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np: UU - A New Beginning
- Thread starter RBG
- Start date
- Status
One thing I agree with is that the last thing we want is for UU to turn into a stagnant circle-jerk of stall again like it was before the un-banning, where we had just added more and more walls without any capable offensive pokemon. Banning the good sweepers is a temptation, but I have to say that UU has great diversity of strategy in support tactics, and cannot to be said to be just a sweeper-fest. I'd say neo-uu is less muscle-bound-offensive than OU.
i've been using him with mostly success on wi-fi as a part of my Rain Dance team.
pass him a couple Bulk-Ups from Floatzel, and he's a monster.
i use Aqua Jet/Ice Fang/Crunch/EQ on him w/ Life Orb.
the only real challenge is getting him in safely, as he's quite frail.
Just thought I'd throw a little input in on the potential BL's. The biggest problem I'm seeing here is that removing one or two of these guys will drastically affect the performance of other pokemon. If Staraptor is gone, Gallade and other fighting types become a lot more threatening. I don't know if the answer is to ban all these at once or ban them in stages. I don't have a solution for this yet, but it needs discussion.
The other thing I wanted to address is Crobat, it does get a "free setup", but so does Electrode, who also has Thunder Wave in it's support options.
Rain Dance/Taunt/Explode/Thunder on Electrode is arguably better then Rain Dance/Taunt/Brave Bird/Roost Crobat. Regardless of eithers effectiveness, I think the "free setup" concept isn't enough to send something to BL.
The other thing I wanted to address is Crobat, it does get a "free setup", but so does Electrode, who also has Thunder Wave in it's support options.
Rain Dance/Taunt/Explode/Thunder on Electrode is arguably better then Rain Dance/Taunt/Brave Bird/Roost Crobat. Regardless of eithers effectiveness, I think the "free setup" concept isn't enough to send something to BL.
Beh, overall I just don't see very strong arguments for any of these things being banned. Maybe we need to just wait it out. I'm sure someone will find the "Yache-Chomp" of UU if we wait long enough. If not, then we can just leave it as be . . .
edit: btw, taunt crobat is screwed by trick-leads.
edit: btw, taunt crobat is screwed by trick-leads.
I feel like ranting about hail.
Firstly, UU pokemon are not put in BL, because they are not as strong for any number of reasons. Whether it be typing, Stats, movepool or just completely outclassed. Hail and Auto-Weather in general make these pokemon here because of whatever reason into pokemon you could see at the OU level(Uber in some cases). Pokemon who use a 95 BP Stab Attack with their decent Satk, turn into monsters with changing this into an 120 BP stab attack, and +6% damage from hail. That is rediculous already, and thats the most sane thing about hail teams.
The next beyond rediculous thing about hail teams, is snow cloak. WHY IS THIS ALLOWED? If this is allowed, you should at least allow double team, if you are going to make the game so hugely based on a rediculously overpowered luck based Stat which is Evasion, this is AUTO evasion. Especially consider the Rock moves, which are honestly the only safe move to use on a Hail Team. The only rock move that is used (mostly), is Stone Edge. Now with a move with 80% accuracy, already missing enough, what does this 20% extra miss do? It makes Glaceon, and Froslass unkillable is what it does. They do their jobs that an OU monster couldnt even do. You cant even Phaze these pokemon, because you are getting hit by an 100% Accuarate 120 STAB attack, with great coverage that you can not immune out of.
This brings me to, a good player with a hail team, should NEVER lose. Even a terrible player who knows what to do should never lose. The only thing they have to do is send abomosnow out as lead, and SPAM protect on everthing, not having to predict vs CBers which are the major threat otherwise, and loling as LO users lose 16% per turn. It also stops SubCM'ers, because they get no leftovers. Stone Edges can pretty much be absorbed by Froslass/Glaceon. Speaking of which, its WAY to easy to lay spikes.
The next, and definately worst thing about hail teams, is....yes, you guessed it. WALREIN IS FAT. If you have to switch out against Walrein, you CANT kill it. You cant ever kill this thing, unless your opponent plays bad. Nothing can do enough damage to it, it heals as much as leech seed, but with NO immunities and it doesnt have to waste a turn casting the spell. Sub+protect, and it can not die. Taunt doesnt even work well enough, it can just Protect, then switch out to their other pokemon. Walrein DEFINATELY needs to be banned if people are too ignorant to vote out Abomasnow.
Thats probably all for now.
Firstly, UU pokemon are not put in BL, because they are not as strong for any number of reasons. Whether it be typing, Stats, movepool or just completely outclassed. Hail and Auto-Weather in general make these pokemon here because of whatever reason into pokemon you could see at the OU level(Uber in some cases). Pokemon who use a 95 BP Stab Attack with their decent Satk, turn into monsters with changing this into an 120 BP stab attack, and +6% damage from hail. That is rediculous already, and thats the most sane thing about hail teams.
The next beyond rediculous thing about hail teams, is snow cloak. WHY IS THIS ALLOWED? If this is allowed, you should at least allow double team, if you are going to make the game so hugely based on a rediculously overpowered luck based Stat which is Evasion, this is AUTO evasion. Especially consider the Rock moves, which are honestly the only safe move to use on a Hail Team. The only rock move that is used (mostly), is Stone Edge. Now with a move with 80% accuracy, already missing enough, what does this 20% extra miss do? It makes Glaceon, and Froslass unkillable is what it does. They do their jobs that an OU monster couldnt even do. You cant even Phaze these pokemon, because you are getting hit by an 100% Accuarate 120 STAB attack, with great coverage that you can not immune out of.
This brings me to, a good player with a hail team, should NEVER lose. Even a terrible player who knows what to do should never lose. The only thing they have to do is send abomosnow out as lead, and SPAM protect on everthing, not having to predict vs CBers which are the major threat otherwise, and loling as LO users lose 16% per turn. It also stops SubCM'ers, because they get no leftovers. Stone Edges can pretty much be absorbed by Froslass/Glaceon. Speaking of which, its WAY to easy to lay spikes.
The next, and definately worst thing about hail teams, is....yes, you guessed it. WALREIN IS FAT. If you have to switch out against Walrein, you CANT kill it. You cant ever kill this thing, unless your opponent plays bad. Nothing can do enough damage to it, it heals as much as leech seed, but with NO immunities and it doesnt have to waste a turn casting the spell. Sub+protect, and it can not die. Taunt doesnt even work well enough, it can just Protect, then switch out to their other pokemon. Walrein DEFINATELY needs to be banned if people are too ignorant to vote out Abomasnow.
Thats probably all for now.
At least Crobat can last till mid-late game and damage stuff, unlike Electrode.
Ok, after looking through the thread, I feel that the pokemon that most people want to be banned are, in no particular order:
(note: this is not my BL list, but just a summary of what others have posted)
Gallade
Spiritomb
Staraptor
Raikou
Shaymin
Abomasnow
Typhlosion
Arguments can be made for each one of the above, either for or against banning. I will try to list out the arguments, please correct me if there are errors:
Gallade
68/125/65/65/115/80
For: Swords dance set too powerful for UU, decently bulky on the special side, possibly broken with paralysis support, good typing, not many safe switch-ins, resistant to Stealth Rock.
Against: Mediocre speed, prone to physical hits.
Spiritomb:
50/92/108/92/108/35
For: Defences are great, stalls out a lot, CM variants a major pain to take down, decent attacking stats.
Against: While it takes hits effectively, it only focuses on one end of the defensive spectrum, making the other one easy to exploit. Cannot repeatedly stand up to hard hitters(and there are a lot of them).
Staraptor:
85/120/70/50/50/100
For: Single-handedly destroys teams, can't be walled by Steels/Rocks, good speed and great attack, Intimidate softens physical blows, can even 2HKO Spiritomb and Bold Rotom.
Against: Weak to Stealth Rock, moveset is very predictable, extremely frail, dies very quickly due to recoil from Brave Bird.
Raikou:
90/85/75/115/100/115
For: Sub+CM set easily sweeps, brilliant speed allows for a sub before it can be statused, reasonably sturdy, special attack is good even without setup, Shuca berry removes it's only weakness.
Against: Not very sturdy on physical side, needs a Hidden power for coverage, and each hidden power choice lets it be walled by different things.
Shaymin:
100/100/100/100/100/100
For: Extremely bulky even without investment, Rest + Natural Cure allows it to keep coming back. Seed Flare's sp.def drop hurts.
Against: Switch out after Rest gives a free turn, can be beaten up by the hard hitters of UU, keeps things in check.
Abomasnow:
90/92/75/92/85/60
For: Auto-hail gives hail teams a distinct advantage over other weather teams, supports the famous Stallrein, 120 power STABs of decent attacking stats.
Against: Slow, not exactly a defensive beast, poor defensive typing.
These are the common arguments out there. Let's discuss?
EDIT: Added Typhlosion to that list. It's a freaking beast under the sun.
Ok, after looking through the thread, I feel that the pokemon that most people want to be banned are, in no particular order:
(note: this is not my BL list, but just a summary of what others have posted)
Gallade
Spiritomb
Staraptor
Raikou
Shaymin
Abomasnow
Typhlosion
Arguments can be made for each one of the above, either for or against banning. I will try to list out the arguments, please correct me if there are errors:
Gallade
68/125/65/65/115/80
For: Swords dance set too powerful for UU, decently bulky on the special side, possibly broken with paralysis support, good typing, not many safe switch-ins, resistant to Stealth Rock.
Against: Mediocre speed, prone to physical hits.
Spiritomb:
50/92/108/92/108/35
For: Defences are great, stalls out a lot, CM variants a major pain to take down, decent attacking stats.
Against: While it takes hits effectively, it only focuses on one end of the defensive spectrum, making the other one easy to exploit. Cannot repeatedly stand up to hard hitters(and there are a lot of them).
Staraptor:
85/120/70/50/50/100
For: Single-handedly destroys teams, can't be walled by Steels/Rocks, good speed and great attack, Intimidate softens physical blows, can even 2HKO Spiritomb and Bold Rotom.
Against: Weak to Stealth Rock, moveset is very predictable, extremely frail, dies very quickly due to recoil from Brave Bird.
Raikou:
90/85/75/115/100/115
For: Sub+CM set easily sweeps, brilliant speed allows for a sub before it can be statused, reasonably sturdy, special attack is good even without setup, Shuca berry removes it's only weakness.
Against: Not very sturdy on physical side, needs a Hidden power for coverage, and each hidden power choice lets it be walled by different things.
Shaymin:
100/100/100/100/100/100
For: Extremely bulky even without investment, Rest + Natural Cure allows it to keep coming back. Seed Flare's sp.def drop hurts.
Against: Switch out after Rest gives a free turn, can be beaten up by the hard hitters of UU, keeps things in check.
Abomasnow:
90/92/75/92/85/60
For: Auto-hail gives hail teams a distinct advantage over other weather teams, supports the famous Stallrein, 120 power STABs of decent attacking stats.
Against: Slow, not exactly a defensive beast, poor defensive typing.
These are the common arguments out there. Let's discuss?
EDIT: Added Typhlosion to that list. It's a freaking beast under the sun.
I hate to see a whole type of team disappear from the game (hail), but I am starting to agree with HeySup's rant. There is a very distict advantage that they have over non-weather teams. Ice type has never been all that great defensively, and this is probably the only argument for hail's "balance." Snow Cloak and 100% Accuracy Blizzards are ridiculous, and from things like Scarf Glaceon, even sturdy pokemon like Hariyama or Milotic can be taking it hard (milotic will at least be forced to recover, giving a free turn to switch).
I think magneton @ leftovers with flash cannon + HP ground should do well against hail teams. It takes care of all the major players in a hail team (flash cannon OHKOs abomasnow and froslass [be careful of destiny bond]), resists ice, and it's immune to toxic spikes. Coupling it with Wish clefable and you should be fine.
I think the big problem with that plan is that magneton is not holding up to blizzard attacks that even the likes of Thick Fat Hariyama and Slowbro have issues with. Plus they're faster, and where there on a team with ice attacks, there are bound to be water/ground/fighting attacks too. Magton doesn't like neutral hits at all . . .
Probably tl;dr, I tend to go on when writing these sorts of posts, but I will summarise my thought's at the end of my discursions on each Pokemon!
This is one thing that Stellar brought up in #newuu the other day. The statement was "Abomasnow and Walrein may be too much for the new UU." Now, after discussion I see no reason why it is Abomasnow himself we should ban. Brightpowder Froslass isn't exactly broken in my opinion, yes it has an element of luck, but I have no had large problems dealing with, and it's not like it has a decent recovery move or decent resistances to set up with (only real worthy resistance is fighting.) It seems to me that all of my battles against Hail Stall teams so far have been all about keeping the pressure on their Walrein and not allowing it to get going on a Substitute / Protect cycle.
Grounded Poison types are more common in UU, so people _may_ find themselves carrying one as a counter to Toxic Spikes anyway, often you don't have to go out of your way to get one, I have seen Toxicroak, both Nidos, Roserade and Drapion around. I am yet to be convinced that the Abomasnow + Walrein strategy is broken, but if it is, it is Walrein that I would like to see banned, not Abomasnow, as he is the only Pokemon that really benefits from the weather, and I'm sure Abomasnow could still fit some nice niches in more generic teams, as Tyranitar does in Overused. I would like to ban the Pokemon that is broken and only sets benefit entirely from the Hail, rather than blame the cause.
Summary: Should we deem this combination "broken" (I am yet to be convinced) then it is Walrein who should be banned. No other Pokemon are potentially broken under Hail. If we ban Abomasnow, Walrein will see little use unless your opponant wants to use Snover, if we ban Walrein, Abomasnow may still see use in UU, which would be nice.
Spiritomb usage has dropped recently, the set that got everyone going early on was the ResTalk Calm Mind set, which is slowly fading out to the Will-o-Wisp set, because it is mostly strong physical attackers that try to stop it. I agree that this combination of possible sets it could run is very effective. Taunt does ruin it, and that is run by every Crobat that you have also mentioned. Never to mind that it is dirt slow.
So, I guess there all I have really done is list it's characteristics, and they do seems impressive, so why am I currently erring on the side of not banning Spiritomb? I feel that Spritimb actually balances the metagame more than we expect, in old UU people would always carry at least one fighting type to make sure they could deal with Clefable well, and that made the metagame kinda sucky. In this metgame that is counter balanced by the larger presence of useable Ghost types, such as Mismagius and especially Spiritomb. I feel that banning Spritomb would probably pretty much break Gallade, but that is not the case at the moment. It would nessecitate the banning of Gallade, something people may not forsee at the time of voting =/ Why should we ban both, when we could ban neither. Not at one point have I felt that Spiritomb has been "too much" or "too hard to deal with," I guess that's just my experience.
Summary: Spiritomb is indeed a powerful threat, but it is not one that you have to go completely out of your way to deal with, it is still dealt with by many of the metagames top threats and helps keep fighting types, most notbaly Gallade under control. "Why ban both when we can be neither."
The one thing that really lets Gallade down is it's Speed, base 80 really doesn't cut it for this guy, in my experience. he is very open to revenge kills from the likes of Staraptor and Raikou, there was even a Speedy Miltank in an RMT the other day that could outspeed and KO =O (note that is not actually a part of my argument) Paralysis combined with it could potentially be an issue, as Caelum said, but running a team based on paralysis isn't always viable as there are a reasonable number of Status absorbers, or you could even simply use a Pokemon for status fodder. As me and others have already allured to Spiritomb keeps this nicely in check. That's all I really have to say on the subject of Gallade, it has not been overwhelming when used against me.
Summary: Poor Speed, and the need to resort to crude strategies to sort this out is an issue for this guy, many revenge killing threats are immune / don't care that much about Shadow Sneak. Kept in check by Gallade, not suspect worthy unless we start banning other things.
Staraptor was quite an early threat in the metagame. Umbarsc's warstory with an edited version of Chou Toshio's team also made me think of defensive Luxray although I ran a much cruder set than Eo did. I ran Toxic / Thunder Wave / Thunderbolt / Crunch, which was sorta ruined by Steelix and didn't really benefit my team on the whole. One can play around Staraptor with key resistances in the right places, Steelix and Crobat is a good combination, because (assuming you predict well) you always have an answer to one of its moves. Someone mentioned earlier in this thread about someone attempting to use a Life Orb set with Roost, I tried that and found it to be more effective than the Choice Bander, but the lack of U-Turn was a bit of a turn off.
Staraptor is not a nice Pokemon to deal with and has a chance of being BL in my opinion. I still don't know if I would personally vote to ban it myself, probably because I tend to be quite conservative with these things. It is a threat that is difficult to deal with, but not unmanegable assuming you play with an intelligant head. I am interested to see what the community votes on this one, as am I interested to see how my own opinions on it continue to form as the metagame evolves.
Summary: One of the larger threats in the current metagame, difficult to deal with, but not impossible, also it's Speed is not excellent and therefore can be quite easily revenge killed (Froslass, Raikou...) The Scarf set doesn't really pack as much power as you might want it to. It has flaws, but on the whole is a solid attacking Pokemon that can give a lot of the metagame a lot of grief. One of the larger potential suspects in my opinion.
Good One for finding this one LN, I am inclined to agree with you at this stage that Crobat is beginning to fit the definition of "ideal lead" for me. I am (again) interested to see how the metagame evolves around this one. I agree it is not in the league of Deoxys-S as people have pointed out, but Deoxys S was promoted to UBER not BL. It may beathat Taunt, a damn good attcking move in Brave Bird and the fact that it can Roost, and U-Turn are all very useful moves on a lead Pokemon, and enough to make it "the ideal candidate for leading your team."
What are the counter arguments then? With Deoxys there was very much this Taunt vs Taunt situation, whoever won the Tanut war was more likely to win the battle, as was proved, by many people, imperfectluck was one. Crobat can't set up much outside of weather to take advantage of winning a taunt, although I have found that weather is quite a force to be reckoned within this new metagame, again I am happy to wait on this one to see how dominant Crobat becomes as a lead, will its useage peak? If it does I'd be inclinded to label in "stong UU" not "BL."
Summary: Very useful lead, and my current ideal candidate for a lead, if it's useage continues to rise thanks to the excellent weather support it can provide I would be inclined to label it BL, but should it peak, and become more easily conterable, I think that it will merely a decent lead in UU.
In summary, finally, I can't help but feel people are taking in the majority "what you have used to win" and then labelling them as potential suspects, forgive me if I am wrong. It is not hard to get 6 Calm Minds on Spiritomb against a bad opponant, just as it is not hard to get 6 Calm Minds on a Suicune in OU against a bad opponant. If you can top the ladder with Swords Dance Lucario, I wouldn't deem that a it was a potential OU suspect. I feel that hyping suspects at this stage isn' a great way to be going about, as you can see many threats may not have let the metagame adapt to them. At the moment (although I would like useage statistics and possibly X-Acts diversity numbers to clarify this) I don't feel UU is too centrilised around any threats, obviosuly it is around some of the more threatening ones, but then so is any competitive metagame, no matter how hard we try. I would have no problem with not banning anything and leaving BL empty if the metagame stays as it is now.
That is all =) (I tend to harp on a bit, so if you did tl;dr this then I suggest you go up and read the summary points at the end of each Pokemon ^_^) Might add opinions on the others later.
This is one thing that Stellar brought up in #newuu the other day. The statement was "Abomasnow and Walrein may be too much for the new UU." Now, after discussion I see no reason why it is Abomasnow himself we should ban. Brightpowder Froslass isn't exactly broken in my opinion, yes it has an element of luck, but I have no had large problems dealing with, and it's not like it has a decent recovery move or decent resistances to set up with (only real worthy resistance is fighting.) It seems to me that all of my battles against Hail Stall teams so far have been all about keeping the pressure on their Walrein and not allowing it to get going on a Substitute / Protect cycle.
Grounded Poison types are more common in UU, so people _may_ find themselves carrying one as a counter to Toxic Spikes anyway, often you don't have to go out of your way to get one, I have seen Toxicroak, both Nidos, Roserade and Drapion around. I am yet to be convinced that the Abomasnow + Walrein strategy is broken, but if it is, it is Walrein that I would like to see banned, not Abomasnow, as he is the only Pokemon that really benefits from the weather, and I'm sure Abomasnow could still fit some nice niches in more generic teams, as Tyranitar does in Overused. I would like to ban the Pokemon that is broken and only sets benefit entirely from the Hail, rather than blame the cause.
Summary: Should we deem this combination "broken" (I am yet to be convinced) then it is Walrein who should be banned. No other Pokemon are potentially broken under Hail. If we ban Abomasnow, Walrein will see little use unless your opponant wants to use Snover, if we ban Walrein, Abomasnow may still see use in UU, which would be nice.
LonelyNess said:
Spiritomb usage has dropped recently, the set that got everyone going early on was the ResTalk Calm Mind set, which is slowly fading out to the Will-o-Wisp set, because it is mostly strong physical attackers that try to stop it. I agree that this combination of possible sets it could run is very effective. Taunt does ruin it, and that is run by every Crobat that you have also mentioned. Never to mind that it is dirt slow.
So, I guess there all I have really done is list it's characteristics, and they do seems impressive, so why am I currently erring on the side of not banning Spiritomb? I feel that Spritimb actually balances the metagame more than we expect, in old UU people would always carry at least one fighting type to make sure they could deal with Clefable well, and that made the metagame kinda sucky. In this metgame that is counter balanced by the larger presence of useable Ghost types, such as Mismagius and especially Spiritomb. I feel that banning Spritomb would probably pretty much break Gallade, but that is not the case at the moment. It would nessecitate the banning of Gallade, something people may not forsee at the time of voting =/ Why should we ban both, when we could ban neither. Not at one point have I felt that Spiritomb has been "too much" or "too hard to deal with," I guess that's just my experience.
Summary: Spiritomb is indeed a powerful threat, but it is not one that you have to go completely out of your way to deal with, it is still dealt with by many of the metagames top threats and helps keep fighting types, most notbaly Gallade under control. "Why ban both when we can be neither."
LonelyNess said:
The one thing that really lets Gallade down is it's Speed, base 80 really doesn't cut it for this guy, in my experience. he is very open to revenge kills from the likes of Staraptor and Raikou, there was even a Speedy Miltank in an RMT the other day that could outspeed and KO =O (note that is not actually a part of my argument) Paralysis combined with it could potentially be an issue, as Caelum said, but running a team based on paralysis isn't always viable as there are a reasonable number of Status absorbers, or you could even simply use a Pokemon for status fodder. As me and others have already allured to Spiritomb keeps this nicely in check. That's all I really have to say on the subject of Gallade, it has not been overwhelming when used against me.
Summary: Poor Speed, and the need to resort to crude strategies to sort this out is an issue for this guy, many revenge killing threats are immune / don't care that much about Shadow Sneak. Kept in check by Gallade, not suspect worthy unless we start banning other things.
LonelyNess said:
Staraptor was quite an early threat in the metagame. Umbarsc's warstory with an edited version of Chou Toshio's team also made me think of defensive Luxray although I ran a much cruder set than Eo did. I ran Toxic / Thunder Wave / Thunderbolt / Crunch, which was sorta ruined by Steelix and didn't really benefit my team on the whole. One can play around Staraptor with key resistances in the right places, Steelix and Crobat is a good combination, because (assuming you predict well) you always have an answer to one of its moves. Someone mentioned earlier in this thread about someone attempting to use a Life Orb set with Roost, I tried that and found it to be more effective than the Choice Bander, but the lack of U-Turn was a bit of a turn off.
Staraptor is not a nice Pokemon to deal with and has a chance of being BL in my opinion. I still don't know if I would personally vote to ban it myself, probably because I tend to be quite conservative with these things. It is a threat that is difficult to deal with, but not unmanegable assuming you play with an intelligant head. I am interested to see what the community votes on this one, as am I interested to see how my own opinions on it continue to form as the metagame evolves.
Summary: One of the larger threats in the current metagame, difficult to deal with, but not impossible, also it's Speed is not excellent and therefore can be quite easily revenge killed (Froslass, Raikou...) The Scarf set doesn't really pack as much power as you might want it to. It has flaws, but on the whole is a solid attacking Pokemon that can give a lot of the metagame a lot of grief. One of the larger potential suspects in my opinion.
LonelyNess said:
Good One for finding this one LN, I am inclined to agree with you at this stage that Crobat is beginning to fit the definition of "ideal lead" for me. I am (again) interested to see how the metagame evolves around this one. I agree it is not in the league of Deoxys-S as people have pointed out, but Deoxys S was promoted to UBER not BL. It may beathat Taunt, a damn good attcking move in Brave Bird and the fact that it can Roost, and U-Turn are all very useful moves on a lead Pokemon, and enough to make it "the ideal candidate for leading your team."
What are the counter arguments then? With Deoxys there was very much this Taunt vs Taunt situation, whoever won the Tanut war was more likely to win the battle, as was proved, by many people, imperfectluck was one. Crobat can't set up much outside of weather to take advantage of winning a taunt, although I have found that weather is quite a force to be reckoned within this new metagame, again I am happy to wait on this one to see how dominant Crobat becomes as a lead, will its useage peak? If it does I'd be inclinded to label in "stong UU" not "BL."
Summary: Very useful lead, and my current ideal candidate for a lead, if it's useage continues to rise thanks to the excellent weather support it can provide I would be inclined to label it BL, but should it peak, and become more easily conterable, I think that it will merely a decent lead in UU.
In summary, finally, I can't help but feel people are taking in the majority "what you have used to win" and then labelling them as potential suspects, forgive me if I am wrong. It is not hard to get 6 Calm Minds on Spiritomb against a bad opponant, just as it is not hard to get 6 Calm Minds on a Suicune in OU against a bad opponant. If you can top the ladder with Swords Dance Lucario, I wouldn't deem that a it was a potential OU suspect. I feel that hyping suspects at this stage isn' a great way to be going about, as you can see many threats may not have let the metagame adapt to them. At the moment (although I would like useage statistics and possibly X-Acts diversity numbers to clarify this) I don't feel UU is too centrilised around any threats, obviosuly it is around some of the more threatening ones, but then so is any competitive metagame, no matter how hard we try. I would have no problem with not banning anything and leaving BL empty if the metagame stays as it is now.
That is all =) (I tend to harp on a bit, so if you did tl;dr this then I suggest you go up and read the summary points at the end of each Pokemon ^_^) Might add opinions on the others later.
I theoretically don't have a problem with most snow teams (I do due to both my lack of skill and luck). To counter them, I use sandstorm Bastiodon; his special defense goes sky high after the initial sandstorm (when they switch to their inevitable earthquake/generic fighting move user). Metal Burst is pretty useful if you think they're gonna pull something shifty and he can support with roar/sr/taunt if you want. He also can roar/metal burst on CM Raikou so long as it doesn't have HP Ground. Unfortunately, it can't do much offensively.
Ok I'll admit that I can come off a little strong from time to time (how was I flattering myself?), but that doesn't make his post any better. The point I was trying to get across was that he was consistently trying to pass off his opinion as fact, which is something that needs to be cut out of this thread wherever possible. I wasn't even trying to provide a counter-argument to his arguments, just pointing out and refuting any statements he made that I found to be incorrect or misleading. The burden of proof is on the accuser after all. The best way for Lonelyness to respond to my retort would be to either admit that he made some very rash statements that aren't exactly true, or to show that I am somehow mistaken in my interpretation of the various discussion points he brought up, preferably with some evidence backing it up.
HeYsUp's recent post aggravates me in a similar way, though to a slightly lesser extent. GF's post above, on the other hand, is a great example of how to go about intelligent discussion. He has given a reasoned and unbiased account of his own interpretations of the metagame with an open mind kept at all times, which is something that I can definitely respect.
A couple of unrelated things:
Actually max/max Rotom takes 51% maximum from Adamant CB Staraptor, meaning that only Adamant versions have a chance to 2HKO, and only with Stealth Rock down. So you're right in that it isn't an absolute 100% counter, but it is still a fairly reliable one, especially if you have a Steel / Rock type to absorb Brave Birds if necessary. I don't normally like using theorymon to defend a set, but I think this one deserves more credit. I've used it myself to reasonable success.
Lanturn can use Waterfall to consistently break Raikou's subs with a suitable investment in Attack. Don't you dare call it gimmicky, I've used it myself to great success, especially alongside paralysis from Thunder. A better argument would be that it loses to HP Grass / Ground variants one-on-one, so it wouldn't be a good idea to rely solely on it for Raikou.
With a Sassy nature and 0 Atk investment, Lanturn's Aqua Tail does an average of 25.71% to standard 68 HP / 0 Def Raikou. That's a 58% chance of bringing down the Sub. 48 Atk EVs guarantees it. If you were to use Waterfall, you'd need 132 Atk EVs to break the Sub everytime.
Seems pretty viable to me, but I hate the idea of using all those EVs for Waterfall so I'd probably go with Aqua Tail. I just find it so difficult to split Lanturn's EVs as it is.
There's this move called "Hail" that can be used just like Sunny Day and Rain Dance. There's Sandstorm too. I know I've seen "manual" Sandstorm teams back in old UU.
Only because auto weather pokés might leave, doesn't really mean everyone is going to stop playing Hail/Sandstorm.
Yes, but SS and even more so Hail are often stall teams. Stallrein is rather useless without permaweather, you can't go for a little hax with Froslass if you only have a few turns.
I'm pretty sure Hail will be gone if either Abomasnow or Walrein is banned.
Agreed. Hail is not infallibe. It's not even unreasonably hard to prepare for. Just do one or two of the following:
- Use Clefable.
- Use Stealth Rock. 2/3 of every Hail team are SR weak.
- Use hard-hitting Fire, Rock and Fighting moves.
- Use Encore, Taunt, and phazers.
- Carry a spinner or grounded Poison type.
- Kill their Abomasnow and set up your own weather.
Hail strikes me as no more and no less than a balanced, viable, competetive tactic that adds flavour and variety to the metagame. Without it, Rain Dance teams would overrun new UU just like they did in old UU.
Banning Walrien seems silly to me when everyone can just go ahead and start using Glalie, who has the same ability and all of the support options open to Walrien expect Yawn.
In fact I think I'll go make a hail team with Glalie right now for the nostalgia of using it before a potential Abomasnow banning.
In fact I think I'll go make a hail team with Glalie right now for the nostalgia of using it before a potential Abomasnow banning.
Hey guys, I've been trying out a bit more new stuff on this new team, and here's a member who's been there since the beginning, but has been consistently ripping shit apart:
Regirock @Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk/252 Spe/4 SpD
Adamant nature
Clear Body
- Rock Polish
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Explosion
People often expect Regirock to be going on the defensive, or team support role, but I decided to try him out a little differently this time. I already have a Stealth Rocker, so I didn't really need him to be one. However, I really wanted to give Regirock a try in this new metagame, so I looked at Regirock's movepool and tried a Rock Polish set.
It's very unexpected, but it sweeps very well. After a Rock Polish, it reaches 398 Speed, outspeeding all +Speed base 130s including Crobat and friends. It can then attempt a sweep with 426 Attack after Life Orb. I haven't tried this in Sandstorm, but only in regular conditions. However, even in regular conditions, it is still quite easy to sweep with.
One of the reasons to use this set is for a quick and powerful Explosion. A Life Orb Explosion OHKOs a lot of things, and it's nice and easy to let Regirock go boom after he can't do anymore. It usually gets me at least 2 kills in a match thanks to this. This also makes it so he's not inferior to Relicanth at sweeping.
Another reason to use this, particularly over Relicanth is Clear Body. This means that Intimidators such as Staraptor, Arcanine, or Luxray cannot keep on switching in and out to lower Regirock's Attack, which is very handy.
As I mentioned, I haven't used this in Sandstorm, but I can only imagine that it's very hard to kill in one. With 301 HP, 436 Defense, and 354 Special Defense with 0 defensive EVs during a Sandstorm, it's one of the bulkiest sweepers out there. 236 Special Defense is still not bad either, though Regirock does die easily to Surfs with the boost.
Regirock @Life Orb
EVs: 252 Atk/252 Spe/4 SpD
Adamant nature
Clear Body
- Rock Polish
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Explosion
People often expect Regirock to be going on the defensive, or team support role, but I decided to try him out a little differently this time. I already have a Stealth Rocker, so I didn't really need him to be one. However, I really wanted to give Regirock a try in this new metagame, so I looked at Regirock's movepool and tried a Rock Polish set.
It's very unexpected, but it sweeps very well. After a Rock Polish, it reaches 398 Speed, outspeeding all +Speed base 130s including Crobat and friends. It can then attempt a sweep with 426 Attack after Life Orb. I haven't tried this in Sandstorm, but only in regular conditions. However, even in regular conditions, it is still quite easy to sweep with.
One of the reasons to use this set is for a quick and powerful Explosion. A Life Orb Explosion OHKOs a lot of things, and it's nice and easy to let Regirock go boom after he can't do anymore. It usually gets me at least 2 kills in a match thanks to this. This also makes it so he's not inferior to Relicanth at sweeping.
Another reason to use this, particularly over Relicanth is Clear Body. This means that Intimidators such as Staraptor, Arcanine, or Luxray cannot keep on switching in and out to lower Regirock's Attack, which is very handy.
As I mentioned, I haven't used this in Sandstorm, but I can only imagine that it's very hard to kill in one. With 301 HP, 436 Defense, and 354 Special Defense with 0 defensive EVs during a Sandstorm, it's one of the bulkiest sweepers out there. 236 Special Defense is still not bad either, though Regirock does die easily to Surfs with the boost.
@Lemmiwinks-- I won't call it gimmicky, but you won't get me to call it efficient either, and essentially pointless except in any other situation.
@Hail-- Walrein is hardly the culprit of this issue, because frankly beating hail is not all about beating walrein. Froslass with its spikes/destiny bond game and Glaceon with 100% accurate blizzard, both with activated snow cloak, are as much at fault.
If anything, walrein is easier in some ways because:
-It's so damn predictable
-It gives you a lot of turns (in sub/protect) to freely use your counter-strategy.
Froslass and Glaceon on the other hand can create advantage instantly.
Grounded Poisons: Like I said, even more than toxic spikes (after all, roserade/nidoqueen/venusaur/drapion are everywhere anyway), the bigger issue is froslass' regular spikes. Not to mention that of those 4, who are decidedly the most popular "grounded poisons" imo, 3 are weak to blizzard . . .
Spinner: Against a team with cloak'd lass using d-bond/blizzard with a good chance of seeing spiritomb as well? >__________________> Not to mention every time your spinner comes in, it'll just be eaten by hail, or fighting "itemless" if it goes with lefties.
If we had tentacruel down here, I might feel different but . . . oh wait, but then tentacruel would be on every hail team. >>
@Offensive Regirock-- that thing kicks ass. It really does. Not ban-worthy though, which seems to be the topic of the last few pages.
@Hail-- Walrein is hardly the culprit of this issue, because frankly beating hail is not all about beating walrein. Froslass with its spikes/destiny bond game and Glaceon with 100% accurate blizzard, both with activated snow cloak, are as much at fault.
If anything, walrein is easier in some ways because:
-It's so damn predictable
-It gives you a lot of turns (in sub/protect) to freely use your counter-strategy.
Froslass and Glaceon on the other hand can create advantage instantly.
Grounded Poisons: Like I said, even more than toxic spikes (after all, roserade/nidoqueen/venusaur/drapion are everywhere anyway), the bigger issue is froslass' regular spikes. Not to mention that of those 4, who are decidedly the most popular "grounded poisons" imo, 3 are weak to blizzard . . .
Spinner: Against a team with cloak'd lass using d-bond/blizzard with a good chance of seeing spiritomb as well? >__________________> Not to mention every time your spinner comes in, it'll just be eaten by hail, or fighting "itemless" if it goes with lefties.
If we had tentacruel down here, I might feel different but . . . oh wait, but then tentacruel would be on every hail team. >>
@Offensive Regirock-- that thing kicks ass. It really does. Not ban-worthy though, which seems to be the topic of the last few pages.
Has anyone considered Registeel being broken? People tend naturally to pick out the sweepers as broken, but I personally have had trouble making a good team without Registeel. Its offenses are fairly low sure, but it doesn't need to invest EV's in defensive stats anyway.Registeel's defenses are so high that it is almost impossible to OHKO without a STAB super effective attack and even those usually will fail.
Pure Steel is really strong typing due to all the resists, and Registeel takes very little damage from attacks it's weak to. I would say it's comparable to Steelix, only with Twave and special defense equal to its defense.
Pure Steel is really strong typing due to all the resists, and Registeel takes very little damage from attacks it's weak to. I would say it's comparable to Steelix, only with Twave and special defense equal to its defense.
First off, weather moves such as Sandstorm and Hail are definately not viable. My reasoning for this is simply that you can get a maximum of eight turns out of them (I believe it is seven if you include the turn you set it up, but I cannot be sure of this, can anyone confirm?) While this may be a viable strategy for offenive based weather teams (Sun and Rain, and it is "just about" long enough for them), it really does not cut it for Stall based weather teams such as Hail and Sandstorm. Imagine StallRein, it needs to break it's Sub Protect cycle 6 times (because I doubt it wouldn't carry Leftovers) to keep itself going.
I might take back what I said about banning Walrein and not Abomasnow if I consistantly get beaten by a Scarf Glaceon, but anything that resists it's Blizzard _should_ do well enough against it, although Sand Veil hax can be a bit of a bitch. As for StallGlalie I can say that one of the huge disadvantages that it has to StallRein is the fact that it is again weak to fire, Walrein is at least neutral to it, and bulky enough to shake off weaker hits. Glalie is not a bulky as Walrein, and cannot, therefore, survive as often with enough health to set up a sub and then start the cycle.
@ Bologo, I really like the Regirock ^_^ I will be sure to try that out when I get around to building my next team, it looks pretty awesome, I guess Steelix Gyro could be nasty after a Rock Polish, I doubt Earthquake does loads, so it looks "checkable." As a general rule I really don't think Sandstorm is viable tactic in UU, but that really looks like something it might be worth it for, all you need is the extra Special Defence for one turn to set up, and then the Sandstorm ending isn't an issue. This way you potentially slap Sandstorm on a random Pokemon that can use it, without having to resort to Hippopotas for pera-weather. Go offensive Sandstorm!
I might take back what I said about banning Walrein and not Abomasnow if I consistantly get beaten by a Scarf Glaceon, but anything that resists it's Blizzard _should_ do well enough against it, although Sand Veil hax can be a bit of a bitch. As for StallGlalie I can say that one of the huge disadvantages that it has to StallRein is the fact that it is again weak to fire, Walrein is at least neutral to it, and bulky enough to shake off weaker hits. Glalie is not a bulky as Walrein, and cannot, therefore, survive as often with enough health to set up a sub and then start the cycle.
@ Bologo, I really like the Regirock ^_^ I will be sure to try that out when I get around to building my next team, it looks pretty awesome, I guess Steelix Gyro could be nasty after a Rock Polish, I doubt Earthquake does loads, so it looks "checkable." As a general rule I really don't think Sandstorm is viable tactic in UU, but that really looks like something it might be worth it for, all you need is the extra Special Defence for one turn to set up, and then the Sandstorm ending isn't an issue. This way you potentially slap Sandstorm on a random Pokemon that can use it, without having to resort to Hippopotas for pera-weather. Go offensive Sandstorm!
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