murkrow with that set is pretty broken. It's almost like Toxicroak with Focus Punch in Rain, except Murkrow has awesome speed in LC and hard to wall against.

Somebody should edit that Chansey is not allowed since now it's a second stage Pokemon. Why would anyone allow it?
 
ChouToshio said:
I've always been thinking of getting into LC. This is very interesting. Sorry if this is not the right place, but could one of you LC players tell me why hippopatas is so low on the useage? Its stat look solid (has more attack than croagunk or elekid!) and its ability is the only auto weather. I would think that pokes like Rhyhorn or Lileep could do a lot better if given sand support.
Click to expand...
Hippo is a decent Pokemon and really should see more use, the main reason it has not been used much is due to the small pool of LC players. Basically less players = less teams so more statistical "noise". This means that some very useful Pokemon have low use simply because no one laddered with a team that includes them.

Hippo's main advantage is as an anti Sash Pokemon that does not need to set up SR, as well a a decent physical tank. I ran it on my first ever LC team and it works ok.

RicepigeonKKM said:
Whoah, damn LC really take off didn't it?

So yeah, I suppose most of my original post is horribly outdated. Now I'm wondering if this topic has a purpose now?
Click to expand...
Well yes it does. This topic should be useful to show more people about the LC metagame, especially if you can update the OP with some more recent info.
Still, glad to see that theres actually a forums devoted to the LC metagame. Maybe I should look into a less developed and less known metagame (Petit Cup perhaps?)
Click to expand...
Even though the LCF has a lot of info, guides and analyses and we even have a ladder ect.. LC not quite a generally excepted metagame like Ubers or UU, and the number who play it is tiny in comparison.
If you were to help us out and try to get LC really off the ground it would be brilliant. I am on Doug's CaP server quite a bit if you want to talk, so are most of the mods/admins and active people from the LCF.

If you want a really unkown metagame then I would recomend LC-Ubers (I know of only 5 people who play it, but its fun! There is a preliminary guide here if you want it) or LC-UU (once we get stats with less "noise" it should be clearer) or even some of the past-gen LCs which Lord Vader and Kannon are doing some reaserch into on netbattle.
 
eric the espeon said:
Hippo is a decent Pokemon and really should see more use, the main reason it has not been used much is due to the small pool of LC players. Basically less players = less teams so more statistical "noise". This means that some very useful Pokemon have low use simply because no one laddered with a team that includes them.

Hippo's main advantage is as an anti Sash Pokemon that does not need to set up SR, as well a a decent physical tank. I ran it on my first ever LC team and it works ok.
Click to expand...

And it provides sandstream to make onix into the best murkrow counter in the game and outside of Bronzor and Gligar is probably the best sturdy SR users available although it doesn't help that the latter two outclass it in everything else.
 
This has had the intended consequence of getting a lot more discussion of the Little Cup metagame in Smogon Shoddy. Thanks, OP!

Doug's ladder is working now, you'll see me on the leaderboard soon.
 
SkarmBlissCounter said:
And it provides sandstream to make onix into the best murkrow counter in the game and outside of Bronzor and Gligar is probably the best sturdy SR users available although it doesn't help that the latter two outclass it in everything else.
Click to expand...
mm the SpD boost for Rocks can come in handy sometimes, but as you say it does have problems competing with Gligar, other then getting SS up.
 
It's OHKOed by HP Ice Anything a lot less. If I recall you only need like 10 Special Attack to OHKO Gligar.
 
Yea, but the Ground immunity, Grass neutrality, Fighting resistance, Bug resistance and extra STAB more than make up for the 4x Ice weakness and the loss of Rock resist. Especially as most of the common ice users (bar specific things like HP Ice Diglett) should 1KO with Ice Beam normally.

Also Gligar has considerably better stats, same max HP, 1 more Atk, 4 more Def, 3 more SpD, 6 more Spe. Bear in mind that ~20 in a stat is pretty amazing in LC and a single point can make a big difference.

Hippo does have one thing over Gligar in Sand Stream (Slightly different resists/weaks and Stats that need less Ev investment help) but other than that its pretty thin on the ground.
 
Vader's First Post!

First post, woot.

I'm going to veer away from the Hippo/Gligar debate and talk about some of my experiences in Little Cup, opinions, and advertise LC Ubers.

In particular, I want to talk about Move Priority's importance in the current Metagame, as well as the prominence of Choice Scarf, as well as the decline of Specs and Band. When I began Little Cup, around July, there were not nearly as many players as there are now, and the LCF was much smaller. It took a few matches to realize how quickly this Metagame moved, and how difficult it would be to try and figure it out on my own. I quickly discovered that Priority Moves were very effective in such a speed-oriented Metagame, a lesson that I've kept in mind to this day.

In particular, I found two Pokemon that used Priorty very well, one of whom is now a top-OU threat: Croagunk and Carvanha. When I began, I saw nearly no Croagunk, despite his many uses and Water-immunity. I used a less-than-effective set, with Sucker Punch/Vacuum Wave/Bullet Punch/Fake Out. Croagunk's popularity either suddenly jumped in the second or third week of my playing, or I had simply not been playing people who used it. I noticed almost immediately that they ran Nasty Plot, as well as other moves I had not thought of using, such as Earthquake and Dark Pulse.

Carvanha has not yet gained the popularity it desverves, in my opinion, but is another powerful priority-user with high offensive stats and decent typing. Possibly in part due to its being countered by Croagunk, the #2 most-used LC Pokemon, Carvanha is only a BL Pokemon. However, with the most power Aqua Jet in the game and the ability to 2KO Bronzor through Oran with Hydro Pump, it may one day achieve OU Status.

I also noticed several other things about the Metagame as time went on, several fundamental changes that slowly made my old team obsolete and required the making of a new one. First was the decline of ScarfQuil leads in favor of Fake-Turner Meowth ones that cut through my team like butter. The next, and perhaps most important, was the advent of Elekid and Voltorb, two of the fastest Pokemon the Metagame. You see, previously I had been using my own BellyWag set, a set that allowed me to go from even a 5-1 to a 1-0 in a few turns. Poliwag, though frail, became a powerhouse after a Belly Drum and easily tore through anything, be it Croagunk or Diglett. However, Elekid and Voltorb both maxed speed at 20, one point higher than what Poliwag could hit. Additionally, they both had Super-Effective STAB moves to dispatch with him, making him obsolete as a late-game sweeper.

Yet another change that prompted me to alter my team was the increase in Scarfers, Diglett in particular. Murkrow, Munchlax, and Machop had become much more popular. Anorith, formerly one of my prime sweepers, was suddenly almost useless. Despite his high attack and Speed, he could not harm Machop without Aerial Ace, and was in turn OHKO'd by Bullet Punch. His weakness to Aqua Jet was also a major hinderance to my team. Munchlax walling almost all of my team with its large HP and easily KOing 2-3 of my Pokemon had me looking for something to stop it. That something was Elekid, present in nearly all of my teams. I also sought out stat-boosting Pokemon that could take a hit, a role that Gligar filled perfectly.

However, perhaps the most drastic change to the Metagame since I have started playing it is the usage of Substitute and Baton Pass. With SubKrow, SubCM Missy/Abra and SubPunch Croagunk/Machop, many Pokemon have been taking advantage of this move. The ability to allow oneself a free turn is an incredible prospect, and Pokemon such as Abra and Murkrow can easily decimate an opposing team that lacks appropiate checks. In fact, it is almost solely because of this move that Murkrow is such a dangerous Pokemon. With a Sub up, nothing can safely come in and beat it one-on-one due to its high offensive stats and STAB Sucker Punch and Pluck.

Baton Pass's effect, while considerably less drastic, still has an enormous effect on the Metagame. With Gligar being able to pass Speed while still taking any non-Ice attack, slow but strong Pokemon are easily set up for a sweep, such as Clamperl prior to Deepseatooth's ban. I have only recently taken notice of how devastating Baton Pass is, but it certainly has an effect on the Metagame. I myself have used a Drifloon to pass Substitutes and Calm Minds as well as a Salac boost to an Abra for an easy sweep. In fact, a well-played Baton Pass can easily win the match in such an offensive Metagame.

In September, I decided I would spearhead the effort to make a Metagame based around the Ubers in Little Cup, fast and powerful monsters that easily obliterate normal Little Cup Pokemon. This Metagame proved to be very fun to play, with special precautions needing to be taken in order to succeed against a team that also contained monsters like Scyther, Yanma, Meditite, Sneasel and Tangela. It became apparent that Scyther liked Agility, while Sneasel liked Swords Dance due to how they were made. Yanma proved that a Speed-Boosting Pokemon in what is potentially the most offensive Metagame was king. Meditite's raw power from Pure Power let it tear through opposing teams.

The Metagame is, as Dixie once put it, "top-heavy as fuck," but quite exciting to play. Though one player could be comfortably in the lead one turn, they could just as easily be losing the next. Stealth Rock runs rampant to cripple opposing Ubers, and unorthodox Pokemon such as Squirtle carve themselves niches with particular resists and movepools. Though very few people currently play this Metagame, I have personally written what I consider a comprehensive guide on how to play the game, found in the LCF's Guide section.

Sorry my post was so long and not about the debate at hand, but I wanted to post my thoughts on how the Metagame has developed and how I personally have adapted to the Metagame. Hopefully this thread will net us some more players!
 
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