Little Cup Metagame Development

[eric the espeon]

Little Cup Metagame Development

From this thread we will promote and expand the fast paced and fun new metagame of Little Cup.

I will post links to all relevant info about Little Cup in this post.
The old thread

The Little Cup Forum

We now have our own Little Cup Forum to work on Little Cup Analysis and Guides, they will still all be posted in this thread, but only once they are complete.

Most of the stuff we have writen is ONLY on the LCF right now. We plan to arrange to have it all put up on Smogon at some future stage but for now it is by far the best place to look.

From now on please post new Guides, Analysis or anything smiler in the forum, once a mod (on the LC Forum) approves it you may post it here and it will be linked to.
If you have written a LC analysis or Guide please repost it on the new forum.

The Little Cup Wiki

To try to improve the quality of our Analysis and Guides we have chosen to start a Wiki, the format of a Wiki is also easier to read then Forums.

Not that much of our stuff has been loaded onto it yet but it is progressing.

Little Cup Analysis:
For many more analysis (and up to date versions of these) please view our Analysis Workshop on the Little Cup forum, or our new Analysis list on the Wiki which has only a few of the Analysis right now but is in a better format.
Otherwise here are the ones that are on Smogon.

Ubers

Tangela

OU

Abra
Bronzor
Buizel
Cranidos
Cyndaquil
Dratini
Diglett
Elekid
Gligar
Magby
Meowth
Misdreavus
Munchlax
Murkrow
Ponyta
Rhyhorn
Snover
Staryu

BL

Aron
Bagon
Buneary
Cubone
Eevee
Exeggcute
Geodude
Houndour
Lickitung
Makuhita
Mankey
Mantyke
Porygon
Psyduck
Rattata
Teddiursa
Treecko
Wynaut
Zigzagoon
Totodile and Croagunk

Other (UU/UUBL/NU)

Remoraid
Shinx
Spinarak
Squirtle

Useful Guides/Information:
(More (and more up to date versions of these) in the Guides section of the LC forums.)
Little Cup Tiers
Little Cup Speed Tiers
A guide to making EV spreads for Little Cup
A guide to Move Legality in Little Cup
Smogon's on-site guide to Little Cup (Rules and Banned list are quite outdated)

Little Cup Warstorys:
By ODDish
By DN/SkarmBlissCounter
By tentaintcool
By PirateDelux
By KinglerDude24

Other stuff:
A very useful Little Cup Stat Calculator
Proof that you can get any EV spread at Lv 5
On Site Little Cup Analysis Workshop
A Brilliant RMT by Kinglerdude24

Rules and Clauses for Little Cup matches
Sleep Clause
Self KO Clause
Only Pokemon that can evolve, but have not are allowed (so Machop is allowed, but even though Machoke is not the final stage it has evolved once so it is automatically banned. Any Pokemon that is in its final stage is also banned.).
All Pokemon must be lv. 5 (Levels 1, 30, 50 and 100 are used by some people, but Lv 5 is by far the most common)
The moves Dragon Rage and Sonicboom are banned.
OHKO clause


Banned Pokemon:
The "Uber Tier" Of Little Cup.

Scyther
Reason: Sword Dance, Agility great Attack/Speed, Technician Quick Attack and a nice movepool make it near unstoppable. It has not been tested yet due to this post, it may be moved to under testing at some future time.
Yanma
Reason: Speed Boost. It sweeps with ease in a metagame so focused on speed. Hypnosis for those it can't 1KO.
Sneasel
Reason: High Attack and Speed, its STAB Ice Shard+Sword Dance 1KOs most Scarfers that try to revenge kill it.
Meditite
Reason: VERY high attack and high powered STAB moves (so high it can 1KO Bronzor without any boosts using a neutral STAB attack) and decent speed (scarf can give it 24 speed so not easy to revenge kill).
Tangela
Reason: Great Def and Sp.A, the Sunny Day set is near unstoppable. Can sweep teams with ease. The wall set is not broken, but we can't ban movesets.
Clamperl (only with Deepseatooth):
Reason:
A massive 36 Sp.A and decent defenses, if your team can pass speed or set up Trick Room tis thing will take down a few Pokemon. It may be retested and possibly unbanned at some stage.

Under Testing:
Feel free to suggest Pokemon to be moved here (remember to back up your arguments).

Murkrow

What you can do to help promote Little Cup:

Play the game, most of the LC players go to DJD's server as there is a LC ladder there. The Server's address and port can be found here.
Join the Little Cup Forum, most of the stuff we do is there.
Help to rewrite the on site guide.
Write a guide on a specific part of Little Cup.
Help us construct a tier list and threat list for Little Cup.
Talk about it and tell other people.
Discuss any "under testing" Pokemon.
Write a good Little Cup RMT or Warstory.
Write an Analysis for a Pokemon, or comment on some else's to help them improve it. Please do not post single movesets or incomplete analysis, we don't expect you to get it perfect first draught but at least write each section, use this format for analysis. Post Analysis in the Forum's Analysis Workshop.

Smogon's high up members have decided (for now) not to put the Little Cup Analysis on site, but don't let that stop you from writing them as I will put a link to them in this OP so they can be accsesed by players.

[Evil Hamster]

Imo, links to the individual posts as opposed to the threads make it a bit easier to work out. Sorry for hijacking your thread and all :p

Eevee analysis.
Magby analysis.
Murkrow analysis.
Cyndaquil analysis.
Totodile and Croagunk analyses.
Rattata analysis.
Porygon analysis.

Little Cup speed tiers.

For Porygon, I would consider at least mentioning Trace somewhere, probably in other optiosn; if only because revenge killing Diglett can make a sweep with the likes of Abra considerably easier. Will write out another analysis in a few minutes; haven't chosen yet :p Leaning towards Ponyta though.

[eric the espeon]

yea that was what I was trying to do, but I did not know how....

Editing Trace into other options for Porygon.

[Evil Hamster]

Treecko analysis;



[SET]
name: Anti-lead
move 1: Endeavour
move 2: Counter
move 3: Energy Ball
move 4: Hidden Power Fire
item: Focus Sash
nature: Hasty
evs: 36 HP / 236 SpA / 196 Spe
ivs: 0 Def

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Treecko has many alluring advantages that make him idea for a lead; this set exhibits two of them. The focus of the set is on using Treecko's low defense to his advantage, by taking a powerful hit, staying alive with the Focus Sash, and using Counter for a probable OHKO. The fun doesn't end there though; seeing as Treecko is relatively quick, he can probably Endeavor whatever comes out next to all but KO it. The Focus Sash will also leave you in Overgrow range, giving Energy Ball a 1.5x boost. Hidden Power Fire provides good coverage in tandem with Energy Ball.</p>

<p>This can work when not used as a lead, but it is not recommended, as if Stealth Rock goes up or Hippopotas or Snover make an appearance, then this Treecko is as good as worthless. It also has very few opportunities to switch in, so using it as a lead is probably the way you'll get the most out of it.</p>

[SET]
name: Alternate anti-lead
move 1: Grasswhistle
move 2: Leaf Storm
move 3: Hidden Power Fire
move 4: Focus Punch
item: Focus Sash
nature: Hasty
evs: 236 SpA / 76 SpD / 196 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set utilites Treecko's two other decent options for use as a lead; Grasswhistle and Leaf Storm. Whilst these are unavailable on the first set as they are illegal with Counter and Endeavor, this set still makes a very efficient lead. Sleep something with Grasswhistle, and you'll just about live thanks to the Focus Sash. That leaves you, again, in Overgrow range, and in a position to unleash an obscenely powerful boosted Leaf Storm at whatever comes in. Hidden Power Fire hits most of the things that resist Leaf Storm, whilst Focus Punch allows for a harder hit on Munchlax.</p>

<p>If you wanted, you could try replacing Focus Punch with Agility, and Leaf Storm with Energy Ball; sleeping something, taking a hit that activates Overgrow, and attempt a sweep. This is unlikely to work well as a lead though; and generally if you want to use Agility you'd be better off with the next set.</p>

[SET]
name: Agility
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Agility
move 3: Energy Ball
move 4: Hidden Power Fire
item: Petaya Berry
nature: Modest
evs: 236 SpA / 76 SpD / 196 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Agility boosts Treecko's already decent speed to a level beyond that of most Scarfers; giving him a decent chance of cleaning up in the end-game. Substitute on a switch from something that's never going to stay in on you, and Agility from behind it. After an Agility Treecko should be faster than pretty much anything your opponent throws at you, so Substitute twice more to activate Petaya Berry and Overgrow. Attempt a sweep from there. You could try losing Hidden Power Fire for Grasswhistle in order to help force the initial switch needed to set up, but the coverage you lose is considerable and as such Grasswhistle is a lesser option.</p>

[SET]
name: Choice
move 1: Leaf Storm
move 2: Hidden Power Fire
move 3: Grasswhistle
move 4: Sleep Talk
item: Choice Scarf / Choice Specs
nature: Timid
evs: 236 SpA / 76 SpD / 196 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Generic Choice set, by virtue of Treecko's decent Special Attack and speed. Unfortunately, his Special movepool is limited to pretty much nothing more than STAB attacks and Hidden Power, so half of this moveset is pretty much filler. It is certainly workable though; it's just pretty easily walled. Focus Punch is worth considering over either Grasswhistle or Sleep Talk if you really hate Munchlax; particularly on the Scarf set which really struggles to hurt him.</p>

[SET]
name: Sub-seeder
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Leech Seed
move 3: Giga Drain
move 4: Hidden Power Fire
item: Leftovers
nature: Timid
evs: 236 SpA / 76 SpD / 196 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>The favoured moveset of big brother Sceptile is still a very viable option on Treecko, though his mediocre speed and the offensively driven nature of the Little Cup may hurt this set's potential. Leech Seed, Substitute, and keep on Substituting to slowly stall your opponent out of Hp. Giga Drain adds to the stally feel of the set, helping replenish the Hp you are losing from repeatedly Substituting. Hidden Power Fire hits other Grass types, who are immune to Leech Seed. Have fun against Tentacool though. </p>

[SET]
name: Sunny-Beamer
move 1: Sunny Day
move 2: Substitute
move 3: Solarbeam
move 4: Hidden Power Fire
item: Salac Berry
nature: Timid
evs: 236 SpA / 76 SpD / 196 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Borders on novelty, but you could do some damage with this if it's played right. Substitute on a switch, and if whatever comes in is slower, substitute down to ~25%, then Sunny Day. Hidden Power Fire gets a boost, you can use the much more powerful Solarbeam in place of Energy Ball, as well as grabbing an Overgrow and a Salac boost. </p>

[Other Options]

<p>Treecko does have a decent physical movepool, so you could try a Choice Band set if his low attack and lack of decent physical STAB doesn't put you off too much. Swords Dancers are also a possibility, as is Screech (Probably best played with Pursuit, and Stealth Rock to punish switches) Quick Attack can be used in conjunction with Endeavour and a Focus Sash to get a free kill. Hidden Power Ice could be used in place of Fire to punish opposing Grass types and hit fliers such as Murkrow harder, if that's more to your liking. Hidden Power Ground punishes Fire types and Grimer.</p>

[EVs]

<p>Generally, you'll be wanting to max his decent speed; only 196 EVs are required for this. After that, you'll generally want to max SpA, which requires 236 EVs. Remember to minimise your defense when using Counter, to maximise your damage output. For the sub-seed set, you could invest in the defenses a bit more at the expense of SpA, but really you'll get more mileage out of offensive EVs.</p>

[Opinion]

<p>Treecko is a decent Pokemon; with plenty of options available to him. He would do a lot better if most of them weren't illegal with each other though. His limited Special movepool also really hinders him. However, whilst limited, Treecko is capable of doing a lot of damage to any team. Don't expect to see him in standards any time soon though.</p>

[Counters]

<p>Fire types should be your first switch in to Treecko; resistances to his STAB attacks and Hidden Power Fire and Ice makes them a relatively safe bet. Growlithe, Ponyta, Cyndaquil and Magby are all acceptable switches. Be wary of the threat of Hidden Power Ground though, as well as Counter if your counter is physically orientated. Murkrow is a solid switch; resistance to his Grass STAB attacks, neutrality to Hidden Power Fire and immunity to Ground makes him pretty reliable. Taunt shuts down the sub-seed sets, and Insomnia stops Grasswhistle. Powerful STAB Drill Pecks make short work of Treecko. Munchlax dislikes sub-seed sets or Choice Specs Leaf Storms, but can take pretty much anything else bar status with ease. Grimer's Grass resistance is useful in countering Taillow, and he is not weak to any other moves bar Hidden Power Ground. His powerful STAB attacks quickly finish Treecko.

<p>Tentacool's fantastic Special Defense allows it to come in on the sub-seeder and ruin it with Liquid Ooze. Swablu resists Grass and has solid Special Defense to take Treecko's attacks. Roost allows it to come in repeatedly, whilst Natural Cure allows it to shrug off Grasswhistle. Whilst fast, base 70 speed is by no means overwhelming, and is beaten by a lot. Treecko's defenses are relatively fragile too. If your team is fast and hits hard, Treecko will struggle to come in safely and you shouldn't have too many problems with him.</p>

---------------------------------

Will do EV section later; can't get to PC with Shoddy at the moment. Also, I really can't help but think that we probably need to start doing this in some sort of order; whether it be going from #1 to #459 or just setting out some that need to be prioritised.

[eric the espeon]

Here is an Ev spread for Counter:
36 HP / 236 SpA / 196 Spe

and for non-counter sets:
236 SpA / 76 SpD / 196 Spe
this gets 20 HP so you only have to sub down to 25% not 1% for salac boosts

will look through and do more comments later.

[cim]

Yay new thread tiem. Copying and posting Misdreavus over to work on.

I'd like to emphasize how awesome Meditite is. Really high attack and speed, plus okay defenses for little cup just scare me. At least his moves have fairly low BP. Not sure if he's worth a ban even if he can OHKO Bronzor, but he's definitely the best. I'll take his analysis.

Comments on Treecko: SubSeeding probably doesn't work in Little Cup, plus he has better move to use rather than Giga Drain...

MISDREAVUS

Stat Min- Min Max Max+
HP   xxxx 22 25   xxxx
Atk   10  12  15   16
Def   10  12  15   16
SpA   13  15  18   19
SpD   13  15  18   19
Spe   13  15  18   19

[SET]
name: Calm Mind
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Shadow Ball
move 3: Hidden Power [Fighting]
move 4: Destiny Bond / Will-o-wisp
item: Wise Glasses / Oran Berry
nature: Timid
evs: 28 HP / 240 SpA / 240 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>A simple boosting set. With 3 immunities Misdreavus can probably find time to Calm Mind once, then sweep with boosted STAB Shadow Ball and Hidden Power Fighting. Will-o-wisp is handy to beat Munchlax with; it both weakens Pursuit and turns HP Fighting into a OHKO. Destiny Bond works with Misdreavus's high Speed, though.</p>

[SET]
name: Choice Specs
move 1: Shadow Ball
move 2: Hidden Power [Fighting]
move 3: Thunderbolt
move 4: Shadow Sneak / Will-o-wisp / Destiny Bold
item: Choice Specs
nature: Modest / Timid
evs: 28 Atk / 240 SAtk / 240 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>There are only 3 viable Special moves in Misdreavus's piss-poor movepool (Misdreavus doesn't get Energy Ball like Mismagius). Thus, Slot 4 is pure filler; Shadow Sneak is to revenge-kill Abra, Will-o-wisp is just a good status move, and Destiny Bond will take something with Mismagius and is always recommended. Be careful of Pursuit with this set.</p>

[OTHER OPTIONS]
<p>Misdreavus doesn't have many other options. Perish Song is a waste of time in Little Cup and Misdreavus has no Hypnosis to help with that. Will-o-wisp and Thunder Wave together can work with a double status set. Other Hidden Power types are inferior to fighting as coverage of Larvitar and Sneasel is vital. Taunt is okay for Dragon Dancers or something.</p>

[OPINION]
<p>One of the better Pokémon that went off and evolved, Misdreavus appears to be settling in as a nice boosting alternate to Gastly in Little Cup. With STAB Shadow Ball off of 85 Special Attack and Speed, Misdreavus hits very hard and easily beats Munchlax with Will-o-wisp. Misdreavus also has decent defenses and extremely important immunities, making her an all around useful Pokémon.</p>

[COUNTERS]
<p>As with everything in Little Cup, an exact counter is hard to come by. Barring Will-o-wisp or predicted Choice Specs Hidden Power Fighting, Munchlax will own any Misdreavus with his Ghost immunity and access to Pursuit. Close behind Munchlax are other Normal types, with appropriate prediction or secondary typing. Unfortunately, it's hard to decide what side to attack Misdreavus on, since she has Calm Mind for the Special side and will-o-Wisp for the Physical side.</P>

<p>As for revenge killers and other sketchy counters, Sneasel coming in on a predicted Calm Mind or Shadow Ball will OHKO Misdreavus with Pursuit. Other Pursuiters like Buizel can come in on a non-SE move, especially Calm Mind, and KO. Gastly is faster than Misdreavus if Gastly holds a Choice Scarf.</p>

[hellmonkey]

HOW TO DISTRIBUTE YOUR EVs IN LITTLE CUP

Little Cup is a metagame that is played at Level 5. As such, the stats are calculated in a different way. Pokémon at Level 5 are EV trained differently than Level 100 ones. This guide will attempt to explain how to achieve the maximum potential of the 510 EV points you have at your disposal.

At level 5, there is not a huge gap when comparing very similar Base Stats. Take for an example: if we compare a Timid Abra (base 90) and a Timid Murkrow (base 91) at level 100, with maximum Speed each, we can see that Murkrow beats Abra by 3 points (309 against 306). But if we take those same Pokémon and set them to Level 5, we can see that they both max out at 19 Speed. Why is that? Wasn't Murkrow faster than Abra? And why do a Level 5 Jolly Buizel and Jolly Magby, with Base Speeds of 85 and 83 respectively, also max out Speed at 19?

This happens because EVs affect stats differently at Level 5, and some Base Stat numbers max out with fewer EVs than others. Continuing with our previous example, we can see that:

-Murkrow has a Base 91 Speed and maxes out with 188 EVs
-Abra has a base 90 Speed and maxes out with 196 EVs
-Buizel has a base 85 Speed and maxes out with 236 EVs
-Magby has a base 83 Speed and maxes out with 252 EVs

We can observe a pattern here. Abra and Murkrow have a 1 BS point of difference between them, and they max out the stat with 8 EVs of difference. Buizel and Magby have a BS difference of 2, and max out by a difference of 16 EVs. Yet, it seems their Base Speeds all pertain to a certain group of Base Stat numbers where the stat maxes ar 19.

What we can conclude from here is that we can organize Base Stats at level 5 by 'Stat Ranges'. A Stat Range is comprised of a range of Base Stat numbers which are able to be maxed out to the same stat number but require a different amount of EVs to do so. Stat Ranges start on a Base Stat number which ends in 3, and finish with a Base Stat number which ends in 2. So, an example Stat Range would be:

83 (Magby / 252 EVs)
84
85 (Buizel / 236 EVs)
86
87
88
89
90 (Abra / 196 EVs)
91 (Murkrow / 188EVs)
92

All these Base Stat numbers max out at 19 with a positive nature. We can confirm that ONLY these numbers belong to this range, since
a Pokémon with a Base 82 Speed (a hypotethical Gabite) at level 5 and with a positive nature only reaches 18 Speed (thus, 82 belongs to the previous range); in a similar way, a Pokémon with Base 93 Speed (a hypothetical Magmar), at level 5 and with a positive nature maxes out at 20 Speed (thus, 93 belongs to the next range).

We can then conclude that as the Base Stat nears the next range, it needs less and less EVs to max out. On the other hand, the nearer
the number is to the previous range, the more EVs it needs to max out.

This amount of EVs needed to gain stats is directly related to the last digit of the Base Stat number.

This table will tell you how many EVs you need to up a stat a certain number of points. It all depends on which digit the Base Stat in question ends.

If the Base Stat number ends in.....# of EVs required for 1/2/3(max) stat point gain

3 - 92/172/252 EVs
4 - 84/164/244 EVs
5 - 76/156/236 EVs
6 - 68/148/228 EVs
7 - 60/140/220 EVs
8 - 52/132/212 EVs
9 - 44/124/204 EVs
0 - 36/116/196 EVs
1 - 28/108/188 EVs
2 - 20/100/180 EVs

Note that these numbers not only apply to Speed; they apply to all stats.

This means that the absolute minimum number of EVs to max a stat will be 180 IF your Base Stat's last digit is a two. This means that Rattata (Base 72), Drowzee (Base 42) and Hippopotas (Base 32) reach max Speed with 180 Speed EVs and a positive nature.

On the other hand, the absolute maximum of EVs you will need to max a stat is 252 IF your Base Stat's last digit is a three. Magby (base 83) and
Totodile (base 43) max out their Speed with 252 EVs.

A list of the Stat Ranges at Level 5 follows. This table will tell you which number will reach your Pokémon once EVs are adjusted, depending on the
Base Stat range it belongs to.

---

RANGE 1: Stat maxes at 10 with a neutral nature, at 11 with a positive nature; HP maxes at 20
Base 5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12

RANGE 2: Stat maxes at 11 with a neutral nature, at 12 with a positive nature; HP maxes at 21
Base 13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22

RANGE 3: Stat maxes at 12 with a neutral nature, at 13 with a positive nature; HP maxes at 22
Base 23,24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,32

RANGE 4: Stat maxes at 13 with a neutral nature, at 14 with a positive nature; HP maxes at 23
Base 33,34,35,36,37,38,39,40,41,42

RANGE 5: Stat maxes at 14 with a neutral nature, at 15 with a positive nature; HP maxes at 24
Base 43,44,45,46,47,48,49,50,51,52

RANGE 5: Stat maxes at 15 with a neutral nature, at 16 with a positive nature; HP maxes at 25
Base 53,54,55,56,57,58,59,60,61,62

RANGE 6: Stat maxes at 16 with a neutral nature, at 17 with a positive nature; HP maxes at 26
Base 63,64,65,66,67,68,69,70,71,72

RANGE 7: Stat maxes at 17 with a neutral nature, at 18 with a positive nature; HP maxes at 27
Base 73,74,75,76,77,78,79,80,81,82

RANGE 8: Stat maxes at 18 with a neutral nature, at 19 with a positive nature; HP maxes at 28
Base 83,84,85,86,87,88,89,90,91,92

RANGE 9: Stat maxes at 19 with a neutral nature, at 20 with a positive nature; HP maxes at 29
Base 93,94,95,96,97,98,99,100,101,102

RANGE 10: Stat maxes at 20 with a neutral nature, at 21 with a positive nature; HP maxes at 30
Base 103,104,105,106,107,108,109,110,111,112

RANGE 11: Stat maxes at 21 with a neutral nature, at 22 with a positive nature; HP maxes at 31
Base 113,114,115,116,117,118,119,120,121,122

RANGE 12: Stat maxes at 22 with a neutral nature, at 23 with a positive nature; HP maxes at 32
Base 123,124,125,126,127,128,129,130,131,132

RANGE 13: Stat maxes at 23 with a neutral nature, at 24 with a positive nature; HP maxes at 33
Base 133,134,135

RANGE 14: Nonexistant for Little Cup, no eligible Pokémon with a Base Stat between 143 and 152

RANGE 15: Stat maxes at 25 with a neutral nature, at 26 with a positive nature
Base 160

*Range 1 starts at 5, the lowest Base Stat for a Pokémon allowed in Little Cup (Happiny's Attack / Munchlax's Speed)
**Range 13 ends at 135, the highest Base Stat number of its range before entering the next (Munchlax's HP)
***Range 15 only includes Onix's Defense (160), as no other numbers enter this range. It is also the highest base stat of any Little Cup Pokémon.

---
To apply this to a practical example, let's EV a Lv5 Totodile. We want it to be a physical sweeper, so we will maximize Attack and Speed, and if possible, dump the remaining EVs into HP or the defenses.

Totodile's Base Stats are 50HP 65Atk 64Def 44SpA 48SpD 43Spe

Its Attack is Base 65, so it falls under Range 6. We will use a Jolly nature, so Attack will max out at 16. Since 65 ends in 5, according to the table its Attack will max at 236 EVs. So far our spread is 236Atk.

The Speed sits at Base 43. This is Range 5, so it will reach 15. It ends with 3, so we need 252 EVs to max it. The spread is now 236Atk / 252Spe.

We have 22 EVs remaining now. To gain a point in another stat, we'd need said stat to end in 2. HP and the defenses end in 0/4/8, respectively. So, sadly, those 22 EVs will go to waste.

Now take a Lv5 Cyndaquil. We'll make this a Mixed Sweeper, with mainly Special attacks.

Cyndaquil's Base Stats are 39/52/43/60/50/65. Using a Hasty nature, we see that the Speed is in Range 6, giving us 17 Speed. Special Attack belongs to Range 5, maxing out at 15.

65 ends in 5, so we'll make use of 236 EVs. The spread is 236Spe.

SpA ends in 0, so we'll have to invest 196 EVs to get to the maximum. This leaves us with 196SpA / 236Spe with 78 EVs remaining.

We can gain a stat point more if one of the other base stats end in 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 0, 1 or 2. On our priority list, Attack is next. Fortunately, Attack's Base Stat ends in 2, so we only need 20 EVs to up it 1 point, but we don't have enough EVs for two points. The spread is now 20Atk / 196SpA / 236Spe with 58 EVs remaining.

We can still gain a point if a Base Stat ends in 8, 9, 0, 1 or 2.The only stat that meets this criteria is HP. It ends in 9, so we need 44 EVs. Since we won't be able to up the other stats, we will just use the necessary EVs in HP, leaving the rest alone. This leaves you with a final spread of 44HP / 20Atk / 196SpA / 236Spe.

On these two examples, we first maximized the two most important stats and then checked if there was a way to extract some juice from the leftover EVs, thus maximizing the points gained from the EVs.

One last note: if you ever need to change the IVs of a Pokémon for Hidden Power purposes, make sure you add 4 EVs for each IV you substract. To make this clear: Say you want to give our Cyndaquil Hidden Power Grass 70. You need an Attack and Special Attack IV of 30. We were left with 14 EVs going to waste on the previous spread, so we'll use them to fix the attacking Stats. Changing the spread to 44HP / 24Atk / 200SpA / 236Spe should leave Cyndaquil as good as before.

Use this guide as a reference when EVing Pokémon for Little Cup to find the best possible spreads, and also to know whether your Pokémon will outrun, tie or go after a certain opponent.

[Evil Hamster]

Comments on Treecko: SubSeeding probably doesn't work in Little Cup, plus he has better move to use rather than Giga Drain...

Subseeding does work; as long as you can force a switch, which you probably can from any one of the many waters such as Omanyte and Kabuto. Giga Drain helps replenish Hp from substitutes, as Leftovers/Leech Seed probably won't be enough, and the drop in power isn't that significant from Energy Ball.

[sbc]

Zigzagoon Little Cup Analysis

[SET]
name: Belly Drum
move 1: Belly Drum
move 2: Return
move 3: Pursuit
move 4: Surf / Rock Smash / Dig
item: Salac Berry
ability: Gluttony
nature: Jolly
evs: 196 Atk / 116 SAtk / 196 Spe
ivs: 30 SAtk

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Zigzagoon has the potential to tear up the Little Cup Metagame with a combination of Belly Drum and a powerful STAB move. The idea is to get in a Belly Drum on an opponent that is incapable of dealing much damage to Zigzagoon and then to fire off Return at opponents, using the other two moves if needed.</p>

<p>After a Belly Drum, Pursuit will OHKO any Ghost-type pokemon trying to flaunt their immunity to Normal-type moves and the last slot is up to preference. Surf is the desired move, guaranteeing an OHKO on the trio of Rhyhorn, Geodude and Onix with the EVs shown assuming maximum HP and no investment in Special Defense. However, against both Aron and Shieldon, Surf is not guaranteed to 2HKO, accounting for the likely Oran Berry and if sandstorm is in effect, all of the mentioned pokemon will take 1.5x less damage due to their part-Rock typing. Rock Smash on the other hand will dispose of both Aron and Shieldon in one blow but the Rock and Ground type trio will live through a boosted hit. Dig is the last option and is a compromise between Surf and Rock Smash and has a chance of an OHKO on Onix, Geodude and Rhyhorn but gives the opponent the chance to switch out to a pokemon that is immune to it. Furthermore, all five of the aforementioned pokemon are likely to use Earthquake on Zigzagoon and thus kill it whilst it is underground.</p>

<p>Do not be tempted to use Life Orb, Silk Scarf or any other attack-boosting item on Zigzagoon. In the case of the former, the recoil means that Zigzagoon has reduced ability to sweep a team and as for other items, the increase in power isn't worth the trade for speed. A Speed stat of 16 is hardly fast in the Little Cup environment and allows Zigzagoon to be revenge-killed with ease.</p>

[SET]
name: Choice
move 1: Return / Double-Edge / ExtremeSpeed
move 2: Pursuit
move 3: Iron Tail / Rock Smash
move 4: Trick
item: Choice Scarf / Choice Band
ability: Gluttony
nature: Adamant / Jolly
evs: 116 HP / 196 Atk / 196 Spe
ivs: 30 SAtk

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>A simple Choice Scarf or Choice Band set, use an Adamant nature if you are planning to use ExtremeSpeed or Choice Scarf, otherwise stick to Jolly. For the main, you will attack with Return or Double-Edge depending on your preference of power to recoil damage. Pursuit, again, hits Ghost-types and Iron Tail is your most powerful non-STAB move and hits Rock-types hard whereas Rock Smash hits Steel-types harder and is more accurate. Trick is the final weapon in your arsenal, with the ability to cripple a pokemon and allow one of your own pokemon to take advantage and set up. Be careful however, of tricking Choice Band or Choice Scarf onto a Rhyhorn or another powerful attacker.</p>

[OTHER OPTIONS]
<p>ExtremeSpeed is only legal in Level 100 Little Cup with Belly Drum. Otherwise, it is an illegal combination. Zigzagoon's physical movepool is rather lacking. Subsitute can be used on the Belly Drum set to block status and perhaps buy time for a Belly Drum but is largely redundant seeing as Zigzagoon gets Gluttony as a trait, meaning that the Salac Berry boost activates at half of its HP. Facade and Body Slam are alternative STAB moves with certain advantages but it is best to mostly stick to ExtremeSpeed or Return. Charm and Tickle are both good support moves, but Zigzagoon does not have the defences to take full advantage of them. It is worth noting that Zigzagoon can boost its Special Attack with Charge Beam and can sport Ice Beam and Shadow Ball beside it, but with no special STAB move, it is worth avoiding such a special-based set.</p>

[OPINION]
<p>Zigzagoon is a potent attacker with the ability to tear through teams after just one turn of set up. However, in the fast and offensively orientated Little Cup metagame, Zigzagoon will find it hard to find the opportunity to get in a Belly Drum, especially with the lack of resistances and immunities that come with being a Normal-type. This, combined with a mere 30 base Attack and a poor physical movepool, prevent Zigzagoon from becoming a top-tier threat.</p>

[COUNTERS]
<p> Bronzor is the most reliable counter, resisting Return and being neutral to everything else Zigzagoon can muster. Bulky pokemon such as Tangela can live through a boosted Return, provided EV investment in defense, and KO it back. Depending on the moveset, Onix, Rhyhorn, Geodude, Aron and Shieldon can all counter the Belly Drum set and with prediction can counter the Choice set. Zigzagoon is vulnerable to being revenge-killed by pokemon with Choice Scarf with just half its life.</p>

<p>Not much can live through a boosted Return but provided each pokemon on your team has a means of inflicting a good amount of damage, Zigzagoon will find it very hard to find the time to Belly Drum</p>

[McLovinn]

^^

Can I post this here? Its about the above moveset... Belly Drum is only available to Zigzag at level 41, so how do you get it at level 5? Or am I mistaken as to the egg move or whatever.

Also, about the getting EV spreads on level 5 Pokémon link. Where does it say anything about doing so?

[hellmonkey]

Sorry, Belly Drum + Extremespeed is illegal at Lv5. You can only have either Extremespeed (from Box) or Belly Drum (from breeding two Linoone with BD)

[eric the espeon]

Originally Posted by Fat da big blast

^^

Can I post this here? yes. please do Its about the above moveset... Belly Drum is only available to Zigzag at level 41, so how do you get it at level 5? Or am I mistaken as to the egg move or whatever.
You can get any Lv up move by breeding, so long as the farther has it.

Also, about the getting EV spreads on level 5 Pokémon link. Where does it say anything about doing so?

if you click the link and wait a few moments it should jump to post number 30 where the info is.

Sorry, Belly Drum + Extremespeed is illegal at Lv5. You can have either Belly Drum (from Box) or Extremespeed (from breeding two Linoone with BD)

Belly Drum is a Lv up move and Extremespeed is from Box (iirc anyway, nether Serebii or Smogons databases have extremespeed anywhere).

[CPU]

On a serious note, Porygon can not have Tri Attack at level 5.

[McLovinn]

Thanks Eric!

But how do you get SpA EVs then? And SpD/Def EVs?

[eric the espeon]

If you breed a Porygon that has Tri Attack from what I understand the baby will have it.

Edit: its fine, are you planing on learning this metagame?

[hellmonkey]

@eric: Thanks, I switched Extremespeed and Belly Drum around in my post. Yeah, Extremespeed is the one from Box and thus unbreedable together with BD.

For the Sneasel/Meditite discussion, I wish I had logs to confidently back it up, but I've had times when Meditite @ Sash alone sweeps 2/3 of a team. A Fake Out from Meditite hurts as hell, ruining a possible Sash and then finishing you off with a STAB move, or just running amok with a STAB 100 power move and a Scarf, at 26-28 Attack. And as eric has experienced, Max Attack Meditite HiJump Kick almost always 1-hits Bronzor, with no boosting item. Gligar is 2HKOd by Psycho Cut, and I doubt Aerial Ace OHKOs Meditite,and if Gligar invests in Attack to do so, it may risk getting OHKO'd. Not to mention it will take off a big chunk of HP if it switches into HJK. I'm leaning towards a Meditite ban; same with Sneasel. If it has a Sash, you almost always need two Sashers to finish it off, and it will still go first if you use a priority move.

Now, for the order in which we will do the analyses, I propose the following:
Using the Standard Metagame tier lists, we would prioritize the analyses for the basic forms of OU Pokémon, as I think those have a little better shot at becoming standard; then continue with the basic forms of BL Pokémon, and then onward with the UUs. I propose this instead of going in Pokedex number order because making a Gible or Bagon analysis would have more impact than wasting time on the Caterpie and Weedle analyses. Of course there will be exceptions; for example, if we do from OU to UU we will run first into Magikarp rather than something more important like, say, Charmander. A temptative order of priority for the analyses would therefore be:

HAS FINAL FORM IN OU (already done, banned/in testing)
-Snover, Happiny, Shroomish, Bronzor, Phanpy, Dratini, Diglett, Duskull, Elekid, Pineco, Ralts, Gible, Gastly, Gligar, Magikarp, Hippopotas, Chimchar, Eevee, Horsea, Riolu, Machop, Magnemite, Swinub, Beldum, Feebas, Nincada, Porygon, Bagon, Scyther, Munchlax, Staryu, Mudkip, Tentacool, Togepi, Larvitar, Sneasel, Wynaut, Yanma.

HAS FINAL FORM IN BL
-Abra, Aipom, Growlithe, Azurill, Torchic, Charmander, Zubat, Piplup, Exeggcute, Totodile, Buizel, Trapinch, Makuhita, Murkrow, Houndour, Lickitung, Lotad, Magby, Cubone, Meditite, Misdreavus, Cranidos, Rhyhorn, Budew, Treecko, Slakoth, Slowpoke, Starly, Tangela, Turtwig, Cyndaquil, Teddiursa, Bulbasaur, Koffing.

And then the UUs, but I don't wanna type them all >.>

[McLovinn]

Emboldened one have been proven to be fine?

[hellmonkey]

No, in bold means we already have an analysis for it, italicized means the Pokémon is banned or in testing for ban.

[eric the espeon]

Or we just let people do whatever ones they like and post a list of Pokemon still to do.

[hellmonkey]

Yeah, or that :P

But we should allow people to sign up to do two analyses max at a time, and then when those are finished, sign up for another two.This way we can avoid one person owing like 5 analyses when other person could be doing them and accelerating the process.

[McLovinn]

I dunno if I can do this, but I tried an Elekid analysis. I only did one moveset, because I'm not gonna bother unless I'm allowed. I've learnt this thing in practically two minutes. Great guides Mr Happy.

Elekid:

Elekid@Choice Specs
252 SpA/156 Spe - Timid (Could this be modest?)
Flamethrower (Does 88-104% to Bronzor with 252 SpD/HP)
Thunderbolt
HP Grass/Ice
Discharge


I'm just trying. I created that using the guides around here. Please don't flame me. Give me tips.

[eric the espeon]

fine.
we need more comments on Treecko, Misdrevius and Zigzagoon, I dont have time now or probably tomorrow to do full comments so can someone else help?

And unless Sneasel and Meditite get some support soon they will be set to banned.
Scyther was never tested so it will soon be moved to "under testing".

[CPU]

No, I just bred a Porygon with Recover, Agility, and Psybeam with a Ditto- the offspring just had Porygon's base moves.

[Caelum]

Originally Posted by Fat Mr. Happy

For the Sneasel/Meditite discussion, I wish I had logs to confidently back it up, but I've had times when Meditite @ Sash alone sweeps 2/3 of a team. A Fake Out from Meditite hurts as hell, ruining a possible Sash and then finishing you off with a STAB move, or just running amok with a STAB 100 power move and a Scarf, at 26-28 Attack. And as eric has experienced, Max Attack Meditite HiJump Kick almost always 1-hits Bronzor, with no boosting item. Gligar is 2HKOd by Psycho Cut, and I doubt Aerial Ace OHKOs Meditite,and if Gligar invests in Attack to do so, it may risk getting OHKO'd. Not to mention it will take off a big chunk of HP if it switches into HJK. I'm leaning towards a Meditite ban; same with Sneasel. If it has a Sash, you almost always need two Sashers to finish it off, and it will still go first if you use a priority move.

I've recently gotten into LC just as a side thing to my adventures into standard just to try something different and it's a great deal of fun. But anyway, onto the discussion of banned guys. I'm not one to usually jump on the ban this, ban that philosophy but in LC there is virtually no Pokemon defensively oriented enough to handle thinks like Meditite, Sneasel, and Yanma (who are the only 3 that I think deserve to be put in the uber tier of LC).

My position on Meditite is virtually identical to yours so I won't recap your arguement, but really Gligar is really the only reasonable counter in LC to Meditite and even then he isn't that good. Just to set the record straight, with no attack EVs and neutral nature Gligar can OHKO minimum HP, minimum defense Meditite with Aerial Ace but it requires either attack EVs or an Adamant nature to guarantee the OHKO. Furthermore Meditite (although I'm not sure about illegal move combinations with this) does have access to Ice Punch which OHKO's max HP, max defense Impish Gligar. To me, he seems broken.

I must also say I believe that Sneasel is broken in LC. I personally use Sneasel and I will start saving my battle logs and send it to you. I use an interesting combination of Fake Out+Ice Shard on Sneasel. Fake Out hurts in LC and usually puts the opponent into range of a near KO by Ice Shard. Furthermore, if a ghost like Gastly or Misdreavus attempts to switch in to avoid the Fake Out they get hit with Pursuit which, even when they are not attempting to switch out hurts a lot, or with Bite or Faint Attack. Not to mention Sneasel's amazing 115 base speed, which virtual outruns every non-scarf users in LC. Additionally, I almost always get Stealth Rock down first or second turn so it even ruins the potential for Focus Sash users to take Sneasel out in my opinion. Omanyte and Kabuto who resist that combination I mentioned get hit with Brick Break pretty hard as well. Probably Bronzor is the best switch into Sneasel (kind of like how Bronzong is generally a good switch into Weavile) but Bronzor can still not take repeated hits from Sneasel's dark STAB attacks or even Brick Break.

Also, I've been use DynamicPunch Machop and I was wondering if I could submit a set for it since it's actually been pretty effective when I use it.

Edit: I just read a post above mine and while I think that testing something is usually the best route, and I don't mind testing of anything, but to me it seems a Scyther test would be pointless since I think we know the results already but I could be wrong.

[McLovinn]

Here it is then; the Elekid analysis. If I don't finish today, give comments, and I'll finish it tomorrow:

[SET]
name: Choice
move 1: Flamethrower
move 2: Thunderbolt
move 3: Hidden Power [Grass]
move 4: Discharge
item: Choice Specs
nature: Timid
evs: 252 SpA/156 Spd/100 HP

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>This is built to win. It can nearly always OHKO a 252 HP/252 SpD Bronzor, getting 88%-104%, with Flamethrower. Thunderbolt is in there for the STAB and power. Hidden Power Ice is also a choice over Hidden Power Grass. Hidden Power Ice can outdo Hippopotas, but so can Hidden Power Grass. Discharge is in there for the boosts it can give, and the STAB. There are some damage calculations below.</p>

[SET]
name: Focus Rain
move 1: Rain Dance
move 2: Thunder
move 3: Hidden Power [Ice] / Hidden Power [Grass] / Hidden Power [Water]
move 4: Flamethrower
item: Focus Sash
nature: Modest / Timid
evs: 252 SpA/100 HP/156 Spd

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Elekid does well in learning Thunder and Rain Dance. The Focus Sash remains there in case of things attacking and possibly OHKOing. On nearly every Pokémon in the Little Cup, it'll outspeed. This gives it the chance to get the Rain Dance on the first turn, and OHKO with tits wide movepool on the next turn. Hidden Power Water is in there because of the boost it'll get from Rain Dance. Flamethrower is, once, again, in there to kill Bronzor.</p>

[OPTIONS]
<p>Elekid has a fantastic movepool physical-wise, but a limited movepool when it comes to special-type moves. Hidden Power Water, Grass and Ice are its best choices for taking out Hippopotas, while Flamethrower is its only choice for OHKOing Bronzor. Like his elder brother, he has the Elemental Punches at his disposal. On top of this, it has Earthquake and Cross Chop to use. </p>

[OPINION]
<p>Elekid has one of the best speeds in the Little Cup, and puts it to good use. His better-than-average movepool is great for taking out the metagame's walls, such as Bronzor and Hippopotas. Coupled with the fantastic speed, it is an amazingly viable Pokémon in the Little Cup, though it is overshadowed by some of the better attacking ones. All in all, Elekid is a fantastic opponent/Pokémon to be used, and deserves much, much, much more attention.</p>

[COUNTERS]
<p>Need big time help with this section. I don't know heck.</p>