Evasion: Hit or Miss?

[Thorns]

Legalising Double Team could increase the use of 'never-miss' moves like Shadow Punch or Swift. However, I am against testing Double Team altogether.

To those people saying that Double Team takes no skill, last I checked, there was skill involved in switching in a Pokemon and proceeding to use Double Team whilst your opponent takes time to increase its stats, or keep attacking you. Double Team requires a sharp mind to use, but the payoffs can be deadly.

The only true 'counter' to Double Team is 'never-miss' moves or Haze, both of which aren't the best choices competitively.

Smogon's policy on bans is 'innocent until proven guilty'. Evasion has been proven guilty.
We also strive to emulate the game as much as possible, but staying within a competitive environment.

 

[Flashstorm1]

How does Blissey not affect the metagame? Yes, we're "introducing" Evasion moves into the game by unbanning them, but consider a situation where Double Team was only broken because of Blissey, and vice versa. If we hadn't erroneously theorybanned all Evasion moves before DP even began, and the metagame evolved to include multiple Pokemon who used Double Team/Minimize in a positive, strategic manner, people would be calling for the head of the first Pokemon capable of abusing it to the point of brokenness. Obviously this is a purely hypothetical scenario and I couldn't see Double Team working out so "cleanly" (even if it's "strategic" it'll look to many like nothing more than "hax") but the fact is that we've never banned a move or item without it either being considered intrinsically broken (the "OHKOs are too luck -based" argument is what generally dominates) or otherwise "clearly at fault" for whatever Pokemon become broken when using it (Soul Dew). I fail to see how we should treat Evasion differently, instead pointing blame at an otherwise viable move just because it happens to be named "Suspect."

I understand your reasoning, but you completely missed the point of my post. Actually, I'd like to say my reasoning was also incorrect. Your argument revolved around Double Team already having been a standard in the metagame, while my argument was based on the idea of simply having brought in Double Team for testing. Sorry about any confusion my post caused.

In order to properly decide on truly creating a "suspect" standard, the community would have to vote on banning pokemon as a whole or banning individual items and moves; we cannot say the regulations have truly been decided due to Double Team having been banned in regards as a move. However, the premise of how it affects the metagame as a whole still exists, but like you said, we'd have to look into the pokemon that "make Double Team broken".

 

[k.k.2]

What about acupressure it can raise evasion by 2 stages

 

[Flashstorm1]

What about acupressure it can raise evasion by 2 stages

Acupressure most likely wouldn't be banned in regards to evasion, simply because the chance of evasion getting picked is only 1/6, which is not even close to being as "bad" as getting a surefire +1 each turn.

 

[Hipmonlee]

Example: if you use Thunderbolt for better accuracy, you may fail to OHKO a threat that Thunder may finish off. If Thunder misses then it is still a 2HKO (considering the next attack hits), meaning the trade off for TB will be of no loss; if it doesn't miss however, you reap greater benefits for better taking a bigger risk. You control the numbers that you're willing to play with and go with it; manipulating these numbers in your favor is a large part of skill in Pokémon. Evasion reduces this effect, lowering the probability of a payoff on either end, taking "management" away from you and giving it to the RNG. Is this, a greater precense of luck, something that we want in the metagame?

Doesnt Evasion increase this effect? For instance now you have a choice between Thunderbolting a pokemon which will 2hko; or you can Thunder which will OHKO protecting you from a hit, but increasing the risk; or you can DT first and then Thunderbolt or Thunder, which has the most risk, but potentially the greatest payoff. This only adds to the management.

If you are facing an Evading pokemon you still should consider the benefits of Thundering and OHKOing or Thunderbolting and increasing the likelihood of 2HKOing.

Double Team / Toxic / Protect / Softboiled.

This set is awful. It is countered by Rest, Substitute, Steels, Poisons, Toxic. Any physical attacker with a decent Fighting move still has a 1/3 chance of OHKOing you once you are fully DTed.. Even with Flamethrower over Protect, it still isnt likely to really reap the benefits of DT.

Basically, DT here is protecting you from pokemon that 2hko you (pokes that dont 2hko you arent going to be able to finish you off while you have softboiled). Which DT is very unlikely to achieve. With a DT, a poke still has a 56.25% chance of hitting you twice without missing. IE more often than not, DT will do nothing on this set.

The reason the strategy is banned and will be banned forever (even if testing does take place understanding the mentality of the community leads me to believe if would never be allowed in standard play) is because this community despises "luck based strategies". While evasion moves may not make a difference in the larger perspective, individual games would be lost based on evasion moves and I assure the community does and always will find this despicable.

The community is following a status quo established in RBY when Double Team really was the best move. But please dont speak for the community, speak for yourself.

I recently faced a SubGliscor in the Sand holding Brightpowder was haxed out of a win (the player wasn't even decent). If Double Team was somewhere on that moveset, I would of seriously told the player to fuck off out of frustration.

This sounds a lot more like a prejudice than an actual argument. You lost anyway - obviously you couldnt hit him when you needed to, so what difference would DT have made? It would have meant he would have had one less other attack, so maybe it would have allowed you to stall him out or something.

The Shuckle you faced, I am sorry, but that is a terrible moveset. See my description of the Blissey above. That Shuckle is actually worse..

Imagine if somebody used something like Gliscor with Sand Veil, DT, Bright Powder, Substitute, Roost and Baton Pass to setup something like Lucario or DDtar? This would probably fall under the Support characteristic of Tangerine's definition of an Uber with a little bit of testing.

Would you be willing to ban Gliscor to make Double Team legal?

That Gliscor is easily countered by Roar. You DT I send my Roarer, you Sub I Roar, I have a 54% chance of hitting you. You BP I have a 75% chance of hitting you. Meaning a 11.5% chance you will successfully pass 1 DT and a Substitute. What if I then send out Gliscor to counter your Lucario. I have a 75% chance of hitting you, but you only have an 80% chance of hitting me. And again, more often than not that Gliscor will 2HKO you without missing once.

Have a nice day.

 

[yokie]

I've faced a Baton Pass team that used Double Team. It was excruciating to see my Roar miss and miss while they slowly get +6 across the board. I hate mindless BP teams as it is without Double Team. Gliscor BPing DT sounds like a real terror, especially with Sand Viel.

 

[cim]

Perish Song and Yawn would have been helpful there. Also, why didn't you Roar at the first Double Team?

Let's touch on the odds that every roar will miss as someone Double Teams 6 times on your face. (.25 * .4 * .5 * .57 * .625 * .666) returns 1%. There's a 1% chance that Roar, or any move, will miss as they DT 6 times. For something to be able to get +6 in all stats with just a couple of Double Teams is kind of preposterous and definitely not something one can bank upon.

You did touch on the one instance that Double Team is most likely to be considered "broken" though,

 

[Nachos]

This sounds a lot more like a prejudice than an actual argument. You lost anyway - obviously you couldnt hit him when you needed to, so what difference would DT have made? It would have meant he would have had one less other attack, so maybe it would have allowed you to stall him out or something.

Actually, I sacrificed my Tyranitar to break it's Sub and sent in Heatran to OHKO with HP:Ice...which missed. Sucked at the time seeing as it was 3-1 and I lost because of hax.

The Shuckle you faced, I am sorry, but that is a terrible moveset. See my description of the Blissey above. That Shuckle is actually worse..

The player wasn't that intelligent, which is kinda why he didn't know what an Evasion Clause was ~_~. Anyway, I had no Poison types on my team at the time and because it was Wifi, the turns took forever, making you lose more and more concentration to what's going on.

That Gliscor is easily countered by Roar. You DT I send my Roarer, you Sub I Roar, I have a 54% chance of hitting you. You BP I have a 75% chance of hitting you. Meaning a 11.5% chance you will successfully pass 1 DT and a Substitute. What if I then send out Gliscor to counter your Lucario. I have a 75% chance of hitting you, but you only have an 80% chance of hitting me. And again, more often than not that Gliscor will 2HKO you without missing once.

So is every Baton Passer. Gliscor can learn Taunt though. Even though you can me outspeed with lots of Speed investment, there's a higher chance of you missing then me. I could then Ice Punch you while you miss and I get a free KO. Should you have lost your Gliscor due to luck? There are few competitive Roar users in OU anyway, and then they need to find a place to slot that on their moveset.

Basically, I'd rather lose to a better oppenent through skill then through some of my moves missing. The crit now and again is OK I guess, as you can't stop that. But Double Team is a move, and it can be stopped if banned.

BTW, I was thinking of how a Substitute/Double Team/Earthquake/Dragon Claw Garchomp would fare in an Evasion metagame. Something to look forward to in Stage 3 if Double Team becomes unbanned.

 

[Kalyst]

Sand Veil hax is just plain wrong-but it doesn't look like were banning pokes that have that and Snow Cloak anytime soon. It does implement certain conditions to work, but Sandstorm is so prominent...(Hail not so much so, however)

What we all need is a few people willing to survive the extreme hax and the frustraion and do an actual test of the situation. (unless it has already been extensively tested.) It might give birth to a separate branch of the metagame, but it probably won't alter much in standard play, if one were to assume that the community as a whole feels that way after testing.

Thorns pointed out what I was about to mention in my previous post-never-miss moves would be on the rise. However, it could cripple some pokes who try and do too many jobs at once or who already do so.

BP with DT should be made illegal to use, in my opinion. Honestly, Baton Pass would be abused so much, whole teams would be comprised of BPing around- and the whole three types of teams concept that a poster mentioned earlier would crop up.

 

[bobbycat]

BP with DT should be made illegal to use, in my opinion. Honestly, Baton Pass would be abused so much, whole teams would be comprised of BPing around- and the whole three types of teams concept that a poster mentioned earlier would crop up.

You're getting into a slippery slope, either Double Team would be banned altogether or it wouldn't be. Besides, Baton Pass is not a popular strategy right now because a BP chain can easily fail.

 

[Veedrock]

You're getting into a slippery slope, either Double Team would be banned altogether or it wouldn't be. Besides, Baton Pass is not a popular strategy right now because a BP chain can easily fail.

Yeah, they fail now, but when Double Team is thrown into the mix, things get trickier. Baton Pass frees up space in the final recievers movepool to hit more threats and it also relieves the problem of healing AND evasion boosting (which takes up 1/2 your moveslots beforehand).

Like I said, Baton Pass is the only reason I'm against evasion boosters right now. The concept is scary. It doesn't even need to be a big ass chain. Just DT until it's too dangerous, pass to a counter that has a boosting move (such as Dragon Dance), and then after a boost or 3 (depending on how much they hit), sweep half to all of the other team because they either can't hit or when they do it's not enough to finish the job.

 

[scorchedsky]

Sub/Roost/DT/Baton Pass @ Brightpowder would be terribly annoying on Gliscor in the sand, but then you're left with no attacking moves, which makes Gliscor significantly less of a threat...still, it'd be a completely unexplored option, and worthy of testing

 

[Kalyst]

scorched- That would suck if anything Taunted it, though. Maybe it might never hit, but maybe it will...? In any case, the poor thing might struggle to death unless he switches out. But I guess if someone really wanted to, they could test it.

Veedock-When you say"DT until it's too dangerous", do you mean for the DTing pokemon (as in there might be a risk that the evasion boosts don't kick in or they have a non-miss move) or for the opponent (where it's near impossible to hit)?

I still stick a bit to testing it, since it seems that it's been debated more on paper than actually ran. (that is, unless people have already tested it in the current gen. and I just don't know.) Though I can honestly understand why no one would really want too.

bobbycat- Hmmm, I haven't thought of BP chains having failed in recent scenarios but setting up might have fallen out of favor..? I've seen BPing being used more recently to get out of bad situations other than passing stat changes, which is what would be more beneficial.

 

[musiquev24]

If you played World of Warcraft at a competitive level (even though it is kind of a joke right now), you'd know that RNG (Random Number Generator, anything that is based on randomness, luck, etc) is something that destroys a competetive game. Bringing something like evasion into pokemon would be the worst decision ever, and I'm so glad it doesn't have evasion in it already.

Isn't it silly enough that stone edge and meteor mash miss enough?

 

[Objection]

That's why I try to use only moves with 100% accuracy (note, by that I don't mean always-hit moves like Aerial Ace) - just one miss can make the difference between victory and defeat. Evasion-boosting moves are nothing more than a cheap way of making the chance of that one miss occurring even higher. In fact, I can say from experience after facing a +2 evasion Drapion (it got its boosts from Acupressure, which I thought was BS - Evasion clause needs to address that) that moves with 100% accuracy almost never hit the target.

 

[Veedrock]

If you want some real experience with evasion, go play the Pre-gym in Colosseum. The leader uses DT Sandshrew in a sandstorm. And when I put out the sandstorm with RD, he put it back up! It took like 7 turns to hit him twice (which was enough to do the job luckily). That's the type of time that lets the opponent set up a counter-offensive or something. But like I pointed out, what adequate player would throw his chances of winning into the RNG? And if adequate players do start doing that, then it will be an issue of course.

Hm...DT, Belly Drum, Rest, Last Resort Snorlax. @___@ it'd take too long to set up, but I wouldn't want to face that.

 

[Steinhauser]

Broken or not, I can't see the inclusion of evasion moves making the metagame anything but less enjoyable to play in. I know Smogon's system of banishment isn't supposed to be a way to get rid of things people don't like for whatever reason, but shouldn't the game be an enjoyable competetive experience above all else? Even if luck evens out over many games, and it does, battling in an environment with a larger luck element makes the game more frustrating and less fun to play.

 

[diinbong]

If someone wants to use Evasion, turn off the evasion clause. No one is forcing you to play with it, so abuse that power. Whether it is "moral" or "healthy for the matagame" doesn't really matter considering the amount of poeople not willing to play with it.

 

[Phizzlax]

Ghost types completely wall that Snorlax, physical sweepers setup or dismantle him quickly, and anything with a fighting attack just laughs at it and kills it. Sub seeders, anything faster with Sub can PP stall Last resort quickly (especially something like Raikou with Pressure).

There are several reasons why it being banned matters, despite being available casually. Firstly, some players I'm sure would like to ladder with DT legal. Secondly, most players who have evasion clause on all the time have probably never played a match without it, and either have no opinion of it and want their opponent to be aware that they're not using evasion moves themself, or they hate evasion just because everyone else does. If I ever saw a challenge and evasion clause was not being used, I would always assume my opponent is using a DT team (and if DT was legal in laddering, the majority of teams would probably not run DT on their teams at all anyway).

Most of the "broken" uses of DT seem very easily stopped by methods already commonly used.

It's been said already in this thread, but I basically feel the moveslot and time to setup doubleteam, mixed with how often it can fail outright (phazed, walled, opponent hits through your evasion), is not worth the payoff. LUCK is a factor in Pokemon, a huge factor, I don't see why there's so much of a fuss about it. If we didn't have a problem throwing around 70 accuracy hypnosis' that could make or break a battle, I don't see why letting doubleteam into the environment is "too luck based". This move is a method of damage mitigation that seems luck based on the short term, but statistically is exactly what it looks like on paper. As it's been pointed out earlier, the chance of missing 6 times in a row while they're DTing is 1%, the same as the odds of freezing on consecutive Ice Beams.

I have definitely not seen any set in this thread that justifies the evasion ban (which was basically arbitrary to begin with).

 

[Veedrock]

Broken or not, I can't see the inclusion of evasion moves making the metagame anything but less enjoyable to play in. I know Smogon's system of banishment isn't supposed to be a way to get rid of things people don't like for whatever reason, but shouldn't the game be an enjoyable competetive experience above all else? Even if luck evens out over many games, and it does, battling in an environment with a larger luck element makes the game more frustrating and less fun to play.

That reminds me of Shaymin-S.

If someone wants to use Evasion, turn off the evasion clause. No one is forcing you to play with it, so abuse that power. Whether it is "moral" or "healthy for the matagame" doesn't really matter considering the amount of poeople not willing to play with it.

As Phizzlax said, you can't ladder with it, and as a standard most competitions are going to include that clause. And for that last sentence, that's not the reason things should be banned. Shaymin-S is a perfect example.

Ghost types completely wall that Snorlax, physical sweepers setup or dismantle him quickly, and anything with a fighting attack just laughs at it and kills it. Sub seeders, anything faster with Sub can PP stall Last resort quickly (especially something like Raikou with Pressure).

I know, it was a 20 second set. Ghosts should fear Crunch, and anything can be countered/walled. I didn't say it was a perfect set :P

There are several reasons why it being banned matters, despite being available casually. Firstly, some players I'm sure would like to ladder with DT legal. Secondly, most players who have evasion clause on all the time have probably never played a match without it, and either have no opinion of it and want their opponent to be aware that they're not using evasion moves themself, or they hate evasion just because everyone else does. If I ever saw a challenge and evasion clause was not being used, I would always assume my opponent is using a DT team (and if DT was legal in laddering, the majority of teams would probably not run DT on their teams at all anyway).

You have no proof. That's simply a claim. Same thing could be said about any clause as an "argument" to remove it.

Most of the "broken" uses of DT seem very easily stopped by methods already commonly used.

Common? Name some. Yawn and Perish song aren't exactly "common."

It's been said already in this thread, but I basically feel the moveslot and time to setup doubleteam, mixed with how often it can fail outright (phazed, walled, opponent hits through your evasion), is not worth the payoff. LUCK is a factor in Pokemon, a huge factor, I don't see why there's so much of a fuss about it. If we didn't have a problem throwing around 70 accuracy hypnosis' that could make or break a battle, I don't see why letting doubleteam into the environment is "too luck based". This move is a method of damage mitigation that seems luck based on the short term, but statistically is exactly what it looks like on paper. As it's been pointed out earlier, the chance of missing 6 times in a row while they're DTing is 1%, the same as the odds of freezing on consecutive Ice Beams.

I have definitely not seen any set in this thread that justifies the evasion ban (which was basically arbitrary to begin with).

For starters, you won't see any set that "justifies" evasion ban unless we set to the task specifically. Evasion is very difficult to theorymon because it is luck based. Theorymon says that you won't hit me, but counter-theorymon says you smack me in the next turn. The actual game says "Let me decide, not your silly theorymon." This is why we need testing (individual or community-wide).

"LUCK is a factor in Pokemon, a huge factor, I don't see why there's so much of a fuss about it." As for this, there's fuss because in competition, you have control over everything and the best man wins. Luck reduces this factor and the worser player always has a chance to win against the best, if "luck" is on his side. Now with controlled luck (statistical management), you assess the risks, you know the costs of risking bigger and make your decisions based on this information. Evasion reduces your control over this luck, throwing it into the hands of the RNG. Hence, controversial. If 75% of my matches end in me winning because I got that magic hit through evasion or losing because I didn't, that's not the game I want to be playing.

 

[UltimoVenusaur]

Hm...DT, Belly Drum, Rest, Last Resort Snorlax. @___@ it'd take too long to set up, but I wouldn't want to face that.

That gets walled hard by Ghosts, but whatever.

I almost got myself banned with my tl;dr rant about it, so if you remember that, you know I'm for unbanning it and banning as few moves as possible. That being said, I know how annoying it is facing an opponent that spams DT (even if it's just the CPU in the RPG), and I can see why it is banned and why it'll be so hard to unban.

However, I just see the move as so hard to implement in a viable moveset for anything but a fringe BL/UU to use. Even if they are unbanned, there are measures against their affecting the match. Use of Haze will go up, as will the appearance of Shock Wave/Aerial Ace/Faint Attack on a lot of sets.

 

[petrie911]

Haze seems like a perfectly viable counter to DT. Also, Odor Sleuth, Foresight, and Miracle Eye, which not only remove all evasion bonuses, but also prevent the opponent from gaining them until the opponent switches out. Never miss moves are also an option, as is No Guard Machamp. If OHKOs are allowed, they ignore accuracy modifiers.

And while admittedly most Hazers can be taunted, few things can taunt a Hazing Crobat. Crobat can also Taunt and Hypnosis things, and it has passable defenses, too.

 

[Phizzlax]

Common? Name some. Yawn and Perish song aren't exactly "common."

Anyone trying to BP some baton passes begs for a PHazer to come in do their thing, if they try to Double Team up all the way AND pass it, there's almost no chance it will work. All of the none-BP suggestions so far have been tanking pokemon sets that look like
Toxic
DT
Heal
Utility/Attack

These sets are all walled or ruined in some way easily by most taunters, steel types, other walls, poison types, AND phazers. Other options like the ones you mentioned are still available to paranoid players, like Perish Trapping or Toxic Spikes (against Blissey or other non-rest DT users).



For starters, you won't see any set that "justifies" evasion ban unless we set to the task specifically. Evasion is very difficult to theorymon because it is luck based. Theorymon says that you won't hit me, but counter-theorymon says you smack me in the next turn. The actual game says "Let me decide, not your silly theorymon." This is why we need testing (individual or community-wide).

You're right, it's really hard to say here, but the purpose of a test would be to "set to the task". I realize there are a lot of other things that need to be tested, but IMO evasion should be added to the list for the same reasons Lati@s' are being added. Banned without a chance or a test.

"LUCK is a factor in Pokemon, a huge factor, I don't see why there's so much of a fuss about it." As for this, there's fuss because in competition, you have control over everything and the best man wins. Luck reduces this factor and the worser player always has a chance to win against the best, if "luck" is on his side. Now with controlled luck (statistical management), you assess the risks, you know the costs of risking bigger and make your decisions based on this information. Evasion reduces your control over this luck, throwing it into the hands of the RNG. Hence, controversial. If 75% of my matches end in me winning because I got that magic hit through evasion or losing because I didn't, that's not the game I want to be playing.

The worse player already has a chance to win because of luck, unbanning DT wouldn't change that. A lot of games are already decided by one player using WoW or Sleep Powder or whatever, where if it hits the player using it wins and if it misses the other player wins. That's 75% accuracy =( this is of course the most controllable instance of luck. Crits and random secondary effects certainly determine the outcome of some matches as well.

 

[Veedrock]

Alright, so Haze, an already rare move, is necessary on every team (probably at least twice in case you lose your hazer) to counter DT? We should forced to use up more of our movepools to use half useless moves like Odor Sleuth, etc just to counter it? Lol, no miss moves are like 60 power. Aura sphere is 90, but is only learned by two pokemon in OU. And teams are going to require Machamp just to hit these BT users?

Yeah, I'm not too fond of the idea of being forced to carry a hazer, some useless moves, multiple no-miss moves (you really think one pokemon is going to do the job?), or Machamp/Bibarel just to counter Double Team.

This is something else that irks me about evasion. Even if it turns out to be "rare" it can still hit hard if you aren't prepared just right, and by having to prepare for it in an already tight metagame is going to suck. Bad. Sure, those things aren't completely necessary to beat evasion, but without them it's just that much harder.

And if it is legalized, somebody will find some godsend set or strategy that will destroy everything. If it could be done with Wobb, I don't see why it couldn't be done with evasion.

Ok, end of that rant. I just don't like the idea of having to carry something else around (leaving me more vulnerable to everything else) in order to not get floored by evasion teams.

 

[Hipmonlee]

Alright, so Haze, an already rare move, is necessary on every team (probably at least twice in case you lose your hazer) to counter DT? We should forced to use up more of our movepools to use half useless moves like Odor Sleuth, etc just to counter it? Lol, no miss moves are like 60 power. Aura sphere is 90, but is only learned by two pokemon in OU. And teams are going to require Machamp just to hit these BT users?

Yeah, I'm not too fond of the idea of being forced to carry a hazer, some useless moves, multiple no-miss moves (you really think one pokemon is going to do the job?), or Machamp/Bibarel just to counter Double Team.

If teams have Machamp, what do they need Haze for? Suddenly teams have to have Haze, or Machamp, or Bibarel, or Perish Song, or one of those moves you listed, or Roar/Whirlwind or Yawn?

If people start using moves they arent currently using then that kinda sounds like DT is having a positive effect on the game.

This is something else that irks me about evasion. Even if it turns out to be "rare" it can still hit hard if you aren't prepared just right, and by having to prepare for it in an already tight metagame is going to suck. Bad. Sure, those things aren't completely necessary to beat evasion, but without them it's just that much harder.

What you are describing is a more diverse metagame. What you are implying here is that it will be harder to cover everything, which to me implies that better players will be more able to differentiate themselves from weaker players, by their ability to cover more with the same number of pokemon. That to me, is a more competitive metagame.

And if it is legalized, somebody will find some godsend set or strategy that will destroy everything. If it could be done with Wobb, I don't see why it couldn't be done with evasion.

This argument can be applied to anything. You are essentially saying "dont unban anything". You could even take it as far as to say "we should ban every pokemon now, because there could be a godsend set or strategy we just havent found yet they use". What we should do is unban DT, and when a godsend strategy presents itself, then we can ban it again.

Ok, end of that rant. I just don't like the idea of having to carry something else around (leaving me more vulnerable to everything else) in order to not get floored by evasion teams.

Ignoring evasion is actually not as bad of a strategy as you might think. You may lose to it it is true, but on the other hand, you are much more likely to lose to Dragon Dancers if you dont prepare for them..

Have a nice day.