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np: UU - A New Beginning

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Staraptor is a huge threat, but maybe because I'm a fool who doesn't pack any Steels or Rocks whatsoever. Though in my defense, none are suitable for my team.

I can deal with Spiritomb and Staraptor one-on-one, but not both of them together. If I don't status at the right time, I end up capitulating...

Still played a few more matches, and it's a toss-up between heavy offense and stall.
 
Caelum said:
There has been a lot of hype around Staraptor
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Staraptor is just fine in UU. It is one of the best revenge killers in UU. With Intimidate it is really good paired with strong STAB moves. Brave Bird will always 2HKO Spiritomb which is Staraptor's favorite switch in. It's not too over hyped, it's just in the middle. The one perfect counter to Staraptor would be a sturdy steel type like Registeel or Luxray with Intimidate like someone mentioned.
 
Allen Walker said:
Staraptor is just fine in UU. It is one of the best revenge killers in UU. With Intimidate it is really good paired with strong STAB moves. Brave Bird will always 2HKO Spiritomb which is Staraptor's favorite switch in. It's not too over hyped, it's just in the middle. The one perfect counter to Staraptor would be a sturdy steel type like Registeel or Luxray with Intimidate like someone mentioned.
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Registeel would be good, except for the fact that much of the time, they pack Special Defense EVs for Raikou/Shaymin and you cannot have two of them, because of species clause. (Correct me if I'm wrong)
 
I don't know why this topic has turned into a hail discussion, but I'll share my thoughts anyway...

Steinhauser said:
Agreed. Hail is not infallibe. It's not even unreasonably hard to prepare for. Just do one or two of the following:

- Use Clefable. For all you people who say hail teams are hard to beat, clefable is a great answer.
- Use Stealth Rock. 2/3 of every Hail team are SR weak. I have to disagree here, just having SR on the field does not put you at an advantage as they can carry a spinner (but if you have a ghost to block it then I guess I can agree with you)
- Use hard-hitting Fire, Rock and Fighting moves. Most hail teams carry a resist to these types.
- Use Encore, Taunt, and phazers. Encore: yes. Taunt: only works against Stallrein Phazers: Not everything on hail needs to set up, so yeah..
- Carry a spinner or grounded Poison type. What if they have a ghost? I use a hail team and I hardly ever get Toxic Spikes set up, so they aren't crucial to winning matches.
- Kill their Abomasnow and set up your own weather. Easier said then done.

Hail strikes me as no more and no less than a balanced, viable, competetive tactic that adds flavour and variety to the metagame. Without it, Rain Dance teams would overrun new UU just like they did in old UU.
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The best answer to hail teams is encore clefable, so try it out.

Also back on topic my list of suspects would be:
  • Gallade Hardly anthing can safely switch in
  • Staraptor Assuming you use the right move, the Choice Banded version has two counters: Rotom and Luxray
  • Shaymin Chansey doesn't even beat this due to subseeding, recovery moves (synthesis and rest) potential seed flare drops, not to mention seed flare has high base power anyway. To top it off it has the same defenses as celebi and Sole Grass is arguably better than Psychic / Grass
  • Abomasnow (not just for auto hail, it can also break down many walls)
 
Steinhauser said:
Agreed. Hail is not infallibe. It's not even unreasonably hard to prepare for. Just do one or two of the following:

- Use Clefable. (Hariyama)
- Use Stealth Rock. 2/3 of every Hail team are SR weak. So what?
- Use hard-hitting Fire, Rock and Fighting moves. (Hariyama)
- Use Encore, Taunt, and phazers. (Hariyama)
- Carry a spinner or grounded Poison type. Once again, so what?
- Kill their Abomasnow and set up your own weather. Pretty much never going to happen against a good player.

Hail strikes me as no more and no less than a balanced, viable, competetive tactic that adds flavour and variety to the metagame. Without it, Rain Dance teams would overrun new UU just like they did in old UU.
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Hail is ridiculous. I usually don't even come close to getting Toxic Spikes up for my team, and I still easily stall the living hell out of most teams I come across. I've beaten teams with Encore Clefable, teams with weather, teams with heavy stat uppers, and these are the "counters" to Hail Stall? Please.
 
Lol.. the outcome would of remained the same ^_~

Sleep Powder works just fine for me...

Edit:


Yup, I to have yet to find a way to deal with Hail teams. I'm going to experiment with Hariyama and see how he does. I think he will be best answer to Hail teams.
 
Ok. The only thing that I have a problem with in New UU is Abomasnow. I just feel that it is too much for the current tier.

My main irk with Abomasnow is that it fits perfectly with the "Support" definition of Uber (although in this case it would be applied to UU->BL).

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.

Abomasnow makes it way too easy for Walrein to outstall an entire team or for Froslass to set up spikes. Yes, you can shout about how all teams could carry Toxic Spikes to prevent stall, but Toxic Spikes are extremely easy to remove from the field simply by sending out one of the common grounded Poison-types in UU. With my current team I've experienced an extremely high win rating, yet the one thing that I have noticed is that I "always" lose to Hail Stall. Whenever I ask "what can I do to prevent being outstalled by Walrein" the only answer I get is "use Clefable". I don't think that a person should have to use one single Pokemon in order to counter a certain strategy. I have heard a lot of complaints about hail from various sources, so I thought that I would make my opinion known.

No, I'm not suggesting ban Walrein or anything of the such, without everlasting Hail, it can't take advantage of its Ice Body ability and is no where near broken.
 
If Autohail is truly the only complaint of Abomasnow, what will happen to Snover? I think that carrying the weight of an NFE whose only purpose is autoweather is penalty enough, no?
 
I have had no trouble with Abomasnow. Or hail teams. I don't see the issue. Hell, I run Shedinja of all things and I have had no problem with them. Though they were one of the things I prepared for.

panamaxis, add Spiritomb to that list, it should have been called Stallking :(
 
Mhmm.. First off, no one should ever look at one Pokemon and say your my counter for Rain Dance teams, your my counter for Stall teams, ect ect... Point being Clefable is usefull against hail teams due to common Hail teams natures. I think that because Clefable is widely known to be able to work around hail teams no other pokemon is givin a thought.

How bout Golduck? Not only does he stop hail but he also negates all over weather effects. He is resistant to Blizzard and has Good Move Coverage.

Or how about...

Hariyama. Hariyama with Thick Fat a healthy does of Hp and SpDef investment and you have a Pokemon ready to tear down hail stallers. Force Palm Pay Back rest sleep talk would everything hard. He he could even use guts and still probably be fine.

or...

Entei. Holy Crap is this thing ever Bulky. Calm Mind up and annilate everything.


I think that the Hail teams are being blown out of proportion due to people unwilling to step out of the .. (lack of better words) social norm.


Also I would like to note I HATE Hail teams and I HATE Walrein. I hate stall teams in general..
 
I use just a regular defensive Entei. Yes, I agree that it slices through Hail teams. :D And a shitload of other things. I'm now convinced that everyone up to this point has been using it incorrectly.
 
100kvolts, have you used Entei? I lol at your statement

You could say the same about Shedinja, but no one's laughing when they think they can CM a Raikou to +6 or bring out a CB Azumarill late game and have it walled completely in the end. Yes, both have happened.
 
That's evidence that you've never used it, and therefore are making ignorant statements about Pokemon you've never used. All it requires is a Rapid Spinner, which teams run msot of the time anyways.

I use it myself and can tell anyone that it's not true. I saved several of my logs and can prove it. :] Your "knowledge", on the other hand, relies on false logic.
 
Ah, its good to see im not the only one :D.(Thanks SDS).

It seems that in the Tour, people have made teams that just counter hail teams. I was actually, REALLY disappointed in it(Nothing against the Battlers). I dont think there were fair matchups half the time, and Hail Stall beat everything without Clefable. Most of the matches were really one sided as well. As well, there were barely any people from the Leaderboard playing, because it was near impossible to get a spot without an amazing connection.

Also, people should seriously try to use Snover on their hail teams, just to test it out, and see if(as i expect) Hail teams will still be rediculous.

Edit: Stop argueing about a Gimmick Pokemon. Entei and Golduck arent bad.
 
Golduck may not be bad, but how on earth will he defeat any Hail team which always carry both Abomasnow AND Walrein?

I also agree that Abomasnow is too much. It was funny because I battled some guy using Rain Dance Clefable and Toxicroak (to eat TS) and even then I outstalled him twice, without any entry hazard. You don't even have to predict, just setup your shit and send Walrein/Aboma in to Hail Stall/SubSeed.

edit: I also can't really see Shedinja being useful with SR + Spiritomb everywhere and Hail teams =\
 
100kvolts said:
I will admit that I was wrong about Entei. I never did use him. Golduck was horrible in old UU when I used him. I don't see how he could be any better in a tier full of suspects.
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That mentality doesn't really work. For example, Luxray is the best Staraptor counter now, and it's not too shabby against Azumarill, Feraligatr, Honchkrow, and a bunch of other things.

I personally find Abomasnow hard to counter because of a. its diversity - SD and SubSeed counters are usually polar opposites, and the ones that counter both are usually weak to entry hazards (think Arcanine, Entei, Moltres.)
 
Seven Deadly Sins said:
Agreed. Hail is not infallibe. It's not even unreasonably hard to prepare for. Just do one or two of the following:

- Use Clefable. (Hariyama)

So Clefable switches out, and comes back in later taking no entry damage. Meanwhile Hariyama switches out of his counter and the Ice type that comes in takes 25% damage from SR.

- Use Stealth Rock. 2/3 of every Hail team are SR weak. So what?

So, that's a big deal for a hail stall team. Any kind of stall team is going to need to switch a lot, and 25% per switch hurts.

- Use hard-hitting Fire, Rock and Fighting moves. (Hariyama)

Hariyama will get taken out by something else. Just like Clefable isn't the end-all of hail teams, Hariyama provides nice resists but doesn't make hail teamsunstoppable.

- Use Encore, Taunt, and phazers. (Hariyama)

Hariyama isn't stopping these moves. It can switch in, but the moves were included to force switches, which probably means another Ice type is taking 25% damage at some point.

- Carry a spinner or grounded Poison type. Once again, so what?

So, without SR, spikes and (less common now) Tspikes, hail stall has nothing to punish the switches it can cause (except 6% per turn, which isn't spectacular). This leaves the team open to taking big hits from any offensive poke that switches in on resists unpunished.

- Kill their Abomasnow and set up your own weather. Pretty much never going to happen against a good player.

Debateable. On the flip side, I could argue a good player could indeed pull it off against a hail team.
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I can tell my position against Abomasnow's banishment is not the popular one, and by all means, if the majority of the community thinks it's broken then maybe it is broken. However, I don't think all the Hail-countering options have been exhausted yet, and a lot more testing needs to be done before I, for one, am convinced.
 
Clefable can be very annoying to hail stall teams, although he can also be set up fodder for your entry hazards. After that, all you have to do is force him out and his team will get hurt. I've won a lot of matches on my hail teams by repeatedly phazing Clefables. Moltres can be annoying too, since hail teams usually don't start with a stealth rocker, and the team's fire resist probably isn't its stealth rocker. This means he cause a lot of damage early game with strong fire attacks

Gallade can cause a lot of problems, but then he does that to most teams.

Golduck may not get hurt by hail, but he isn't beating Abomasnow any time soon. Personally I've never had even a bit of trouble with him. If he tries to break stallrein he'll get toxic'ed or roar'ed.
 
Scoopapa said:
Clefable can be very annoying to hail stall teams, although he can also be set up fodder for your entry hazards. After that, all you have to do is force him out and his team will get hurt. I've won a lot of matches on my hail teams by repeatedly phazing Clefables. Moltres can be annoying too, since hail teams usually don't start with a stealth rocker, and the team's fire resist probably isn't its stealth rocker. This means he cause a lot of damage early game with strong fire attacks

Gallade can cause a lot of problems, but then he does that to most teams.

Golduck may not get hurt by hail, but he isn't beating Abomasnow any time soon. Personally I've never had even a bit of trouble with him. If he tries to break stallrein he'll get toxic'ed or roar'ed.
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Food for thought:

Modest 252 SA Golduck Focus Blast on Modest 252 HP Abomasnow: 103-122%

You could run:

~Substitute
~Calm Mind
~Surf
~Focus Blast

Worst case scenario here is Toxic Walrein. You should be able to simply switch around on the rest.

As far as stopping Hail: Sandstorm Propopass stops everything but Surfing Walreins dead in their tracks.

Probopass @ Leftovers
252 HP/96 Atk/160 SDef
Sassy (+SDef, -Speed)
~Iron Head
~Sandstorm
~Taunt
~Thunderbolt

This does a number on non-Surf Stalreins, in addition to stopping most CMers. HP Fighting just isn't that strong. Thunderbolt can break Walrein's Sub, Iron Head is SE on Abomasnow. Guaranteed to survive two Max SA Modest Abomasnow Grass Knots outside of Sandstorm.
 
I know that Deck Knight is known for his wacky and brilliant sets, (I don't want to come off as too harsh or blunt) but I really need to ask, what is that Probopass is going to do non-hail teams? Raikou can easily come in on either of its attacks get up a CM and get about a 3hko with Tbolt, even worse if it's packing hp ground. Steelix, Registeel, Regirock, and tons of sweepers can come in on that set, and set up. To be honest Probopass is a horrible pokemon, with all these fighters walking around, your proposed set is virtually worthless against the standard non-hail team. The fact that you even proposed that set or considered that set for competitive play is a clear cut sign that Hail is over-centralizing the metagame.
 
demon238 said:
I know that Deck Knight is known for his wacky and brilliant sets, (I don't want to come off as too harsh or blunt) but I really need to ask, what is that Probopass is going to do non-hail teams? Raikou can easily come in on either of its attacks get up a CM and get about a 3hko with Tbolt, even worse if it's packing hp ground. Steelix, Registeel, Regirock, and tons of sweepers can come in on that set, and set up. To be honest Probopass is a horrible pokemon, with all these fighters walking around, your proposed set is virtually worthless against the standard non-hail team. The fact that you even proposed that set or considered that set for competitive play is a clear cut sign that Hail is over-centralizing the metagame.
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I could not have said that better myself. GJ.
 
Why is Probopass using his pathetic attack stat? Isn't Flash CAnnon the better option anyway? Or use Power Gem since Rock STAB is better than Steel STAB anytime?

Edit: I saw a Hitmontop set with Foresight some posts back. It had Close Combat. I'd like to ask: Why use Close Combat? Sure it's powerful, but it's not good for Hitmontop to lower his defenses when playing defensively. I'd be using Revenge or Triple Kick instead.
 
I use a sunny day houndoom

Houndoom @ lum

Sunny day
Solar beam
dark pulse
Fire blast

It rips through hail teams once I get it in sunny day to get rid of the hail. Then proceed to use the best attack. If you get flash fired fire blast 2hkos almost everything I have come across
 
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