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np: UU - A New Beginning

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I think you remember battling my Trick Room Team. If it comes from the unexpected, it is highly likely you can pull of any sort of team effect. I get my Porygon-2 Taunted from Crobats, Persians, and Ambipoms less than half the time, and I set up. Even if they Taunt, they end up losing their lead and taking away their precious turns of Taunt. Also any type of Spikes, Toxic Spikes, or Stealth Rock, will prevent Snover from entering the field multiple times. Also... if you have a weather setuper, Snover will have to enter the arena yet again (even less health) That gives you 2 turns of setup. 1 to hit Snover as it switches in, the other to perform your weather move again as it switches out.

On the other hand, I agree, Abomanasnow has to go. I would like to hear more evidence on Snover though.
 
Oh hey guys, just some notes from my end.

> I'm done being an advocate for Abomasnow and Hail stall. I hate stall...
> Ampharos is a beast. Being able to handle common threats.
> I've noticed a decline in Raikou usuage and complaints.
> I believe that a standard team is coming about. That being...
-> Staraptor - Registeel - Shaymin - Milotic/ Slowbro - Fire Type - Filler
--> Filler being: Crobat, Chansey, Gallade, Mismagious, or Claydol.
> Not many NFE's floating around with the exception of Chansey.
> Someone needs to become innovative and create a decent Sand Team...
-> I'm looking at you top of the ladder guys. Your #1. make another #1 team.

Uhm.. thats all for now?
 
Well, the factor of surprise sort of vanishes upon rematches, so in a sense, that's not consistent. But I suppose, in another sense, the fact that the various people you face do not expect it and thus let you set up means that it is consistent. I do sometimes have to wonder whether it is Abomasnow or Hail that I want UU to get rid of, so I see where you're coming from.
 
I don't know which should be gotten rid of either. It will have to be discussed more. And, as you said, you keep running into the same people. Then it just becomes a guessing game :). (sighs) I hope we just make the right decision.

For Explanation Point: Same here, I love playing a team that is different form the norm, it tests you. And it is generally more fun.
 
Sand teams are pretty viable. The only problem is that they have big troubles against hail teams, who have a more durable weather changer.
 
Yes, but if Abomanasnow goes...

Yes, Eo Ut Mortus is right, we NEED to figure out the difference between Hail and Abamanasnow. Should we proceed this by testing out Snover as a lead temporarily?
 
I found another good Hail Team counter!

Houndoom (M) @ Lum Berry/Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 Spd/252 SAtk/4 SDef
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Substitute
- Dark Pulse
- Flamethrower
- Nasty Plot

Pull up a sub and if you get the chance. NP up. Use Dark Pulse on Froslass to avoid hitting a Flash Fire poke. If Wailrein comes in on a Sub to surf your ass. NP and Flamethrower away. Since most Wailrein are EV'd defensively This should put him in faint range for sure. As does...

(Arcanine) (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 Atk/4 Def/252 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Crunch
- Flare Blitz
- Extremespeed
- Overheat

Self explanitory. CB Flare Blitz, will in most cases, kill Wailfag without Flash Fire activated. Ark hits 525 Max Attack. Wailrein at Max resistance is 424HP 306 Defense. This does 336 Minimum Add to the fact that SR will most likely be up and taking 106 out of Wailrein. So it will be an OHKO unless it protects <>__<>. In that case It can simply counter with Surf! (uncommon) But with Flash Fire activated its an OKHO without SR up anyway. That is provided I did the math right >__<. Pretty pathetic I am sometimes. Anyways. At the same time Ark takes out Wailrein. Ark is either mortally wounded to the point where a priority move or Hail will take him out. Or dead anyway. Mission accomplished Ark. Now your dead! D=

Anyway, Just to check up. Ive been seeing more and more weather changing on teams. And to be quite honest. Its giving me a harder time. Sometimes I need to wait until somthing has fainted so I can bring in Abomasnow because I can't risk it getting hit by say a Kabutops Stone Edge / Rock Slide.

Okay. After following this thread for a long time I can easily say that MOST if not more then most of you are fed up with Hail. And thats understandable. I can almost, feel, your pain =D. And if Abomasnow is to be found broken by Smogon University. I will humbley accept that. I have made it further then I ever have on Shoddybattle. And I am satisfied. I am giddy in the fact that I helped make Hail broken!

If you are to take Abomasnow to BL tier. I would have to argue that you take Snover to the NU tier. To get rid of Hail completely. To appease the likes of HeYsUp. Even though we all know that the only thing keeping Snovers usage down is that fact that Abomasnow is a team player. If Abomasnow is gone we would definitly see enough of Snover to consider him UU. But in my opinion. Putting Snover into NU would only force me to make an NU Hail team with Sealeo, and Glalie, and some other shit. I can't wait to hear the complaints NU Hail teams will plauge most with ^_^. " Mooove Snover to UU Jackass! Its too powerful here!" Hahahah can't wait.

On another note. The thought of being forced into using Snover over my dear Abomasnow is so repulsive to think about I want to cut my wrists if it ever comes to that (Phsyc) SO YOU WIN!
 
7ay said:
I found another good Hail Team counter!

Houndoom (M) @ Lum Berry/Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 Spd/252 SAtk/4 SDef
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Substitute
- Dark Pulse
- Flamethrower
- Nasty Plot

Pull up a sub and if you get the chance. NP up. Use Dark Pulse on Froslass to avoid hitting a Flash Fire poke. If Wailrein comes in on a Sub to surf your ass. NP and Flamethrower away. Since most Wailrein are EV'd defensively This should put him in faint range for sure. As does...

(Arcanine) (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 Atk/4 Def/252 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Crunch
- Flare Blitz
- Extremespeed
- Overheat

Self explanitory. CB Flare Blitz, will in most cases, kill Wailfag without Flash Fire activated. Ark hits 525 Max Attack. Wailrein at Max resistance is 424HP 306 Defense. This does 336 Minimum Add to the fact that SR will most likely be up and taking 106 out of Wailrein. So it will be an OHKO unless it protects <>__<>. In that case It can simply counter with Surf! (uncommon) But with Flash Fire activated its an OKHO without SR up anyway. That is provided I did the math right >__<. Pretty pathetic I am sometimes. Anyways. At the same time Ark takes out Wailrein. Ark is either mortally wounded to the point where a priority move or Hail will take him out. Or dead anyway. Mission accomplished Ark. Now your dead! D=

Anyway, Just to check up. Ive been seeing more and more weather changing on teams. Because they can't deal with Abomonasnow. And to be quite honest. Its giving me a harder time. Sometimes I need to wait until somthing has fainted so I can bring in Abomasnow because I can't risk it getting hit by say a Kabutops Stone Edge / Rock Slide. When you keep the weather, you have the advantage.

Okay. After following this thread for a long time I can easily say that MOST if not more then most of you are fed up with Hail. And thats understandable. I can almost, feel, your pain =D. And if Abomasnow is to be found broken by Smogon University. I will humbley accept that. I have made it further then I ever have on Shoddybattle. And I am satisfied. I am giddy in the fact that I helped make Hail broken!

Um... we are trying to figure out whether it is hail or abomonasnow that is broken. Personally, I think it is abomonasnow, but I'm not sure. We have yet to see. It would be interesting to try out an Abomonasnowless enviroment, so we can see if hail is truly broken. But then again, I don't decide what gets moved to BL.

If you are to take Abomasnow to BL tier. I would have to argue that you take Snover to the NU tier. To get rid of Hail completely. To appease the likes of HeYsUp. How would this help? They aren't biased about hail, their biased against how easy it is to set up. If hail is harder to set up, then they cannot complain anymore. Even though we all know that the only thing keeping Snovers usage down is that fact that Abomasnow is a team player. If Abomasnow is gone we would definitly see enough of Snover to consider him UU. But in my opinion. Putting Snover into NU would only force me to make an NU Hail team with Sealeo, and Glalie, and some other shit. I can't wait to hear the complaints NU Hail teams will plauge most with ^_^. " Mooove Snover to UU Jackass! Its too powerful here!" Hahahah can't wait. If Snover is broken in NU, it will be put in UU. That's just the way it happens I guess.

On another note. The thought of being forced into using Snover over my dear Abomasnow is so repulsive to think about I want to cut my wrists if it ever comes to that (Phsyc) SO YOU WIN! UMMM...No comments needed. Just don't.
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Comments in BOLD (Yes I know that contained Italic and Underline too.)
 
Seems like the debate over Abomasnow is coming to a close.. hopefully.

Edit:

Lol, Abomasnow's Auto-Hail is whats broken. Hail itself isn't. I think that Hail teams would be perfectectly viable still with Snover.

Edit2:

Aside from Snover's GOD awful stats >.>.
 
Relictivity: Um... we are trying to figure out whether it is hail or abomonasnow that is broken

Yeah, you were? Since when? Since a couple posts back? So you just started then. Anyway, nobody is going to sacrifice what precious little time they have with Abomasnow and use Snover just to prove that Hails broken. Thats for damn sure. Anyway. Whats your argument? Hail is broken because of Snowcloak and Ice Body and Hail makes leftovers on basically everything useless and only lets them endure the Hail without losing health. And 100% Blizzard? Oh noes! Sandstorm boosts Rock type special defense 1.5x That outclasses Hail right there.

Relictivity: Because they can't deal with Abomonasnow

You make it seem like changing the weather is a bad thing. As you say-

Relictivity: When you keep the weather, you have the advantage.

And why? Why? Do the quotes say that the person is Fat when they are quoted. Its kind of odd.
 
Hail has much better stallers than Sandstorm and has better Hail activated abilities. Ice is also the only type not damaged. Sandstorm teams have problems with waters jsut like hail teams have problems with rock and steel. The other weaknesses have ice-type counters.

Yes, I despise that fat that begins the rebuttal. I would rather it say "posted by ..."

It is my hope to make hail and sandstorm as even as possible.
 
Main Stallers of Hail and Sandstorm.

Abomasnow, Glaceon, Wailrein

VS.

Regirock, Shuckle and Cradily

Wailrein has stockpile. But theres no reason to even mention that as stockpile Wailrein is not being used if at all. He also shares curse with Glaceon. I don't think Abomasnow gets any stat up moves. But It does get leechseed.

Cradily has stockpile and swords dance. and Regirock has Curse and amnesia. Shuckle doesn't even need those kind of moves and thankfully doesnt get them.

Seems pretty equal to me MasterChief
 
Hail's added effects are arguably not as great as people think.

Yes Ice Body is a nice addition but the problem with Hail compared to SS is a limited number of Pokemon. Most Hail teams run the same six. Of course this can vary on whether the Hail team is OU or UU because in which case you have a slight change in maybe one Pokemon for Weavile.

Hail teams have what? Aboma,Walrein,Froslass,Cloyster.Regice,Weavile,Glaceon,Mamoswine,Articuno.

That is generally the basic set of Hail based pokemon, correct? In sandstorm, although you don't have the added effects of say Ice Body you, as said have arguably better added effects. In Hail yes you do get Snow Cloak but that's just the sandstorm equivalent of Sand Veil. Ice Body is there but an equivalent of that is the added 1.5 Sp.Def boost that Rock types get. Yes it's limited to Rock but here's another argument to be brought up: there's a larger number of Rock-type Pokemon than there are of Pokemon who get Ice Body. There's......Walrein. That's it? Pretty sure only Walrein. Rock types you have Rhyperior,TTar,Regirock,Cradily,Relicanth,Aerodactyl, and so many others.

The versatility of SS applies not only to Rock types getting SpDef boost but also to the point of being able to use Rock,Ground and Steel types.

This is mostly just what I think. If where I'm coming in is completely fucked up and wrong then just inform me and I'll call myself a dipshit and have my post deleted >_>.
 
7ay said:
Relictivity: Um... we are trying to figure out whether it is hail or abomonasnow that is broken

Yeah, you were? Since when? Since a couple posts back? So you just started then. Anyway, nobody is going to sacrifice what precious little time they have with Abomasnow and use Snover just to prove that Hails broken. Thats for damn sure. Anyway. Whats your argument? Hail is broken because of Snowcloak and Ice Body and Hail makes leftovers on basically everything useless and only lets them endure the Hail without losing health. And 100% Blizzard? Oh noes! Sandstorm boosts Rock type special defense 1.5x That outclasses Hail right there.
Click to expand...

The majority of people who are against Hail whose views I've seen have seemed to be arguing against Hail itself. While this is probably the most likely point, it hasn't been officially established. Abomasnow is a respectable Pokemon in itself, thanks to SubSeeding combined with 100% acc Blizzard.

I have hardly seen any Sandstorm teams, let alone any SD Cradily's or Amnesia Regirocks. Hail is undoubtedly more common, and there has to be a reason for that.

Mamoswine
Click to expand...

I'm skeptical of your experience seeing as Mamoswine is OU.
 
Sandstorm has much better stallers. The three SS stallers are practically inpenetrable after boosting, while the ice stallers have common physical weaknesses and dont have sky high defensive stats.
Basically, you lose if your opponents last pokemon is Shuckle in the sand
 
Umm.. Yeah NightFalcon doesnt UU.

However, hes thinking of making an anti-hail team to prove his point.

I can only assume it will have Registeel, Moltres, some other Fire (Blaziken would be a good choice) poke a rock water like Omynite, Kabutops, or Relicanth. Throw in Clefable and Shaymin and viola.

That should be more then enough to cripple any Hail team and still maintain against none Hail-Stall straight up : /
 
You seem to me to be saying that I'm saying that hail is broken. No. Abomanasnow is broken.

Yes, we all wish Mamoswine was here, but it is not. :(

Your forgetting to mention Lapras.

Fires don't do any good when you have your own Relicanth to put Blazikens where they should be. How many Superpowers can he survive?
Also, Slowbro can survive 2 Night Slashes from Gallade. Your whole team should not be ice. Also, Glaceon is deadly. A miss is bad. It's defenses are good. Enough said.

Cradily is afraid of ice, and doesn't carry rock attacks unless it's an SDer

Regirock is a bit harder. But SE attacks still hurt. You have Walerin, right? Toxic also reduces viability.

Toxic destroys Shuckle without Rest. And if you decide to use Relicanth from up there, it is royally screwed as waterfall will prevent it from trying to use Power Trick.
 
I think people are missing a HUGE part of Hail vs Sandstorm.

Ice Body =/= 1.5 Sdef boost.

Ice Body, with protect and substitute give a Pokemon the ability to PERMANENTLY, at the most take 1% Damage per turn. Walrein has the defensive stats to pull this off, as there are a shit ton of pokemon it can set up subsitute on. You need to attack this thing 75 times on average to kill it, without sacrificing a pokemon, and you need to HAVE the right pokemon. It also needs to have leftovers, and be immune to Toxic. SDef boost is a GREAT aspect to a metagame. Its really a clever thing, while not being broken, like walrein+hail.

7ay, in your post especially, you forgot another main point. Sand Veil on a Slow ass terrible defensive typed pokemon with spikes is NOT broken. Froslass can be taunted by like 3 Pokemon, most of them getting OHKOd by Blizzard. Froslass is ALOT better in any case then a pokemon who does not even receive the secondary benefit of Sandstorm, being the SpDefense Boost, but Froslass can still Blizzard for 100% Accuracy.

I think it really shows the lack of thought people put into this topic when they start comparing Sand Veil on an terrible spiker like Cacturn, to Snow Cloak on an amazing Spiker such as Froslass. Froslass can even Block rapid spin for itself.

Also, dont bring Rain and Sun into this arguement, they are NOT permanent weather effects.

For people who disagree with Snover also, i want to hear how you can deal with Walrein, while not having to pack a hail counter.

People see Raikou and Hail less, because they are testing new stuff.

Edit: @ 7ay, the fact that you thought of a team that would effectively counter hail shows overcentralization.
 
Have any of you guys been playing since the test started? Because nobody was having problems with hail stall at the beginning, so I'd like to know what changed that hail is now become a problem.
 
I run a rain team so I find myself having to walk a fine line against most hail teams. However, I have quite a few pokemon that can outspeed and do big time damage to Abomasnow that I'll generally be able to eliminate it and set up rain again, really neutralizing all the Hail backed pokemon.

However, I can't imagine how annoying it is dealing with Walrein and all the 100% accuracy Blizzards when you can't create your own weather.
 
TVboyCanti said:
Have any of you guys been playing since the test started? Because nobody was having problems with hail stall at the beginning, so I'd like to know what changed that hail is now become a problem.
Click to expand...

Yes they did, did you read the first half of this thread....?
 
HeYsUp said:
Ice Body, with protect and substitute give a Pokemon the ability to PERMANENTLY, at the most take 1% Damage per turn. Walrein has the defensive stats to pull this off, as there are a shit ton of pokemon it can set up subsitute on. You need to attack this thing 75 times on average to kill it, without sacrificing a pokemon, and you need to HAVE the right pokemon. It also needs to have leftovers, and be immune to Toxic. SDef boost is a GREAT aspect to a metagame. Its really a clever thing, while not being broken, like walrein+hail.
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There are other ways to deal with wallrein though, phasing, being faster with a negative priority move or slower with a positive priority move, encore, taunt, snatch, changing the weather, all of these work and there's a bunch of stuff that can do these things in UU.

Why aren't people using them? because the metagame hasn't matured yet.

The next step is for such things to become extremely common, if hail teams still do not drop in popularity, then it will be much easier to make a case for perma-hail being broken, until we get there, I think we're jumping the gun a little bit.
 
TVboyCanti said:
Have any of you guys been playing since the test started? Because nobody was having problems with hail stall at the beginning, so I'd like to know what changed that hail is now become a problem.
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I guess that at that time, Hail stall wasn't recognized as a real threat. Now more and more people have realised its potential. This is exactly what happened to one of our favorite ubers(3 guesses who). Noone complained until we found Yache/SD and used it so much that it got banned.
 
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