np: UU - A New Beginning

[Griffin]

I've been using Sunny Day to some success too, and indeed, Exeeggutor is a beast. I run Solarbeam/Psychic/Explosion/Sleep Powder@Life Orb. It destroys anything weak to either of its STABs, 2HKOs pretty much everything else. Sleep powder is to put one thing to sleep (teams tend to have no more than one Pokémon to stop it). Explosion as a last option.

I'm running max speed at the moment, because that's required to outspeed Scafraptor, which was a terror for my team, effectively OHKO or 2HKOing my entire team.

I've been using Victreebel (Swords Dance/Sunny Day/Leaf Blade/Return @ Heat Rock) as a physical abuser but it isn't great. If it can, however, get both the SDs off, it can sweep entire teams.

 

[LonelyNess]

Ok, so we've all been throwing out a lot of random Pokemon with no cohesion for the last 29 pages, and I think it's about time we started to think of some real possible BL candidates and try and discuss them a bit.

Here's my current opinion on the tier. (Note that these Pokemon are not in any particular order.)

More Than Likely Need to be BL:

Abomasnow: If it didn't have Snow Warning, then I wouldn't be at all impressed with this guy, but the fact that it does is the one reason we should send this guy to BL. Being able to support Stallrein, as well as Substitute / Spikes Froslass @ Brightpowder for an entire game says gg to the majority of teams not dedicating a significant amount of their team to stopping it. Although my first sentence isn't to be misleading, it packs a huge punch with Wood Hammer / Blizzard, dual Base 120 STAB is nothing to scoff at, and with the correct EVs it can be incredibly bulky from the Special Side.

Spiritomb: Let's face it, with its defenses, resistances, status attacks, ability to stat up and sweep, this thing is probably THE biggest defensive threat to the tier. I equate it similarly to something like Lugia would be to the OU tier. It's not at all difficult to get 6 Calm Minds and completely destroy a team, and with the only real way to hit being hard, and from the Special side (considering you could very well be completely neutered by Will-O-Wisp) it's just too much for the tier.

Gallade: With the above gone, there is nothing stopping this at all. Ice Punch / Shadow Sneak / Close Combat is all you need coupled with a Swords Dance and you're golden. This, along with the Pokemon below is probably the #1 offensive threat.

Staraptor: Ok, this is why you need 2 Normal resists MINIMUM per team, as well as a Fighting resist who isn't neutral to Normal. This thing is single handedly destroying teams, and it doesn't even need to wait for the team surrounding it to help. Its own unique movepool allows it to take its own counters out all by itself. The only Pokemon I have seen counter this beast 100% is a HEAVILY defensive Luxray used by Eo Ut Mortus. Brave Bird / Close Combat / Return is all this guy needs and with U-turn to scout out your opponent's "counter" it's just a matter if when, not if, this Pokemon sweeps you.

Crobat: I know what you're thinking, "what? Crobat for BL?" but let me explain first. This Pokemon is the definitive lead. Its ability to shut down other leads with Taunt, as well as its ability to set up Weather for your team is absolutely broken. With such great weather abusers such as Typhlosion and Ludicolo running around in the tier, it's a wonder why this hasn't been mentioned before. I thought we determined with the Deoxys-S vote that fast, guaranteed set-up for no cost was broken, and this guy defines that for UU. Not to mention that with Brave Bird giving huge base power, you don't have to invest in Attack to have a usable attack. And his defenses are far from paper thin, only getting better because of Roost. I personally think this is one of the most harmful Pokemon in the metagame at the moment.

Possibly BL:


Shaymin: While it's true that Grass is a pretty bad STAB in OU, it's actually a really good one in BL. There are a ton of underused Bulky Waters and Grounds that are floating around, and not a lot of things to resist the type are hang at the UU level (as most Flying types and Steel types are either really good and therefore OU, or really bad and therefore NU). With Natural Cure to get rid of Status on leaving, it's also ridiculously long lasting as once you get into the danger zone health wise, you just Rest and switch out. This also allows Shaymin to run a Life Orb for the added power. With Earth Power / Air Slash to hit Steel / Fire / Grass types for Super Effective damage, this thing is a bit much for UU.

Typhlosion: People will think that I'm advocating Typhlosion's banning because of the Choice Scarf set, but that's entirely untrue. It's actually the Specs set that is the most broken. Base 100 Speed is a really good speed to hit in UU (just look at Staraptor), and that just so happens to be Typhlosions speed tier. With a Specs boosting its already impressive Special Attack stat, as well as Eruption's godly base power allow it to literally KO everything not named Regirock / Milotic / Slowking / Azumaril / Chansey (and actually chansey is 2HKOd some of the time with SR on the field.) Even things that resist Eruption are 2HKOd in the majority of cases (Hariyama and Slowbro come to mind). And if you're running Crobat, keeping Stealth Rock off the field long enough to bring in Typhlosion once is easy enough, but even if you're not using Eruption, Choice Specs Fire Blast still puts a dent in a LOT of things. And for those saying "it's a specs user, just beat it with prediction" ... it's not even using anything except for a Fire move. There's no prediction involved.

Raikou: It's no surprise that this is on the list, the only reason that I"m not certain that this is BL is because people seem to be so afraid of it that they're preparing for it in a lot of weird ways and so it's not performing as well as it could be. (I saw someone use a Gastrodon solely for Raikou, even though otherwise Gastrodon is horrible in the tier.) Its speed, coupled with its bulk allow it to get at least a single, if not two Calm Minds and from there, it's a simple sweep.

------------------------------------------

Other than these eight Pokemon, there is currently nothing in the tier that greatly sticks out as "hey, look at me I'm broken!!!"

Let's try and discuss these Pokemon, and maybe put some more on the list that I may have forgotten.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Crobat's the only one I'm on the fence about there, as outside of weather support it lends absolutely nothing to a team. Deoxys-E had Stealth Rock OR Spikes, as well as badass dual screens, Thunder Wave, Taunt, etc. Crobat literally has a support movepool of Whirlwind, Toxic (everything gets Toxic), Taunt, and Weather. It's arguably the best at setting up Sunny Day, but Sunny Day is a rather mediocre weather effect, and Electrode's highest speed in the tier makes it the best at Taunt + Rain Dance, even better than Crobat due to Explosion. STAB Thunder helps Electrode's case too, and it can outspeed Crobat and TWave it to pretty much permanently shut it down if need be.

Crobat is good, but not broken good. Nowhere near broken good.

 

[umbarsc]

The main reason I haven't had any trouble with those is because Scarf Staraptor is almost a 100% check to all of those except Rest/Talk CM Spiritomb (and even then Brave Bird will dent it). Of course, if Staraptor goes then that argument goes out the window.

With a Specs boosting its already impressive Special Attack stat, as well as Eruption's godly base power allow it to literally KO everything not named Regirock / Milotic / Slowking / Azumaril / Chansey (and actually chansey is 2HKOd some of the time with SR on the field.)

Saying that Chansey is 2HKOed some of the time confuses me. Are those Pokemon that avoid a OHKO or Pokemon that avoid a 2HKO? If it's a OHKO, I may be inclined to agree, but if you're saying those Pokemon are 3HKOed by Specs Eruption, then I'd be less inclined to agree. Being able to keep Stealth Rocks off the field is a rather large assumption too. (Not to mention that Flash Fire Pokemon can also absorb an Eruption, and faster Pokemon or Scarf Pokemon do exist). Specs Typhlosion may be hard to deal with, but bans shouldn't be used for things because you don't like dealing with it (of course, we did kind of set that precedent with the Garchomp ban).


For Crobat, comparing it to Deoxys-S is an interesting analogy, but the main differences are that Crobat's speed is good but not godly, so it can be outsped by leading Scarfers, and Deoxys-S had useful and perhaps broken support moves in dual screens and Stealth Rock, while Crobat only gets Weather moves. If that allows other broken weather Pokemon to sweep, I'd say it's the fault of the Pokemon themselves, because there are many different Pokemon that can set up Rain/Sun and banning Crobat won't solve the problem if they're truly broken.

 

[Lou Cypher]

I'd like to add one note to Ness's list for the POSSIBLE BL's (Although I would personally bump up Shaymin to definite BL - its bulk/power combo seems too much) which is Ambipom. It's not the Fake Out Technician - UTurn combo which lets it put dents in a lot of frail stuff for free that I'm worried about as Persian can pull it off too, but the fact that Ambipom packs Tauros-levelled punch to go with it, THAT is what startles me. I find that it alone makes several tricks useless, just by taking those cheap free hits. While Persian can effectively employ the same kind of strategy, Persian packs a lot less of a punch. And also, Persian doesn't have access to Double Hit to finish off frail stuff thats a bit higher in health.

 

[Gorgoroth]

I agree with LN's list is alot of ways except for Raikou who doesn't even seem overpowered in this tier and switch him with Ambipom.

 

[guoguo]

@LonelyNess
Spiritomb is not nearly as powerful as you make it to be. The various taunters currently in UU can shut down just about every single set Spiritomb carries. Even without a taunter, while countering both sets of Spiritomb with a single pokemon may be difficult, it is not unplausible nor unreasonable to have a generic attacker beat one build and a generic status absorber for the other. And this isn't even considering all the phyiscal flash fire users in UU which would love to eat a WoW and hit back with a powered up Flare Blitz. I would call it a possible candidate for BL but not a strong candidate.

As for Typhlosion, I would put it in the same boat as specs Blaziken or Magmortar. Although more prediction is needed, they both can 2HKO just about any defensive pokemon UU has to offer. Fire Blast simply destroys anything that doesn't resist it outright except for Chansey, which is taken down by Cross Chop/Superpower/Focus Blast, while Thunderbolt/Focus Blast/Hidden Power Electric can take care of anything that does resist them.

#Edit:
Ambipom is only so-so as a lead, it can stop a sweep, but is horribly walled by any defensive Steel/Rock type, which anyone should switch to if their lead is weak to Ambipom.

 

[Astra [old]]

I agree with Raikou being overpowered for this tier, and that people are trying to counter it such as using hp ground on a raikou just to counter other raikou, I mean what else is it good for? Steelix is the only thing that I can think of and they are rather rare and leaves you open to a host of other counters.

I don't find Ambipon to be that overwhelming maybe I just haven't seen anyone use it right, but for the most part it does very little

Abomasnow really, really needs to go probably more then anything else on that list

Staraptor can be deadly, same with Gallade especially if we remove their best counters.

 

[Vrolok]

Snover still has snow warning, so stop bitching about Hail teams. Abomasnow does nothing out of the ordinary besides provide hail, and his NFE version does the exact same thing. Do you want to ban him too? Weather is incredibly effective in nUU, so start adapting to it rather than pull out the ban hammer.

As of now I haven't seen anything overwhelming to the point of a ban in nUU. There will always be popular or effective pokemon per tier. That doesn't mean that the effective ones need a ban to be countered.

 

[Steinhauser]

I have not have a severe problem with ANY of those Pokémon, nor any inkling of overpoweredness. This may be due to my team, though I believe smart playing and a select few team-building concessions can allow any team to take care of all of them.

Almost all of them are revenge killed by Swellow if they are not scarfed. The ones that are often scarfed, Typhlosion and Staraptor, are easily walled. Scarf Typhlosion is paralyzed and stalled by Calm Clefable or walled by any bulky water (I use Calm Blastoise), while Scarf Staraptor is walled by anything tough, such as Torkoal. Of course the Specs and Band versions are killed by Swellow. With the nature of Bands, it severely hampers them to be SR weak as they are.

Abomasnow and hail in general has never bothered me. Clefable walls most hail team members and ruins Walrein with Encore. All hail teams are at least 2/3 fire weak and 2/3 SR weak. I can't remember the last time I lost to a hail team. I do not think Abomasnow is overpowered.

Spiritomb is annoying but manageable. Two Brave Birds will kill a Bold one, and it is always so eager to switch in on Swellow. It is also Encore, Taunt, and Roar succeptible. I don't know why the mono-attacker is so damn popular. I don't think it's ever gotten more than 3 Calm Minds on me.

The hardest to take down on that list is Crobat. Brave Bird/Roost/Taunt/filler is tough to take down and I usually end up killing it when it switches into status or a Stone Edge. Still, it can only pick two of being bulky, hard-hitting, or faster than base 125 pokes, and the one it lacks will be its eventual downfall. The worst bats I've faced have been weather leads. However, I don't think it is BL.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

It’s posts like Lonelyness’ that really get on my nerves. There’s nothing wrong with stating your case of course, just so long as your arguments can actually be backed up and are not completely baseless or just plain outright false.

Stuff like this:

Abomasnow: If it didn't have Snow Warning, then I wouldn't be at all impressed with this guy, but the fact that it does is the one reason we should send this guy to BL. Being able to support Stallrein, as well as Substitute / Spikes Froslass @ Brightpowder for an entire game says gg to the majority of teams not dedicating a significant amount of their team to stopping it. Although my first sentence isn't to be misleading, it packs a huge punch with Wood Hammer / Blizzard, dual Base 120 STAB is nothing to scoff at, and with the correct EVs it can be incredibly bulky from the Special Side.

What exactly do you define as “a significant amount of their team”? I mean I’ve been able to demolish Hail teams single-handedly with a Clefable and a Moltres, on two different teams. In fact they cover so much of a typical Hail team by themselves that I barely even need to consider the threat of Hail stall anywhere else. Except for possibly a spinner or a Poison type, but they are useful for so much more besides countering Hail. So forgive me if I haven’t had trouble with Hail teams due to the fact that (gasp!) I’ve actually prepared for them when building my teams. And since when is having to prepare for a threat overcentralizing?

Spiritomb: Let's face it, with its defenses, resistances, status attacks, ability to stat up and sweep, this thing is probably THE biggest defensive threat to the tier. I equate it similarly to something like Lugia would be to the OU tier. It's not at all difficult to get 6 Calm Minds and completely destroy a team, and with the only real way to hit being hard, and from the Special side (considering you could very well be completely neutered by Will-O-Wisp) it's just too much for the tier.

Ok, so you’ve mentioned stuff it can do. Doesn’t really tell me why it’s broken. It sure as hell can’t do all that stuff on the same set, and comparing it to Lugia is just laughable. How exactly? The only thing they have in common is Pressure. And don’t give me that crap about it being impossible to kill either, as that is just completely untrue.

Gallade: With the above gone, there is nothing stopping this at all. Ice Punch / Shadow Sneak / Close Combat is all you need coupled with a Swords Dance and you're golden. This, along with the Pokemon below is probably the #1 offensive threat.

Wait a minute? Did you just say “With the above gone…” and tried to get away with using it as an argument? First of all, Spiritomb is not going anywhere yet, nor is it guaranteed to be gone any time soon. But even if we assume that it was, how could you possible know that it would be unstoppable? You’re making it sound as if every team carries a Spiritomb to deal with it, which would also be false. I’ve used various Pokemon to beat Gallade; Arcanine and Moltres are two that I’ve used to great success. But you don’t even need a reliable counter to deal with it. At 80 base speed it is easily checked and revenge-killed by faster Pokemon like Staraptor, Crobat and various others. A powerful threat? Yes. Unstoppable? Absolutely NOT.

Staraptor: Ok, this is why you need 2 Normal resists MINIMUM per team, as well as a Fighting resist who isn't neutral to Normal. This thing is single handedly destroying teams, and it doesn't even need to wait for the team surrounding it to help. Its own unique movepool allows it to take its own counters out all by itself. The only Pokemon I have seen counter this beast 100% is a HEAVILY defensive Luxray used by Eo Ut Mortus. Brave Bird / Close Combat / Return is all this guy needs and with U-turn to scout out your opponent's "counter" it's just a matter if when, not if, this Pokemon sweeps you.

This argument is so bad I don’t even know where to start, it is just full of completely false and meaningless statements. No matter what you might think, you DON’T need two Normal resists, it DOESN’T take out its own counters (how does that even make sense?) and it is certainly NOT guaranteed to sweep a team. I’ve used various things to deal with it; I’ve managed to counter it with an Arcanine on one of my teams. On another I’ve used a combination of Spritomb and Raikou. Those are just a couple of examples among others that have worked for me. One thing it definitely can’t do is switch in and out freely. Something I can’t help but laugh at some people that try to use choiced Staraptor against me. It is so easily predicted, and with SR and Brave Bird recoil it has a very short lifespan.

I could go on and refute your entire post, but I don’t have the time right now. The main point I want to make is that people here seem to be looking for things to ban without adopting an open mind and considering the possibility that maybe, just maybe, nothing needs to be banned at all. My current opinion on the tier? I don’t see anything in need of a ban right now. About a week ago I was 50/50 on Shaymn, but have since changed my mind after seeing that most people have now found ways to comfortably prepare for it, myself included.

So in conclusion, I urge people to adopt the mindset that a Pokemon should not be banned unless it is absolutely necessary, and to take into account that it has only been 2 and a half weeks testing so far.

 

[User 12783]

I agree with Lemmiwinks MkII on this one, Staraptor is not broken in environment with Registeel and Regirock, Stealth Rock, and auto-weather. As well as various other things that can counter it, and also Spiritomb is an absolute counter, it can't do shit at all to Spiritomb. Spiritomb is need here for balance, LonelyNess, taking out Gallade and Staraptor while in the same way not being broken either, the most common set is debatable the ResTalk / CM / Dark Pulse set which Raikou can take out, as that most common set (debatably once again) is SubCM / T-Bolt / Shadow Ball. All the "broken" Pokemon you have called out, are not really broken, and without them, there wouldn't be balance as other threats will rise up once again. Take the Spiritomb as an example as previously mentioned, it provides balance by stopping Gallade and Staraptor right in their tracks, I have not found any Pokemon that is remotely broken, besides Shaymin, yet.

 

[Caelum]

So in conclusion, I urge people to adopt the mindset that a Pokemon should not be banned unless it is absolutely necessary, and to take into account that it has only been 2 and a half weeks testing so far

Lemmiwinks, I wouldn't flatter yourself. Your arguments aren't exactly impressive since your counter-points against LN were basically just stating the opposite without support or taking overspecialized situations (I use Clefable + Moltres to beat Abomasnow so it's not good etc) or your "support" was "ha, you are wrong that's not true hahaha". So I suggest not criticizing peoples arguing abilities and cut your condescension, it doesn't make you look smart, it makes you look quite the opposite.

Anyway. I obviously haven't made up my mine since it's still a bit early in the test, but I think we would be all lying if we didn't start to have some opinions.

My personal experience is that Gallade. I'm mostly concerned by paralysis + Gallade to cover it's Speed issues. Really, with paralysis support and Swords Dance it can be quite threatening. It essentially ruins stall but I'm more concerned that with basic paralysis support you have to go to fairly extreme lengths to handle Gallade. It doesn't help the really help that viable clerics can't even really consider switching into Gallade.

The only other two I'm really considering potentially broken are Raikou and Espeon (for the same reasons that I think they are difficult to counter without making your team less viable against other threats etc.).

Other than that, I've not seen the necessity of anything needing to be banned.

On the note of Crobat that, I personally disagreed with the deoxys-s vote (I voted OU) so that's probably why I don't agree with you LN. I think abomasnow has a sufficient number of checks and the support options it gives to other Pokemon aren't sufficient enough to consider Abomasnow for BL since it doesn't allow other Pokemon to set up excessively easy.

 

[blue_light]

Even if Registeel and Regirock are in the environment, Staraptor still pretty much blazes through them with CC, banded variants 2HKO all variants of Registeel and Regirock and pretty much any normal resists. Meanwhile Spiritombs can't take STABed Brave Birds. Not only that, but staraptors ability to come in and intimidate the foe and then u-turning out is really quite annoying.

For the people who are disregarding Abomasnow as the a threat, perhaps you are underestimating its value. Weather is indeed a very powerful tool in nUU, but Abomasnows ability coupled with his stats are what allow him to be so effective. It basically renders enemy weather useless. Oh your gonna use rain dance and then switch to your ludicolo? I'll just switch to abomasnow and null your weather and eat your surfs all day. Meanwhile banning abomasnow, still allows snover to be used. Unlike his evolved counterpart, snover basically starts hail teams with 5 pokes instead of 6. Meaning in order for a hail team to beat weather teams, it must maintain the health on its snover, which is rather difficult. People commenting about how hail teams are weak to fire or rocks, yes they are weak to fighting and fire types, but last time I checked they also were able to have 6 pokemon on a team not 6 ice types. People saying "I've never lost to a hail team, abomasnow sucks" just because you've never lost to a hail team, doesn't mean other people haven't had troubles, also its rather hard to believe that you've never lost to a hail team considering many of the top players use hail teams.

Also regarding what Sikh Assassin said about typical sets, I believe the typical set for Raikou is cm/sub/tbolt/hidden power. Hidden powers usually vary on the user ranging from ice to fire.

 

[Angel Diva]

I don't see why people use HP Ground on a 2-attack Raikou. Just to counter other Raikous? Does that Raikou like getting walled by Grass Pokemon?

Spiritomb is easily dealed with. Taunt it, and without boosts, it won't be able to hurt much, while you yourself set up all over it.

Staraptor is a bit of a problem for me, but Stealth Rock really messes it up. Not to mention that without STAB on CC, it won't even hurt steels much. Maybe Staraptor could be moved. You just need prediction to handle it.

Typhlosion isn't that difficult to deal with for me. Each time there's a layer of entry hazards down his Eruption gets weaker. What is Typlosion going to do to Flash Fire Pokemon like Ninetales, who btw, is also pretty damned common, at least for me.

Gallade is just too easily revenge killed, even if you don't have any ghosts on your team.

 

[Chou Toshio]

In my opinion, Raikou is the only pokemon that really stands out as MAYBE too much. MAYBE

The calm mind set pretty much ends games. It's like 2 games are going on at the same time.

Instead of: "I need to beat the enemy's pokemon"

It's become a game of: "I need to beat the enemy's pokemon while never giving Raikou a free turn to set up."

I mean, sure there are pokemon who can stop raikou in its tracks (Steelix and Registeel being most notable from what I've seen). But the fact is that these pokes can go down (especially as they let something set up/get trapped while putting up rocks/t-wave), and if they do, Raikou needs only 1 turn to set up to end the whole game.

On the other hand, until it starts to set up, it's really not that intimidating (aside from the fact that it's fast, and either very powerful or very bulky). I like having it around because it makes a sweeper team possible without steelix/registeel/regirock to take on CB brave birds.

I'm pretty much exactly on the fence about raikou. Everything else . . . not really. The game is startlingly balanced so far. There's like 20 different strategies that, if they get pulled off, end the game in a land slide-- but to me that just makes it very different from OU and very interesting. Pokemon-wise, you see a lot of the same, but strategy-wise, it's very diversified.

Gallade and Starapter are strong, sure, but they are far from too much to handle imo . . . they are just not tough enough and can be taken down by strong hits from the many sweepers who out-speed them.

@Shaymin-- Roserade and Venusaur, who are everywhere, say this thing is not that big a deal. Not saying that we want every team to be running roserade/venusaur/shaymin . . .

 

[Steinhauser]

Thinking about it, I like hail teams, because they balance out the other weather teams.

In the old UU, as well as OU, Rain was/is the dominant weather theme. Between Rain and Sun, Rain had obvious advantages, including Water easily trumping Fire and Grass as a defensive type, Swift Swimmers getting a boost to STAB attacks unlike Chlorophyllers, and, in the case of OU, Tyranitar coming in on Solarbeam or any Fire attack with ease.

Now that Hail is a major factor, Sunny Day gets a lot more love. While Rain retains most of its advantages against average teams, Abomasnow trumps most Rain-based strategies. Sunny day teams, however, have no shortage of Fire attacks with which to assault Abomasnow and its ilk, so it could be said Sunny Day teams trump Hail teams.

Thus there is a crucial balance restored, and rain no longer dominates the weather scene.

 

[Scarlet Spyder]

What is the best Rapid Spinner in the new UU? I was thinking of using a Foresight Hitmontop but Torkoal seems like a decent choice, too.

 

[Vrolok]

Has anyone considered Bold Restalk Rotom as a Staraptor counter?

 

[Chou Toshio]

rotom's typing does make it ideal for starapter countering, with w-o-w as well. The regular rotom though is really lacking in its defensive stats . . .

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Bold Rotom gets 2KOed by CB Brave Bird, so that's out of the question.

 

[Erazor]

Pairing Staraptor with Wish support is scary. Switch in, spam Brave Bird, get out of there once the counter shows up, and later Wish, then bring out that beast again. It even helps negate SR damage.

Rotom and max/max+ Luxray may be the only good Staraptor counters, but that's why there are 5 other team slots to beat down the counters.
edit: forget Rotom, SDS makes a good point.

About Gallade, its speed is a real letdown. If it were fast, then it would be obviously BL, but 80 speed is a bit poor. And if you slap a scarf onto it, it loses out on the power of Swords Dance which is what people are scared of, right?

Spiritomb isn't hard to beat. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, Choice Band Staraptor hits it like a truck. And actually, you can hit the Calm Mind versions hard with special attacks before they get to set up, since they are EVed to take physical hits with the assumption that they're going to get off a few Calm minds.

I thought that Raikou was broken but I am having second thoughts about that now... it is countered by Registeel, Steelix, even Shaymin counters the sets that "run HP Ground for other Raikou".

 

[Stagnant]

I'll run off LN's list hereand perhaps post my own later.

Abombasnow: Annoying for sure but can be dealt with. Clefable as already mentioned works well. As she can almost single handily take down Hail teams. Hard to argue against his movement to BL cause I dislike hail teams but I do not think his Auto-Hail is that threatening. Also, does this mean Snover would be removed as well? Hippotos?

Spiritomb: Spiritomb can be dealth with Forsieght Hitmontop (who makes for a great spinner). Also most choiced Item pokes are a threat to it. Just have to work around him thats all.

Gallade: Hits like a truck and lately I've been having trouble dealing with him. His typing is a pain as well. I don't know he just seems like a effective late game sweeper thats about it.

Staraptor: Hits like a truck yata yata. But can be worn down over time.

Crobat: Fast taunt is not BL material. NP set is far frm dangerous. Brave Bat set is nice but not that spectaculatar.

Raikou: Good sweeper but can be dealth with through Gastrodon, Regice, and Lanturn ++++.

Shaymin: Wrecks teams unprepared for her but she also has some good checks.

Thyplosion: Specs set is dangerous but also can easily be turned into settup fodder for flash fire pokemon.

I feel like im just stating the obvoius... But one thing I did notice that each can chech each other in some way (for the most part). And that if these were to be removed I would quit UU because of the stall teams running rampant. How so? Miltotic and Slowbro.

 

[Erazor]

Has anyone else, apart from me, been using Sharpedo? The mixed set in the analysis is really good, it has single-handedly won games for me. I'm thinking of changing waterfall for Aqua Jet though, to make up for that 95 speed.

 

[Kay [Old]]

I personally think that subcm Mismagius is more dangerous than subcm Raikou, as the former boasts even better type coverage than Boltbeam and has a fairly useful immunity. I just use EQ Steel to deal with Raikou.
And really, Shaymin is the only thing I might consider too strong for this tier, as it has decent speed and sp. atk, that annoying natural cure/rest combo (though this isn't too bad as it gives you one free turn to do whatever you want), and not too bad defenses. And that's a maybe. Gallade is just too slow and can be revenge-killed way too easily, Staraptor has the SR problem (and I think that using a Choice Pokemon that is weak to the ever-common SR makes no sense, as Choice Pokemon should be able to switch in and out repeatedly, which you can't do with 25% of your health being stripped off every time), Raikou is dangerous but is dealt with easily.