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Why do people want to ban more and more things?

It's like when your favorite basketball team loses game 7 of the conference finals because someone makes a hail-mary halfcourt shot as the clock is running out. It's utter bullshit, and it's completely beyond either team's control. He just throws the ball up somewhere in the vicinity of the basket, probably without aiming or even looking much, and hopes it goes in.
That's an example of making your own luck. The team with the ball knows that need a basket in the final seconds, so they take the final gamble.

And what's to say that your favorite team didn't get to their finals spot with an equally large (though more subtle) amount of luck against the team they beat?

I recently read a book called The Drunkard's Walk: How Randomness Rules Our Lives. The basic premise of the book is that random factors have a huge influence in how life works out, especially in situations where you have incomplete knowledge.

Even if Pokemon had no critical hits, all moves always hit (barring specific moves like Fly that causes them to miss), the damage formula was 100% consistent, full paralysis didn't exist, and all the other elements of luck programmed into it were removed, luck would still play a significant part in any Pokemon match. Allow me to explain:

Let us assume a battle between two reasonable competent people. When you begin a Pokemon match, the only information you know about your opponent's team is the lead Pokemon, and in rare cases it's Ability. (The foe's Aerodactyl is exerting its Pressure!) The rest of your opponent's team, as well as their Items, Abilities, Movesets, Natures, EV spreads, and even their overall playstyle are entirely unknown to you. The exact same thing applies to your opponent. Until you know what your opponent is running, the pregame is largely guesswork on both player's parts. "Prediction" at this stage doesn't exist, it's largely just picking attacks at random and seeing what happens. Because both players don't know how the other's team is set up, there's a high probability that at this stage one of the players might inadvetantly make a wrong switch that devastates one of their team members. Blissey don't normally carry Grass Knot, so you might feel safe switching a Tyranitar in to beat her.

In the early game, with incomeplete information, the luck factor is huge, and cannot be avoided even if you could gain comeplete knowledge of your opponent's team beforehand. The opponent's playstyle would still be an unknown factor.

Even in the late game "prediction" is still largely hit or miss. Again, assuming that both players are reasonably close in skill, each player is roughly equally capable of outpredicting (and subsequently underpredicting) the opponent. The rate that one opponent would outguess that other in this kind of situation is largely a coin flip (or a dice roll, if you prefer). Gambles take place even at this level. You only need to read warstory comments saying "I left Gyarados in hoping he'd expect a switch and wouldn't use Thunderbolt..." or other things like that to realize that that decision was less of a prediction and more a calculated risk, i.e., a gamble, and therefore has an element of luck.

So, against anybody more skilled than a total newb, "prediction" is not fortelling the future, but more trying as best you can to either hedge your bets against the unexpected or making ballsy risks in the hope of a high reward.

In fact, in light of this new reasoning that I have just thought of, I will cease using the word "prediction". It's just not a proper description, and like "overcentralization" it's largely become an empty word. "Calculated risk", "educated guess", or evenly just simply "hunch" is a much more accurate word to use.

The point has been brought up before somewhere else, and I'll repeat it here. Skill in Pokemon does not come from eliminating luck, but in properly managing luck so that the odds are as in your favor as they can be. Luck will always be present.

So be happy, use your Paraflinching Jirachis/Togekisses and Super Luck Scope Lens Focus Energy Absols and let the luck flow. At the very least learn to deal with it, and stop saying that a match with one full paralysis and a critical hit has too much hax. I know I will.
 
Clearly this is the type of argument that will pretty much never end as long as we play DPpt in this community.

Its starting to suck the fun out of playing, when all the community wants to do is bitch and complain and successfully ban something every five seconds. I was playing Shoddy when Garchomp started to become an issue. I quit for awhile and played again once Garchomp was ousted. Now Stealth Rock is the pain in the ass of everyone and their mother, and it has been for I dont know how many months now, and its getting pretty fucking dumb.

I dont swing one way or the other over pro ban anti ban anything because at the end of the day, a vote happens. Suspect things get tested, and it becomes decided whether or not said suspect things will continue to be allowed, and we move on down the list to the next suspect thing. I enjoy playing competitive pokemon so I roll with the punches and whenever I'm not tired of it, I continue to play the game.

At any rate, after any bitching moaning and complaning, after any testing, and after any winning or losing you continue to play the game right? Then why not eliminate the middleman of all this and quit the bitching.

Its a community, not a daycare. If you dont like the rules, go play somewhere else.
 
except cacturne's strongest attack, sucker punch, can be set up on, cacturne is slower, cacturne has several weaknesses, cacturne is frail.

Cacturne has SD, Stabbed Priority 80 Bp Move, 115 attack AND Special Attack, Sand Veil, pretty amazing move pool, and can take down bulky waters no problem.

Cacturne for Uber

Edit:

Also I could careless how ban happy Smogon gets. I enjoy using UU so I'll be a step ahead of most other players :). If anything I cannot express how frustrating this testing process is to me. Wow, just thinking about it is aggravating....
 
Chou, if people like change why were they not welcome of Skymin? Or even Scizor?

Scizor is traditionally Standard, and for better or worse Skymin-S never had time as an Uber, so we start from it being in OU. Also note how close that one ended up being compared to Garchomp or Deoxys-E.

Like I said, it's just a hypothesis of mine. People like feeling special by "we banned chomp!" "We banned Skymin-S!" No one will feel special saying "We put Lati@s in Ubers where it started off from anyway!"

In other words, if you propose to have a test, you are already starting from the point that community has a feeling it "might" belong the other way. We just like putting that "might" in there to make us feel like we're being un-biased.

Again, I'm saying I think Lati@s is going to be interesting because it's the first test regarding a traditionally Uber pokemon. If you look through the thread on Lati@s there are very few posts going "OMG LaT1@S is FUCKING UUUBER!!" and there are a lot more posts with genuine interest in giving them a shot.

Yes but those people who play five-color magic will never amount to anything when you compare them to the players that only go to sanctioned tournaments. Basically, we're scrubs.

Since it's inception, pokemon has been about singles. The goal is to be the champion of singles. The anime, the in game play, the in game functions, the pokemon tradition, it all is aimed with a focus on singles. Until the official tournaments recognize singles, I can't see them as anything but retarded.
 
^ Exclamation Point, I Dunno if that's sarcasm or not -__-

Regarding this though, Syberia made a nice comment here:
Cacturne's defenses: 282/156/156
Cacturne's speed: 209

Garchomp's defenses: 358/226/206
Garchomp's speed: 333
Clearly even in the UU tier, Cacturne can be defeated, but this is kinda similar to Garchomp's previous case in OU except Cacturne lacks a Thunder wave and Sandstorm immunity, which can prove large HP losses in the long run. Also, sand is very uncommon in UU which is another reason it does not see as much use as it could.

And Cacturne in uber would just get destroyed by every groudon that comes in. Factoring in a Pokemon's outer environment is also very important when considering it's tier.
 
^ Exclamation Point, I Dunno if that's sarcasm or not -__-

Regarding this though, Syberia made a nice comment here:

Clearly even in the UU tier, Cacturne can be defeated, but this is kinda similar to Garchomp's previous case in OU except Cacturne lacks a Thunder wave and Sandstorm immunity, which can prove large HP losses in the long run. Also, sand is very uncommon in UU which is another reason it does not see as much use as it could.

And Cacturne in uber would just get destroyed by every groudon that comes in. Factoring in a Pokemon's outer environment is also very important when considering it's tier.

No, it's not. How many times do we have to say, "The performance of a pokemon in Ubers has nothing to do with it being OU or not." We don't give a damn whether Garchomp/Deoxys-E/Skymin see the light of day in Ubers or not. I don't care if Cacturn would eat crap or not in Ubers.

lol, actually sandveil hax is such a bitch I really wouldn't mind seeing gliscor and cacturne go to Ubers. Mamoswine, Froslass, Machamp, Togekiss and Jirachi can go to the bastards. :P
 
Cacturne's got Sand Veil, making it immune to Sandstorm, but that's beside the point. Quit feeding Setrack, and quit derailing the discussion with Cacturne is Uber discussion.
 
And Cacturne in uber would just get destroyed by every groudon that comes in. Factoring in a Pokemon's outer environment is also very important when considering it's tier.
Ubers is a banlist from OU, not a tier. What is traditionally called the Uber metagame is better thought of as the metagame were no Pokemon are banned.
 
Are you guys seriously arguing about Cacturne's tiering?

You're completely missing the point of his troll. Things aren't Uber because they have some laundry list of hype reasons and theorymon. Things are Uber if people say they limit the game too much. That's the generic "too centralized" argument.

The whole reason voting is subjective is because there's no way to gauge centralization and "what is too centrailized", but people start voting for bullshit like "increases luck" or "no paper counters" and everything goes to shit.
 
This brings me to my next point, when should we classify something as Uber? Uber is something that means it has counters, but the counters fail some of the time.

Consider Kyogre. Ludicolo will stop just about every set, and those sets that defeat Ludicolo are severely weakened against the rest of the game. Kyogre is therefore not uber, because Ludicolo will not fail.
 
Consider Kyogre. Ludicolo will stop just about every set, and those sets that defeat Ludicolo are severely weakened against the rest of the game. Kyogre is therefore not uber, because Ludicolo will not fail.

I don't really think it necessary to further highlight the futility of trying to write a definition of Uber. :/ Especially any arguement regarding counters tends to be extremely laughable. Though of course, that comment by Gen is wrong.
 
Here's the best definition of an uber:

Something is uber (or BL for the underused metagame) if the general community does not want it to be in that metagame.

Seriously, that's the definition. We could happily play a game without any ban list if we wanted to. When I played the TCG, there was no ban list except those from rotating sets (to keep us buying the newer cards), and nobody complained, even though there were cards that were worthless and others that were 'uber'. From about 500 legal cards, maybe 30 or 40 of them were playable. This didn't stop us from playing the game and trying to find counters for the 'uber' cards.
 
Something is uber (or BL for the underused metagame) if the general community does not want it to be in that metagame.

I agree, and have posted this exact view in PR. People overall seem unwilling to accept that view though (which is really why Gen even posted this thread, because he can't accept it).

People want to define uber around centralization, stats, and game functions-- THAT really is futile.
 
I agree, and have posted this exact view in PR. People overall seem unwilling to accept that view though (which is really why Gen even posted this thread, because he can't accept it).

People want to define uber around centralization, stats, and game functions-- THAT really is futile.

Why wouldn't we? I mean, we want a concrete understanding of the game and not handwave our way through.

Although "I wouldn't have a problem with your view" if the users actually knew what they were talking about - which i'm not quite convinced they do considering people are still regurgitating things without understanding them :(
 
Agreed with topic post. Banning something is worthwhile if it is limiting the metagame, as seemed to be the case with Garchomp, as one was presented with only the options of using it, using multiple devoted counters to it, or dying to it. Apparently it was 20K uses above the second most used Pokemon during its heyday.

None of this applies to Skymin. It is not the most commonly used Pokemon, and not even in the top 10. It is not hard to counter and does not require multiple counters at all. It isn't centralizing in the way that Garchomp was; people only seem to be paying attention to it because it is suspect, not because it is sweeping teams.
 
the thing is "what benefits the metagame" is way too complex a function for anyone to actually define with a simple argument like 'moltres is nerfed' or even 'eq is favored because all fliers are nerfed'. doing it all via stats is the safest approach no matter what =\
 
it's an objective assessment of "what the community wants" which is a 'large enough' "degree of freedom in teambuilding/making srategies". moves like double team have been "theorized" to reduce this degree of freedom, like scarf spore breloom. hence intrinsic clauses based on rough estimates of 'large enough' (which remains undefined as x-act said)
 
it's an objective assessment of "what the community wants" which is a 'large enough' "degree of freedom in teambuilding/making srategies". moves like double team have been "theorized" to reduce this degree of freedom, like scarf spore breloom. hence intrinsic clauses based on rough estimates of 'large enough' (which remains undefined as x-act said)

Which is what?

I am not trying to be cute. I am just being frank that you are not at all explaining to me a clearly defined method of "defining Uber objectively based on stats."

What is an intrinsic clause based on a rough estimate?

Moreover, are you really telling me a pokemon is or is not Uber based on whether or not there is enough "diversity" in the metagame? Not to mention that you cannot peg a degree of diversity to any one pokemon in the metagame, even with isolated testing, due to a number of ever-shifting metagame forces?

Plus add in that "too much" has to be defined subjectively?

X-Act even agreed with me because it is just that:

"Something is uber (or BL for the underused metagame) if the general community does not want it to be in that metagame."

You won't find a more justifiable definition. The only thing we can do is try to make a means of reaching that community decision through more satisfying means.
 
You won't find a more justifiable definition. The only thing we can do is try to make a means of reaching that community decision through more satisfying means.
but it's pretty much always "i don't want to deal with this" right? i dont want to deal with ray sweeping my OUs all the time which he is obviously capable of doing, im gonna ban him immediately. that is an intrinsic clause based on a rough estimate. the estimate is rough but the effect is "large enough that we choose to predict it" and ban before it's a problem.

this "effect" is pretty much always "reducion of degrees of freedom in strategy execution" which is essentially "skill". people voted skymin uber because the instances in which it required very little skill were "obvious" despite needing little skill to beat it being demonstrable r_r;


this is just an "opinion" but it's based on the "opinion" that things (usage statistics) don't happen for no reason, despite there being so many factors that it's "extremely niosy". a thread on smogon will impact usage but that's because we're still "figuring things out"
 
My views are really pissing people off, eh? Good.

Without any sort of controversy this game would be less popular and there would be less discussion and a lot less to do. The ladders and the suspect testing is the best thing to happen to competitive pokémon in my opinion because it gets people talking about it. Some believe there is no such thing as bad hype, right? In that case people are talking about SR even if they think what I am doing is silly. So, why should I stop if people are talking about it?

Everyone has their own interpretation of an ideal metagame. So I wouldn't worry too much about it.
 
@Gorm-- Ok, I think I got what you were trying to say there. I agree for the most part.

@Myth-- I don't think people play this game for the controversy . . . I'm sure a good number of the players think all the "smogon politics" is retarded. The thing most of the players value is not "a balanced metagame,"-- it's strength, skill. What is of value is the win, or at least having fun (usually through winning, lol).
 
It's like when your favorite basketball team loses game 7 of the conference finals because someone makes a hail-mary halfcourt shot as the clock is running out. It's utter bullshit, and it's completely beyond either team's control. He just throws the ball up somewhere in the vicinity of the basket, probably without aiming or even looking much, and hopes it goes in.
All that sucks, but it's a part of the game, a part of the game that's so rare that when it happens and your team is on the losing end of it, you can't help but be amazed at the same time you're disappointed. Plus, isn't it your team's fault that they didn't play well enough to be up by more than two points at the end of the game?

My point is that skill beats luck out most of the time, but luck, upsets and other weird things keep the game interesting and keep it fun. I understand why battling against someone who's spammed DT 6 times is awful (and that's discounting common moves like Aura Sphere and Aerial Ace and less common but still used moves like Haze, Swift and Shock Wave or even preventative measures like Taunt), but something like that (or something like an OHKO move hitting three times in a row) is so rare that it's hard to build a strategy around that works all the time.

Now, I really don't care either way if Evasion or OHKO Clauses are unbanned. I don't train my Pokémon to have those moves now and wouldn't if they were unbanned. I guess my post was just a reaction to absurd things like people apologizing for crithax or saying that they felt "physically ill" because they were the recipients of crits. I'm not going to change minds... I guess I'm just putting an alternative view out there. *shrug*
 
It's funny. People talk about banning Shaymin-S because it creates hax but I haven't heard a rally for the banning of critical hits. I've lost more games because of critical hits than I ever have Shaymin-S.

Critical hits create an element of luck into the game and can swing the way of a match just as easily as a OHKO move but we still allow them in Pokemon: Community Edition ( or Shoddy as it is more commonly known as ), why? Because that is "Pokemon" and part of the game. At one point is a portion of the game considered acceptable luck and the other isn't.

In the end it is all hax and most are upset when it occurs to them but are excited when it works out in their favor.

Who knows where the banning of hax could lead us ( all moves have 100% accuracy because Thunder missing 30% of the time is just the oppent being lucky ).
 
You guys arn't even playing pokemon. You're playing Pokemon: Community Edition. Until you guys play in some sort of offical league where a higher power (non player-base) makes the decisions for what is useable and isn't, you are in for a world of hurt. I gurantee you, if Blizzard let the community decide what got nerfed and buffed, WoW would be ruined in weeks. If Wizards of the Coast decided to close the DCI and let the players decide what cards were banned and restricted, Magic the Gathering would become unplayable. Fast.

The community is bitter, and usually has personal baggage when it comes to problamatic entitys within the metagame. Worrying about Smogon's teiring system is futile, as it is a futile system. If you have fun, great. That's why I'm here. That's why you should be here, too. Just have fun, guys!

I take issue with this as the only 'official' rules are battletower and tournament rules which are obviously retarded. Banning ROTOM? Seriously, if we followed Nintendo's recent rules Salamence, non toysrus Dragonite, Tyranitar, and Metagross would all be banned. Shaymin would be banned, Celebi would be banned, Jirachi would be banned, the Lati twins would be legal without soul dew, all kinds of wholly illogical bans would be put in place.

Our bans agree with Nintendo bans in the obvious area, Mewtwo, Rayquaza, Groudon/Kyogre, ect. but it's the borderline where we differ. We've also banned evasion/OHKO moves for being 100% luck based, which doesn't reflect the skill of a player. Our rules aren't that different from the Nintendo rules other than that. We have less bans and a much less restrictive metagame than Nintendo too, just so you know.
 
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