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Glitched Weather in English Platinum [Part 2, Clearer Video] (Update March 18, 2009)
- Thread starter EeveeTrainer
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As much as I hate to admit it, I was wrong. To be 100% honest I didn't realize my own selfishness until after I talked to someone on AIM about it. I hate the glitch, I don't want to see it implemented, but I realize that it is a necessary evil. Once we figure out the mechanics of the glitch we can implement it. Not doing so would be going against our "code."
@ goodfella: It is in the game. It doesn't matter if it was unintended, or whether it hurts the metagame. If it gets fixed in the English release it will be banned not because it was clearly unintended, but because it will no longer be considered an ingame occurrence.
@ goodfella: It is in the game. It doesn't matter if it was unintended, or whether it hurts the metagame. If it gets fixed in the English release it will be banned not because it was clearly unintended, but because it will no longer be considered an ingame occurrence.
Seems like a silly formality; a technicality. Not to mention a waste of resources best spent elsewhere.
If Smogon's "code" demands it, I suppose there's nothing anyone can do. But while we're making Shoddy more like wi-fi, shouldn't implementing Fling/Recycle/Natural Gift and fixing Torment and Encore be at least as high on the list?
If Smogon's "code" demands it, I suppose there's nothing anyone can do. But while we're making Shoddy more like wi-fi, shouldn't implementing Fling/Recycle/Natural Gift and fixing Torment and Encore be at least as high on the list?
Such a strict "code" would also force a long and drawn-out testing of all "illegal moves" obtained through the Ditto and Mimic glitches (which I'm sure no one wants). If you ban them for any other reason than because they're broken (which you can't know without a test phase), then you're making an argument from authorial intent.
Since these moves are currently banned and no test phase has occurred, a de facto argument of authorial intent has already been made and adhered to in that particular case.
Even though the respective glitches were fixed in English D/P, you can't use that as an argument for banning the moves. Even though the glitch was fixed, pokemon from Japanese games can still be used on the English cart. So even if you're using the rules of an English cart, Obi's argument of "only ban things that aren't possible" holds no weight because there's nothing stopping you from trading over a Japanese pokemon.
And if you try to say that simply fixing the glitch in English versions of the game is enough to warrant banning the moves, then you're once again arguing authorial intent.
Since these moves are currently banned and no test phase has occurred, a de facto argument of authorial intent has already been made and adhered to in that particular case.
Even though the respective glitches were fixed in English D/P, you can't use that as an argument for banning the moves. Even though the glitch was fixed, pokemon from Japanese games can still be used on the English cart. So even if you're using the rules of an English cart, Obi's argument of "only ban things that aren't possible" holds no weight because there's nothing stopping you from trading over a Japanese pokemon.
And if you try to say that simply fixing the glitch in English versions of the game is enough to warrant banning the moves, then you're once again arguing authorial intent.
Well, Pokemon at absurdly high levels (like Lv. 237) were possible to be caught in RBY. Were they allowed in competitive battle? No.
In the GSC game, some Pokemon could, in theory, have every move in the game as their movepool. Whas this allowed in competitive battle? No.
I'm just saying this so that people stop falsely assuming that everything that can happen in game should be allowed competitively.
The point is that anything from the game that encourages competitive Pokemon should be allowed. Anything else shouldn't. Like I always do, I'll leave it to the players who actually play the games to decide whether this is something that is cool to have from a competitive standpoint or not.
In the GSC game, some Pokemon could, in theory, have every move in the game as their movepool. Whas this allowed in competitive battle? No.
I'm just saying this so that people stop falsely assuming that everything that can happen in game should be allowed competitively.
The point is that anything from the game that encourages competitive Pokemon should be allowed. Anything else shouldn't. Like I always do, I'll leave it to the players who actually play the games to decide whether this is something that is cool to have from a competitive standpoint or not.
This discussion is irrelevant until the glitch is fully understood, anyway. We can't implement this glitch unless we know what triggers it and what its effects are - and I'm betting 'what triggers it' has an incredibly complicated answer that won't simplify down to "1/16 of the time a fleeing pokemon is killed by Pursuit when sandstorm is in effect". We'll probably find out that implementing this glitch would require far, far too much effort relative to the actual gains in terms of accuracy of simulation, and by the time we figure that out the glitch will be fixed in the US release.
what happens if we use pursuit in hail?
I have found this in youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Nvg-m4fJzs
killer rain + killer sun + hail + SS
I have found this in youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Nvg-m4fJzs
killer rain + killer sun + hail + SS
jamespicone beat me to this point, but it's worth reiterating:
How do we implement this?
I've seen videos of this glitch occurring in several circumstances:
Also, we can ban whatever glitches we want, can't we? Last I checked, Belly Drum + Aqua Jet Azumarill is still theoretically possible, but we don't allow it anyway--and not because it's necessarily broken, if I understand correctly. The only issue is how you define a glitch. To me, based on my limited knowledge of how Pursuit and Sandstorm/Hail are coded in D/P, I cannot possibly explain this. I would need someone to explain to me how they are coded in Platinum (my programming knowledge is VERY limited T-T), but as of now I truly believe that they are glitched.
Besides, if RB Golbat's post means anything, good luck convincing Doug to implement it. :P
How do we implement this?
I've seen videos of this glitch occurring in several circumstances:
- Tyranitar KOs a ~50% health Luxray in Sandstorm (one of Syberia's videos, I believe)
- Scizor KOs a full health Starmie in Sandstorm (EeveeTrainer's latest video in the OP)
- Scizor KOs a ~25% health Gengar in Hail (video that M Dragon linked to--and even more messed up than the other two)
Also, we can ban whatever glitches we want, can't we? Last I checked, Belly Drum + Aqua Jet Azumarill is still theoretically possible, but we don't allow it anyway--and not because it's necessarily broken, if I understand correctly. The only issue is how you define a glitch. To me, based on my limited knowledge of how Pursuit and Sandstorm/Hail are coded in D/P, I cannot possibly explain this. I would need someone to explain to me how they are coded in Platinum (my programming knowledge is VERY limited T-T), but as of now I truly believe that they are glitched.
Besides, if RB Golbat's post means anything, good luck convincing Doug to implement it. :P
I think a nice definition of glitch is something - anything - in a game that was not intended to be there.
Edit: Not a solid definition. Imagine Gamefreak made a Pokémon in the Field egg group, who has two incompatible egg moves that together would be completely broken, but they completely forgot about Smeargle. That would be unintended but not necessarily a glitch. So a better definition would be:
Anything in a game that was not intended to be there, but because of a coding error, was included.
While I really don't like the fact that this glitch exists, we most not overlook the scenario the glitch occurs in. The glitch occurs in the middle of a battle. All the other glitches mentioned occur outside of battle, and using them has no direct effect on the outcome of the battle. The one other in battle glitch that I can think of is the U-Turn glitch. Since it was impossible to alter the battle environment to a point where that glitch couldn't happen, we included this glitch on shoddy. Unless the American version of platinum fixes it, can anyone give me a reason why we should ignore this glitch if we are trying to remain true to cartridge battles?
The fact that it's obviously a glitch which means that it will be removed when Nintendo discovers it, which means that it's not worth our time to discover the exact triggers for it when it will inevitably be removed anyway? And as has been pointed out by X-Act, there is precedent for ignoring such glitches.
As for U-turn, that is a different nature of glitch than the Acid Rain one. It's effects were clean-cut and were even questionably intentional due to the nature of the move (extremely unlikely, but it would have at least made a bit of sense). There's not really much doubt, however, that this Acid Rain glitch really is just a glitch and the cause of which will be much trickier to determine. Due to that, I don't really see the point in bothering with it, especially since we have precedent for not implementing glitches anyway.
And we aren't really being that true to cartridge battles anyway. There is no Sleep Clause in cartridge battles; only PBR has something resembling that. And we're also ignoring things like the Ditto-glich and had ignored the glitches to get Darkrai and Shaymin, just because of intent (and even now, most people aren't in favor of letting Arceus be used in Ubers just because of intent), so I don't really see why it should be different here.
As for U-turn, that is a different nature of glitch than the Acid Rain one. It's effects were clean-cut and were even questionably intentional due to the nature of the move (extremely unlikely, but it would have at least made a bit of sense). There's not really much doubt, however, that this Acid Rain glitch really is just a glitch and the cause of which will be much trickier to determine. Due to that, I don't really see the point in bothering with it, especially since we have precedent for not implementing glitches anyway.
And we aren't really being that true to cartridge battles anyway. There is no Sleep Clause in cartridge battles; only PBR has something resembling that. And we're also ignoring things like the Ditto-glich and had ignored the glitches to get Darkrai and Shaymin, just because of intent (and even now, most people aren't in favor of letting Arceus be used in Ubers just because of intent), so I don't really see why it should be different here.
Except, Like I said, those glitches all occurred outside of battle. Can you name a time that we ignored a glitch that happened during a battle?
Except, it wasn't intentional, because they fixed that in Platinum. We don't need to determine why the glitch happens. We just need to figure out how. And since it appears that (from every video that I've seen) that it occurs when there is a KO from pursuit is when the glitch happens.
Sleep clause is easy to enforce. Just don't use a sleep move when another one of their pokemon hasn't been put to sleep by your own move. And we allowed Darkrai and Shaymin before they were released because they could be gotten with the glitch. It is easy to be selective of glitches that occur outside of battle, tell me why we should be selective of in battle glitches, which we can not control.
As I said, which seems to be the difference in philosophy between us:
Our two outlooks are just pretty different from each other, and I don't think that either of us is going to really budge on our positions on them. However, there is precedent for not implementing glitches that have an effect on battle, and Doug seems pretty set on not wanting to implementing it, so I don't see much reason in ignoring that, trying to determine the cause anyway, and then pestering Doug to get him to implement it. It will be removed once Nintendo discovers it, and Doug doesn't want to implement it, so I don't see the point in ignoring that and bothering with it anyway, when it isn't going to be going anywhere.
You feel that even if it is obvious that it will most likely be removed, it should still be implemented while it still is in the latest copies of the game, because it's currently part of those games, whereas I feel that since it is inevitable that it will be removed once discovered, there is no point in implementing it, and the time used on testing the glitch to determine its cause is better used on something else as of that.Naxte said:
Our two outlooks are just pretty different from each other, and I don't think that either of us is going to really budge on our positions on them. However, there is precedent for not implementing glitches that have an effect on battle, and Doug seems pretty set on not wanting to implementing it, so I don't see much reason in ignoring that, trying to determine the cause anyway, and then pestering Doug to get him to implement it. It will be removed once Nintendo discovers it, and Doug doesn't want to implement it, so I don't see the point in ignoring that and bothering with it anyway, when it isn't going to be going anywhere.
I would just like to take a momentary break from this discussion to transcribe perhaps the greatest line I've heard from a Pokemon game in a while:
( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Nvg-m4fJzs )
That said, this latest video all but confirms that the glitch is not only unintended by Nintendo, but would also be a little bit ridiculous to implement. In Hail, all four weather effects hurt the Pokemon by way of its Ability (?)...
( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Nvg-m4fJzs )
That said, this latest video all but confirms that the glitch is not only unintended by Nintendo, but would also be a little bit ridiculous to implement. In Hail, all four weather effects hurt the Pokemon by way of its Ability (?)...
On the flipside of that, we decided to use the 99.6% accuracy of all 100% accuracy moves in RBY. I lost a match in a tournament on the final turn because my Surf missed. A glitch like that was by no means competitive but was implemented.
Anyway, I'm still not entirely sure if this can indeed be classified as a glitch. Nintendo obviously made a few changes in the mechanics (Technician causing 1/16 recoil, the accuracy of Hypnosis). Perhaps this activation of additional weather effects and their stacking is another something that they wanted to add. I posted this thread in the Showdown 2009 thread and hopefully the Japanese player who frequents it will have an answer on it soon.
I can't believe this is still be discussed I'm agreeing fully with X-Act, on the basis that no were are not playing as close to the cartidge as possible, implenting a glitch is absurd, and frankly Obi I'm suprised you seemed to be a reasonable poster, but you logic of implementing this on Shoddy is flawed.
Shoddy is a community made game, and in no way is this a catridge similar game. Say when the english version of platinum comes out there is some absurd glitch where Shadow Force hit Normal types, are you going to impliment on Shoddy simply because it's in the game?
If anything we should wait till March 22nd to decide, I'm sure Nintendo/Gamfreak has caught wind of this error and fixed it already.
Shoddy is a community made game, and in no way is this a catridge similar game. Say when the english version of platinum comes out there is some absurd glitch where Shadow Force hit Normal types, are you going to impliment on Shoddy simply because it's in the game?
If anything we should wait till March 22nd to decide, I'm sure Nintendo/Gamfreak has caught wind of this error and fixed it already.
Shoddy is meant to simulate Link Battles. We have not changed any mechanics of link battles, barring Sleep Clause and Freeze Clause. And in reality, enforcing Sleep Clause is easy to do. The only game mechanic we have changed is the freeze clause. Tell me how we can say we are implementing link battles if we remove this glitch?
The two aren't mutually exclusive. Our goal should be accurately simulating the game. Just because other bugs exist doesn't mean that this particular bug (and not having it on Shoddy is the bug I'm talking about here) should be ignored. We can put it off until we've fixed other glitches, but to say we aren't going to accurately simulate the game as a matter of policy is wrong.
We can ban any moves, Pokemon, items, or any combination thereof for any reason we want or no reason at all without violating this "strict code".
That's not my argument at all. I'm not against banning OHKO moves, or evasion, or Rayquaza and Kyogre, for instance, even though those are possible. What I"m saying is, you can only ban bannable things. Mechanics aren't bannable. If something cannot be banned on a cartridge / Stadium clone match, then we cannot ban it on a simulator for the game. If something can be banned on such a medium, then we have the option to ban it if we feel it warrants being banned.
The point is that all of those things are bannable. We can essentially say "If you use X, you lose the game automatically", which is the same as banning.
If Gamefreak came out and said "Oh hey guys, this whole time we meant for Unown to have base 150 all stats, learn all moves, and have the ability options Wonder Guard / Shadow Tag. And we also intend for it to be used in standard play.", would we follow that intent?
No, we would not. We would wait until they prove that this is their intent by putting it in the actual game. And then we still don't have to listen to the "we intend for it to be OU" part, because we control that.
Okay... Seeing that only makes things worse. I mean, wanting to keep true to the games is one thing, but this...? As shown, it makes low-leveled Endeavor+Magic Guard a very potent combo. And, more importantly, it reveals the Pokemon's abilities, which ruins some strategies (ex. What ability is that Machamp running? Is that Snorlax trying to be more bulky with Thick Fat or serve as a Poison absorber with Immunity? Does that Haryiyama have Guts or Thick Fat? ect). Really, it will result in a much less competetive and interesting metagame if implemented.
It's clearly a glitch, which means that Nintendo will remove it once they realize that it's there. Until then, I don't see why we should implement it, just because it's "there now", because it's clearly not supposed to be, will innevitably be removed, would just annoy the userbase and force us to redo any tests we do in the period that it takes Nintendo to remove it, and DJD has made it clear that he doesn't want to implement it anyway. The only gain we get by implementing it is being able to say that we're staying true to an early, glitched version of Platinum, which, IMO, is hardly enough of a reason to justifiy the cost; the glitch is cleary something that's an accident and isn't supposed to be there, so I don't see why we should have an obligation to be faithful to it.
Pursuit hitting faster U-turners for double power is clearly a glitch. It doesn't have increased power against Baton Pass.
Baton Pass passing Perish Count to Soundproof Pokemon must be wrong! What possible justification could Nintendo have for that?
You know, it just doesn't make sense for Substitute to block Lock-On. Why can't they target that Substitute? It must be a bug. And why don't Roar and Whirlwind only blow away the Substitute, rather than the Pokemon behind them?
Flash Fire Pokemon shouldn't have their ability nullified just because they're frozen, so we shouldn't implement that in Shoddybattle, either.
Why does Tyranitar run in terror from Teddiursa's Roar?
Shoal Salt claims to restore HP, but it does absolutely nothing. We should fix this.
I bet Nintendo will give Snorlax and Hariyama Slack Off in English Platinum. It was probably just an oversight on their part that they don't have it, so we should add those to Shoddybattle.
Fire Fang hitting through Wonder Guard has absolutely no justification to exist. It must be a bug, and we should remove this from Shoddybattle.
Maybe Shoddybattle should start making Pokemon faint from Destiny Bond, even if they use a multi-hit move to KO their target? I mean, sure, that's not what happens in-game, but it just makes sense.
Baton Pass passing Perish Count to Soundproof Pokemon must be wrong! What possible justification could Nintendo have for that?
You know, it just doesn't make sense for Substitute to block Lock-On. Why can't they target that Substitute? It must be a bug. And why don't Roar and Whirlwind only blow away the Substitute, rather than the Pokemon behind them?
Flash Fire Pokemon shouldn't have their ability nullified just because they're frozen, so we shouldn't implement that in Shoddybattle, either.
Why does Tyranitar run in terror from Teddiursa's Roar?
Shoal Salt claims to restore HP, but it does absolutely nothing. We should fix this.
I bet Nintendo will give Snorlax and Hariyama Slack Off in English Platinum. It was probably just an oversight on their part that they don't have it, so we should add those to Shoddybattle.
Fire Fang hitting through Wonder Guard has absolutely no justification to exist. It must be a bug, and we should remove this from Shoddybattle.
Maybe Shoddybattle should start making Pokemon faint from Destiny Bond, even if they use a multi-hit move to KO their target? I mean, sure, that's not what happens in-game, but it just makes sense.
Yeah... Cause I'm sure "Scizor is hurt by its Technician!," "Blissey is hurt by its Natural Cure!," and "Porygon-Z is hurt by its Download!" are things that Nintendo would clearly have intended (same with there being no hints about being able to have multiple weather effects triggered by auto-weather and Pursiut; in fact, the Official Nintendo Platinum strategy guide most likely shows that the status quo was intended to be maintained by weather, especially since there's no mention of such a change having occurred in the in-game descriptions of the moves). Yes, there are things that don't make sense in the game, like how Wailod's Body Slam should reallsticly be able to OHKO most things, but this isn't that. There's a difference between things not making sense (lol at Snorlax not learning Slack Off, while Infernape can use it), and a glitch. There's no way around it; this is a glitch, quite clearly.
Since it is a glitch, it will be removed by Nintendo once discovered. Implementing it means having a less enjoyable metagame and that whatever tests we do in the meantime will have to be redone once Nintendo notices it and fixes it. I don't see why being true to what is clearly a glitch, and not just a stupid decision, is worth that.
Since it is a glitch, it will be removed by Nintendo once discovered. Implementing it means having a less enjoyable metagame and that whatever tests we do in the meantime will have to be redone once Nintendo notices it and fixes it. I don't see why being true to what is clearly a glitch, and not just a stupid decision, is worth that.
my question for the hail version of this glitch...how to the weather based traits function under it? ie does a dry skin pokemon get healed by the rain part then get damaged by the sun? and how does swift swim and clorophyll pokemon act under this...and how does fire and water moves behave under this
You guys are completely missing the point.
It does not matter what Nintendo intended to do, or intends to do in the future. All that matters is what actually happens. If it's possible to figure out exactly under what circumstances this glitch happens, then it needs to be implimented on Shoddy. You can't just change game mechanics because you feel like it.
It does not matter what Nintendo intended to do, or intends to do in the future. All that matters is what actually happens. If it's possible to figure out exactly under what circumstances this glitch happens, then it needs to be implimented on Shoddy. You can't just change game mechanics because you feel like it.
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