NFEs

[Missingno. Master]

What with all the suspect testing going on, it seems to me that you guys have been neglecting a large aspect of Pokemon- unevolved Pokemon. Some of them can fare quite well, a few even more so than their evolutions! I know Pikachu, Vigoroth, Scyther, and Porygon2 are already placed into tiers, but there's others. Lots more others. And they don't even have to play differently than their evolutions, some NFEs can copy their evolved form's strategy to a somewhat lesser extent, yet still effectively. There should be testing to see what tiers the NFEs belong in. But first, we need a list of competitively viable NFEs. This would include the following;

1: NFEs that boast some sort of statistical benefit over their evolution (Clamperl, by means of DeepSeaTooth, Anorith, and Shelgon are good examples here)

2: NFEs that were fully evolved at one point in their existance (Such as Seadra, Golbat, and Piloswine)

3: NFEs that can do things their evolutions can't (Trapinch)

4: NFEs that have different typing than their evolution (Charmeleon, Shelgon, Pupitar, Dragonair, even, dare I say, Surskit)

5: NFEs that don't benefit the user in a way their evolutions cannot, yet still have the stats and moves to make it competitively (Haunter, Kadabra, Machoke)

6: NFEs with decent to excellent offensive stats and terrible speed stats so as to require Trick Room support (Munchlax, Machoke, Trapinch)

7: Other (Wynaut, Snover, Hippopotas)

Clamperl: DeepSeaTooth garners it a special attack higher than Huntail or Gorebyss could ever dream of. Better than a Specs boost, and no one-move restriction!

Anorith: Base 90 Attack, and has base 70 speed (Armaldo's speed, I believe, is in the 40s)

Shelgon: Higher defense than Salamence, no 4x ice weakness, no SR weakness, Dragon Dance, need I say more?

Seadra: Can run a decent Agility set.

Golbat: No real benefit over Crobat, but still has the kind of stats and moves to make an OK Choice Bander.

Piloswine: Poor Pilo. In GSC, it was a decent UU with Curse. In RSE, it lost curse, along with all usability. Now that it can learn Curse again, it's Cursed by being outclassed by its new evolution (Curse pun intended).

Trapinch: Third slowest Pokemon in existance, and the same base Attack as Flygon. And Arena Trap. Good Trick Room material if ever I saw it.

Charmeleon: Pure Fire, so less of a SR/Rock weakness, and can run a Dragon Dance set.

Pupitar: Ground type, can run a Dragon Dance set.

Dragonair: Same benefits as Shelgon, sans the higher defense.

Surskit: Worth testing. Specs+rain support, and STAB Hydro Pump... I think it's worth a shot, anyway.

Haunter/Kadabra: Special Attack and Speed stats befitting of a fully evolved Pokemon. So what if they're outclassed by their evolutions? They can still work!

Machoke: Base 100 Attack, No Guard, low speed.... Trick Room sweeper.

Munchlax: Its base 85 Attack is prime for Choice Band/Curse boosting (Higher than either of Froslass's offensive stats, I remind you!), and it's tied with Shuckle for slowest Pokemon ever. Try outspeeding THAT in Trick Room conditions!

Wynaut: Plays like Wobbuffet, only less so. Worthy of testing, I would think.

Snover/Hippopotas: Snover's offensive stats are like Froslass's, I believe, and mixed with its terrible speed, makes it good for Trick Room. Plus, both cause weather. Everyone says that letting them into UU would be disasterous or something, but would it really? I say it'd be better to find out through experience.

But of course, all this is entirely my opinion. It's not up to me which NFEs Smogon test, or which tiers they are placed in. Or even if they test NFEs at all.

 

[Malfunction]

NFEs are played in a little cup metagame. No one tests NFEs, cause they don't need to.

I don't see the point in this thread.

 

[Erodent]

Check: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1590002&postcount=1278

Funniest post I've ever read. My turn?

What with all the suspect testing going on, it seems to me that you guys have been neglecting a large aspect of Pokemon- unevolved Pokemon. Some of them can fare quite well, a few even more so than their evolutions! I know Pikachu, Vigoroth, Scyther, and Porygon2 are already placed into tiers, but there's others. Lots more others. And they don't even have to play differently than their evolutions, some NFEs can copy their evolved form's strategy to a somewhat lesser extent, yet still effectively. There should be testing to see what tiers the NFEs belong in. But first, we need a list of competitively viable NFEs. This would include the following;

1: NFEs that boast some sort of statistical benefit over their evolution (Clamperl, by means of DeepSeaTooth, Anorith, and Shelgon are good examples here)

Explain why one will use

over the intimidating

2: NFEs that were fully evolved at one point in their existance (Such as Seadra, Golbat, and Piloswine)

Why should you use Golbat when Crobat's around? Golbat has overall better stats. Same with Piloswine and Mamoswine.

3: NFEs that can do things their evolutions can't (Trapinch)

Trapinch is probably the only NFE that can actually do something, but not much.

4: NFEs that have different typing than their evolution (Charmeleon, Shelgon, Pupitar, Dragonair, even, dare I say, Surskit)

Surskit does repel Ice Beam and Surf but what else? Everyone seems to love Tyranitar's Sand Stream.

5: NFEs that don't benefit the user in a way their evolutions cannot, yet still have the stats and moves to make it competitively (Haunter, Kadabra, Machoke)

How?

6: NFEs with decent to excellent offensive stats and terrible speed stats so as to require Trick Room support (Munchlax, Machoke, Trapinch)

Hit hard with Snorlax or less with Munchlax? I leave that up to you. Plus, less defense is not welcoming

7: Other (Wynaut, Snover, Hippopotas)

Riiiiiight

Clamperl: DeepSeaTooth garners it a special attack higher than Huntail or Gorebyss could ever dream of. Better than a Specs boost, and no one-move restriction!

Yeah, yeah yeah.

Anorith: Base 90 Attack, and has base 70 speed (Armaldo's speed, I believe, is in the 40s)

Is all you care about Speed? How about defense? What are you achieving with particularly mediocre Attack? Anorith has 75 base speed. You think that's good do you?

Shelgon: Higher defense than Salamence, no 4x ice weakness, no SR weakness, Dragon Dance, need I say more?

Why would you use Shelgon to...wall? Try Donphan or something. Yes, you need say more.

Seadra: Can run a decent Agility set.

www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/kingdra

Golbat: No real benefit over Crobat, but still has the kind of stats and moves to make an OK Choice Bander.

Crobat has higher Spe than Golbat, not to mention Attack.

Piloswine: Poor Pilo. In GSC, it was a decent UU with Curse. In RSE, it lost curse, along with all usability. Now that it can learn Curse again, it's Cursed by being outclassed by its new evolution (Curse pun intended).

Why would you, with Mamo having an incredible base 130 Attack?

Trapinch: Third slowest Pokemon in existance, and the same base Attack as Flygon. And Arena Trap. Good Trick Room material if ever I saw it.

Trick Room is all you can come up with?

Charmeleon: Pure Fire, so less of a SR/Rock weakness, and can run a Dragon Dance set.

Will get eliminated quickly

Pupitar: Ground type, can run a Dragon Dance set.

It's rock-ground. Easily finished off by Grass Knot or Surf before it can even Dance up.

Dragonair: Same benefits as Shelgon, sans the higher defense.

I don't get it. Defences are pathetic.

Surskit: Worth testing. Specs+rain support, and STAB Hydro Pump... I think it's worth a shot, anyway.

Why don't you try using a Pokemon with base stats 40/30/32/50/52/65?

Haunter/Kadabra: Special Attack and Speed stats befitting of a fully evolved Pokemon. So what if they're outclassed by their evolutions? They can still work!

Because they're cool?

Machoke: Base 100 Attack, No Guard, low speed.... Trick Room sweeper.

Ah Trick Room again..

Munchlax: Its base 85 Attack is prime for Choice Band/Curse boosting (Higher than either of Froslass's offensive stats, I remind you!), and it's tied with Shuckle for slowest Pokemon ever. Try outspeeding THAT in Trick Room conditions!

More trick room BS

Wynaut: Plays like Wobbuffet, only less so. Worthy of testing, I would think.

It's just cuter, is what it is

Snover/Hippopotas: Snover's offensive stats are like Froslass's, I believe, and mixed with its terrible speed, makes it good for Trick Room. Plus, both cause weather. Everyone says that letting them into UU would be disasterous or something, but would it really? I say it'd be better to find out through experience.

Abomasnow and Hippowdon are more resourceful. Then go "experience" defeat yourself

But of course, all this is entirely my opinion. It's not up to me which NFEs Smogon test, or which tiers they are placed in. Or even if they test NFEs at all.

They won't.

 

[Missingno. Master]

Explain why one will use

over the intimidating

I'm not saying to use Shelgon over Salamence. I'm saying why not use Shelgon at all?

Why should you use Golbat when Crobat's around? Golbat has overall better stats. Same with Piloswine and Mamoswine.

Again, I admit that they're outclassed by their evolutions, but that doesn't make them completely unviable competitively.

Trapinch is probably the only NFE that can actually do something, but not much.

OK, we're agreed on Trapinch at least.

Surskit does repel Ice Beam and Surf but what else? Everyone seems to love Tyranitar's Sand Stream.

STAB Hydro Pump, with Specs and Rain boost. Not to mention Swift Swim. Extremely situational, I know... Never tested it myself yet, but I intend to.

How?

Did you not understand it? NFEs that have nothing to boast over their evolutions, but can still cut it due to their stats and moves.

Hit hard with Snorlax or less with Munchlax? I leave that up to you. Plus, less defense is not welcoming

I'm not saying Munchlax is better than Snorlax. I'm just saying that it's good enough to warrant consideration.

Riiiiiight

Well, there's gotta be some sort of ruling here.

Yeah, yeah yeah.

You are aware that DeepSeaTooth takes Clamperl's Special Attack well into the 500s, right?

Is all you care about Speed? How about defense? What are you achieving with particularly mediocre Attack? Anorith has 75 base speed. You think that's good do you?

Well, when compared to Armaldo's paltry base 45 speed...

Why would you use Shelgon to...wall? Try Donphan or something. Yes, you need say more.

Its defense lets it last long enough to get in a DD or two. ANd the lack of a flying type means no 4x weakness, and more importantly, no SR weak. All this lets it DD up so it can sweep.

www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/kingdra

I was NOT saying that it's better than Kingdra. Kingdra can do what Seadra does better, but that does NOT mean that Seadra is completely useless!

Crobat has higher Spe than Golbat, not to mention Attack.

I already acknowledged Golbat's overall inferiority to Crobat. You, on the other hand, seem to be dismissing the fact that Golbat is still somewhat usable.

Why would you, with Mamo having an incredible base 130 Attack?

For whatever reason anyone else uses a physical Pokemon with less than base 130 attack.

Trick Room is all you can come up with?

What's wrong with Trick Room?

Will get eliminated quickly

Alright, maybe...

It's rock-ground. Easily finished off by Grass Knot or Surf before it can even Dance up.

Still a good switch-in for electric attacks, but you make a valid point on this one.

I don't get it. Defences are pathetic.

It gets Dragon Dance and some physical moves, and is pure Dragon. All those are benefits I listed for Shelgon. Dragonair just doesn't have Shelgon's relatively high defense.

Why don't you try using a Pokemon with base stats 40/30/32/50/52/65?

No comment on that one

Because they're cool?

Kadabra/Haunter or Alakazam/Gengar?

Ah Trick Room again..

The problem being....?

More trick room BS

See previous comment.

It's just cuter, is what it is

It is cuter, I'll give you that, but it can still run the same strategy, and its HP doesn't suck.


Abomasnow and Hippowdon are more resourceful. Then go "experience" defeat yourself

Something has to be done. We have to know whether or not Snover and Hippopotas would ruin UU.


They won't.

I ask, what is the problem with trying to introduce NFEs into the metagame? We did it with Pikachu, Vigoroth, Scyther, and Porygon2, so why not any OTHER competitively viable NFE?

 

[Erodent]

The introduced Nfes you mentioned were put in tiers because they had some special difference connecting themselves and their evolutions (light ball, deepseaitems...) the ones YOU are trying to introduce are worse variations of commendable pokemon. There is nothing wrong with trick room except the light you present it in (wow this has good atk but low speed, trick room necessary!)

 

[Deck Knight]

I ask, what is the problem with trying to introduce NFEs into the metagame? We did it with Pikachu, Vigoroth, Scyther, and Porygon2, so why not any OTHER competitively viable NFE?

Because no other NFEs are, er, competitively viable.

You are free to introduce any NFE at all onto your team. When you suffer defeat, inform us how our warnings were innaccurate.

Though to be honest, once we finally get Tutor moves on NFE I'll probably be trying out a L1 Swinub with Ice Shard and Endeavor.

 

[eric the espeon]

I don't think he is suggesting NFEs be used in OU (I hope he is not), but in UU (or whenever NU exists) some of them could be competitively viable.
Here is a PR topic about NFEs in UU. The general agreement is that NFEs should be allowed.

 

[SkarmBlissFTW]

I don't think he is suggesting NFEs be used in OU (I hope he is not), but in UU (or whenever NU exists) some of them could be competitively viable.
Here is a PR topic about NFEs in UU. The general agreement is that NFEs should be allowed.

This. There are 493 Pokémon, but do you realize that we are only using about 200 (probably less, since NU isn't played) of them?

I want more NFEs in UU and OU. Just saying Hippopotas is OU because his evolution is makes me sick.

 

[Erodent]

How is hippopotas OU? and I dont get why hippowdon makes you sick.

That's better

 

[evolutia]

NFE's will be tested when the UU tier gets revamped, so the viable ones will be revealed. I am curious though to see if Wynaut will be tested though...

EDIT: Erodent, I think you need to reread the previous post carefully and adapt your's accordingly.

 

[Ellington]

Wynaut wont get tested, or at least it really shouldn't, because no matter how weak it is you still can't switch to a counter.

 

[Erodent]

Interesting ones should definitely be revealed; but ones that have same types, lower stats and the same moveset are useless (save special item boosts or different abilities)...why use worse when better is available?

 

[X-Act]

My personal opinion is that all NFEs should be treated as valid Pokemon, and they shouldn't be banned in any tier except if they're moved to BL or Ubers.

And they should be moved to BL or Ubers only if they're too good for UU or OU respectively, not because they're NFEs.

 

[Deco]

How is hippopotas OU? and I dont get why hippowdon makes you sick.

That's better

No, what SkarmBlissFTW is saying, is that the mentality of people who consider Hippopotas to be OU just because Hippowdon is OU, makes him sick. Not that Hippowdon makes him sick.

And I agree with X-Act on this issue. As I said a long time ago, I would really like to see a tier system in which every Pokemon is listed, even though the chance of that happening is very small (if only because it would take an insane amount of time).

 

[evolutia]

My personal opinion is that all NFEs should be treated as valid Pokemon, and they shouldn't be banned in any tier except if they're moved to BL or Ubers.

And they should be moved to BL or Ubers only if they're too good for UU or OU respectively, not because they're NFEs.

Just to make your point perfectly clear. If that mindset is to be applied then Wynaut would also fall under that category, correct?

._. and thanks Deco for pointing that out...I guess I should of been more direct in my response to Erodent.

 

[cim]

We're imminently about to allow all NFEs in new UU. Nintendo's definition of what is evolved and what is a base form with ridiculous loopy exceptions isn't going to be precedent anymore on Smogon.

 

[Stagnant]

Edit: Lol nvm double checked it.

But yea NFE's can be viable in any team. Just depends on the team..

 

[devoninja]

While I agree with X-Act that banning pokemon from any tier should be done by the same process for NFEs as it is for fully evolved pokemon (i.e. only ban them if their broken, not arbitrarily based on their evolved form), I don't see any point in specifically listing the tier for everypokemon.
Assuming that all the NFEs were to be unbanned from UU (none are banned in OU as it is), they would almost all be UU and we wouldn't need a tier list to tell us that. Obviously none of them is going to reach OU level usage (or else they already would have) and maybe 3 of them would get banned to BL (possibly wynaut and the weather changers).
What then would be the point of making a humongous list of all 493 pokemon just so that a bunch of pokemon, which are already UU by definition, can have "UU" next to their name.
Viable or not NFEs don't need to be specifically placed in a tier unless it's to ban them from UU.

 

[petrie911]

You forgot Magneton. 10 more base speed than Magnezone can help. I don't exactly know when, but it can.

EDIT: 70 base speed means max speed ScarfTon outspeeds Timid Skymin, though it unfortunately falls just 2 points short of outspeeding +speed 130ers. The best ScarfZone can do is outpseeding neutral speed 130ers, though it can only do that with a 31 speed IV. Of course, when it comes to trapping Steels, ScarfZone really only needs enough to beat Jolly Lucario, and can pour the rest into bulkyness.

 

[Deco]

Viable or not NFEs don't need to be specifically placed in a tier unless it's to ban them from UU.

Maybe, but personally, I would find it quite interesting to see which ones will be UU and which ones will be NU... Especially NU would become a completely different metagame with a large number of extra non-overpowered NFE Pokemon.

Or there could even be extra tiers. I'm not saying we should create a tier in which only Caterpie, Weedle, Magikarp and some other bullshit Pokemon are allowed, but with all those Pokemon, you could distinguish high UU and low UU I guess...

As I said, that's probably not going to happen anytime soon, but whatever. =P

 

[scorchedsky]

I always thought the Hippopotas/Snover ban in UU was specifically to prevent auto-weather effects in UU, regardless of where their evolutions are tiered?

 

[NextDimension]

i understand using these said NFE's would be cool however the reason the metagame is failing right now is because people want to win and so they will use Ou's to win I Do that myself so if you are trying to win why use nfes

also NFE's in UU would be cool with the exception of some pokes .eg Snover, hippopotas

 

[Missingno. Master]

I'm not saying we should create a tier in which only Caterpie, Weedle, Magikarp and some other bullshit Pokemon are allowed

Woah, woah, woah, back it up there, man. That's actually not too bad an idea! A real bottom-of-the-barrel tier where the super-weak Pokemon like Weedle, Caterpie, Magikarp, Luvdisc, and the like can make their home... I can see such a tier being called... LU (Laughably Useless). And Kricketot, Metapod, Wurmple, Kakuna, Silcoon, Cascoon, Burmy, Feebas, Beldum, Unown.... Yes! Yes, that's a great idea! An idea worthy of me, I'd say. In fact, I don't know why I never thought of it before! A great, novelty tier for anything that can't learn TMs, plus Feebas and Luvdisc.....

I always thought the Hippopotas/Snover ban in UU was specifically to prevent auto-weather effects in UU, regardless of where their evolutions are tiered?

I thought they were? I see no other reason to ban those two from UU.

And the whole idea of, a Pokemon gains an evolution, and that Pokemon is no longer considered for competitive battle. I don't understand that! If it was viable before, nothing's stopping it now. Take Piloswine. In GSC, it was UU. In RSE, thanks to losing Curse, it was NU. Now it's not in ANY tier, thanks to Mamoswine. And after getting Curse back, too! That potentially gave Piloswine the chance to wriggle back up into the UU tier.

 

[petrie911]

Considering the entire BL tier is about to get dumped into UU and the NFEs with them, I'm not sure what the relevance of this is. Besides, the only NFEs of OU pokemon I can see competing in UU are Haunter, Kadabra, and Chansey. Things like Monferno and Gabite simply don't have the raw stats needed to compete.

 

[Bourbon]

if you want to play with NFEs, play little cup, but seriously, quit with this "hey guys lets all use NFEs" BS because it's getting quite annoying. You ruined 2-3 pages of the Creative Moveset thread with this already.

There is absolutely no reason to use Shelgon over Salamence. Factoring in Intimidate Salamence is tougher on the physical side, and it takes almost as much from Ice Beams as Salamence does thanks to it's craptacular Special Defense. Also Salamence has Roost, higher Attack, higher Speed...

Dragonair is even worse, it has NOTHING over Dragonite and thanks to Dragonite's stat placement, it too takes about as much damage from Iced Beams as Dragonair. Shed Skin is the only reason to use Dragonair over Dragonite, and even then, it's still useless.

Your lame "better in Trick Room" thing is getting irritating as well. Since when is being slow a good thing!? You can't have it both ways. If an NFE is slower than it's OU counterpart, you say "better in trick room". If it's faster, you mention "it's faster". For starters, 5 or 10 more base speed points isn't worth the huge drop in defenses and offenses that NFEs are plagued with. Secondly, in Trick Room, you'll pretty much always be slower than your opponent to begin with, so using a crappy, slower NFE doesn't matter unless the fully evolved counterpart can't get it's speed below 146 (speed of blissey).

Please do the community a favor and stop posting this. If you want to use NFE's, play little cup.