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Lati@s Discussion Thread

Tekken7, you have no idea how latios's impact will affect latias, latias hasnt even been implemented in standard yet so we don't know how latias will act in standard. Also, while Latias and Latios are similar, they have enough different characteristics to set them apart.

Latios will be more offensive based and can use physical attacks. Latias on the other hand can pass wishes, set up dual screens, it depends if you prefer bulk or power.

Latios and Latias are different pokemon and play different roles, one does not necessarily outclass the other.

Back on topic,, I can't wait to try specs draco meteor off 130 base sp. atk, oh man that is going to be powerful.
 
i thinked that way because every one i encountered on the ladder used a CM Latias which Latios does better and her other sets are done better by other pokemon hence by assumption of it not staying OU for long.
 
Back on topic,, I can't wait to try specs draco meteor off 130 base sp. atk, oh man that is going to be powerful.
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And I don't want to be at the end of that Draco Meteor.

And Tekken7, Latias is more of a support mon than an offensive one. Latios is made to destroy things.
 
You could argue that Latias does Calm Mind better because it can set up easier against pokemon like gengar and yanmega. Both have their pros and cons.
 
I'm curious to test the DD-Outrage set considering that it's able to nearly ohko blissey after a dragon dance.

Also, I agree with panamaxis, even if they share the same type combination, ability and speed, latios and latias play different roles.
Only the test will say if latios can be OU or not.
 
I think Latios might do the whole calm minder with one attack thing better than Latias could. Whereas with Latias' increased defenses you could do things like survive 2 shadow balls from Gengar after a boost, its subpar SpA stat often let it down, particularly against Blissey. Latios is easily more adept at taking on Blissey, as even with minimal investment it can 2HKO with Dragon Pulse at +6. Just like Latias, it can EV to survive 4 consecutive Seismic Tosses with Leftovers, has Recover and Refresh, and can OHKO Gengar after a boost with no investment. Although it does seem a shame to run a defensive set with Leftovers on something that is simply screaming 'Let me Specs Draco Meteor everything into oblivion!"

Also, Latios will do the LO Psycho Shifter set that RL used with Latias (wannabe Latios RL =P) a lot better with its increased SpA:

Latios @ Life Orb
Timid / Modest
4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe (I honestly think that Latios will need to max its speed to take on other Latios)

- Draco Meteor
- Surf
- Psycho Shift
- Recover

Pretty self explanatory - use Surf as your primary attack, and if something you don't like comes in, smack them with a Draco Meteor. 2 Surfs get guaranteed 2HKOs on max HP Scizor and Tyranitar after SR, even with Timid:

Timid

Surf vs 252/0 Scizor: 47.4 - 55.8%
Draco Meteor vs 252/0 Scizor: 52.0 - 61.3%

Surf vs 252/0 Tyranitar: 44.6 - 52.5%
Draco Meteor vs 252/0 Tyranitar: 49.3 - 58.2%

Modest

Surf vs 252/0 Scizor: 51.7 - 61.0%
Draco Meteor vs 252/0 Scizor: 57.0 - 67.1%

Surf vs 252/0 Tyranitar: 49.0 - 57.9%
Draco Meteor vs 252/0 Tyranitar: 53.7 - 63.6%
not quite so hot:
Surf vs 252/216 Careful Tyranitar: 36.1 - 43.0%
Draco Meteor vs 252/216 Careful Tyranitar: 39.6 - 47.0%

And just one little thing - compare Latios' 80/80 physical defense with Porygon-Z's 85/70 and you get a fair idea of how well it will like taking Bullet Punches and Ice Shards =/.
 
Tekken7 said:
If Latios actually makes it to OU latias won't stay OU for long as her bro outclasses her, so will we have a suspect test for latias to UU or will it go straight to BL?
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.......Did I just read that correctly? Do you think that Latias is weaker than Donphan or E-vire?
 
Blame Game said:
Yeah, I'm not so sure what to think about this either for the moment. I was really under the impression that they'd both be tested at the same time, so this was pretty much a surprise for me.
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Read this post then read pretty much the entire page, as it outlines my reasoning for having decided why Stage 3 matters and why Stage 1 needs to test all Suspects in isolation.
 
Legacy Raider said:
And just one little thing - compare Latias' 80/80 physical defense with Porygon-Z's 85/70 and you get a fair idea of how well it will like taking Bullet Punches and Ice Shards =/.
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You either mean Latios, in which case you're right, or 80/90, in which case you're wrong.
 
To build on what I said earlier, my idea for a Latios set was:

Latios@Life Orb
Hasty (30 Def)
Levitate
EVs: 224 Atk/108 SpA/176 Spe
~Dragon Dance
~Draco Meteor
~Earthquake
~Outrage/Roost

A mixed dancer set, mainly for surprise value and maybe a little sweeping. The concept looks odd to start with, much like the ChainChomp of yore: rather than focusing on that incredible 130 Special Attack the idea is to focus on that mediocre Base 90 Attack. This is made possible for pretty much one reason: Dragon Dance, the infamous stat upper that turns things into sweepers.

I'll make it clear to some of the nay-sayers right now: you're right, Latios is NOT the best DDer and a pure DD set is almost completely outclassed by Gyarados and Salamence, the only advantage being higher Speed. However, Gyarados does not have Draco Meteor coming off of 323 Special Attack, and Salamence does not have 323 Special Attack without a +SpA nature and considerable EV investment which limits its sweeping capabilities.

Dragon Dance is a no-brainer on a Dragon Dance set and Latios reaches a wonderful 495 Speed after a boost, as well as 408 Attack if my calculations are correct. Earthquake does impressive damage to Tyranitar, Metagross and other Steel types that try to come in and wall Latios that aren't called Bronzong or Skarmory. It can 2HKO most of these threats before a boost with the given EVs, which is why I personally don't see the need for any more. Draco Meteor does huge damage coming off of a Life Orb boosted 323 Special Attack especially with STAB factored in, and it can 2HKO most Steels with a combination of Stealth Rock. Finally, I highly recommend you use Outrage in the last slot because it's the physical bite of the set but there is call for Roost; it will give Latios a LOT more survivability. However, even +1 Earthquake fails to 2HKO Blissey most of the time.

The magic of the set is really all in the EVs. 224 Attack EVs puts Latios at 272 Attack, enough to do 50% exactly to 404 HP Tyranitar. This means that any and all Tyranitar are 2HKO'd as long as they don't invest in Defence (and those that do can usually be 2HKO'd if the rocks are up). 176 Speed EVs with a +Speed nature puts Latios to a great 330 Speed, beating the base 100s which means that Latios can't be outsped by Scarfrachi, Scarf Flygon and the growing-in-popularity Scarfmence after a Dragon Dance. I recommend Hasty because it's easiest for this Latios to set up on Heatran and the like and Naive hinders his ability to do that, but you can use Naive for more balanced defences. Finally the 108 Special Attack EVs are leftover but by a very happy coincedence they garuntee a Draco Meteor OHKO on 4 HP Gyarados with Stealth Rock and Leftovers factored in (for example, he'll switch in on Earthquake or Dragon Dance thinking he walls you, then gets turned into fish soup). Stealth Rock is important to cement some important O/2HKOs and Wish support wouldn't hurt either.

Some damage calcs:

Earthquake vs 252 HP/0 Def Tyranitar: 50% – 58.66%
Earthquake vs 252 HP/0 Def Metagross: 48.08% - 56.59% (2HKO with Steatlh Rock)
Outrage vs 0 HP/252 Def Calm Blissey: 59.14% - 69.59%
Outrage vs 188 HP/252 Def Bold Vaporeon: 43.08% - 50%
Draco Meteor vs 4 HP/0 SpD Gyarados: 81.33% – 95.785 (OHKO with Stealth Rock)
Draco Meteor vs 252 HP/0 SpD Cresselia: 48.65% - 57.21%
Draco Meteor vs 252 HP/0 SpD Skarmory: 54.19% - 63.47%
Draco Meteor vs 4 HP/0 SpD Scizor: 57.45% - 67.73%
Draco Meteor vs 252 HP/88 SpD Hippowdon: 75% - 88.33%
Draco Meteor vs 188 HP/0 SpD Vaporeon: 62.95% - 74.11%
Draco Meteor vs 252 HP/0 SpD Suicune: 59.41% - 69.80%
Draco Meteor vs 252 HP/220 Def Bold Zapdos: 70.05% - 82.29%
Draco Meteor vs 252 Hp/220 SpD Calm Zapdos: 55.99% - 65.63%

And some boosted moves on those defensive Pokemon Latios doesn’t like, should he ever have to use the physical moves:

+1 Outrage vs 252 HP/252 Def Bold Cresselia: 42.12% - 49.32%
+1 Outrage vs 252 HP/252 Def Bold Suicune: 47.52% - 55.94%
+1 Outrage vs 252 HP/220 Def Bold Zapdos: 62.75% - 73.70%
+1 Earthquake vs 252 HP/0 Def Tyranitar: 75% - 87.38% (small chance to OHKO with Stealth Rock)
+1 Earthquake vs 252 HP/0 Def Metagross: 71.43% - 84.07%
+1 Earthquake vs 4 HP/0 Def Scizor: 57.80% - 67.73%

You could max Attack with a +Attack Nature, but this leaves you with lower Speed and a less owerful Draco Meteor.

Please offer constructive criticism etc
 
Kay said:
Well, I'm quitting OU heading to UU after this
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Alright, this attitude really pisses me off. You talk like it's already OU. As mentioned, it's on suspect, not OU. Not only that, but you have this attitude of "I don't like it so I'ma avoid it and bitch." Instead of that, trying playing the suspect ladder, qualifying to vote, and casting your vote accordingly. This isn't a popularity contest among pokemon, and Latios won't get OU for being popular, but for not meeting the uber criteria, which has yet to be seen. (sorry if I took your post out of context. That's not the only one like this)

There has been a lot of whining on the server about Latias making OU when they had zero to absolute minimum experience with her. Three quarter of them didn't even know Soul Dew is banned, just to give you a general idea of how uninformed and preemptive to bitching they are.

Jumpman16 said:
Read this post then read pretty much the entire page, as it outlines my reasoning for having decided why Stage 3 matters and why Stage 1 needs to test all Suspects in isolation.
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Thanks, that explains it and makes some sense of things. Still weird, but whatever.
 
Alright, this attitude really pisses me off. You talk like it's already OU. As mentioned, it's on suspect, not OU. Not only that, but you have this attitude of "I don't like it so I'ma avoid it and bitch." Instead of that, trying playing the suspect ladder, qualifying to vote, and casting your vote accordingly. This isn't a popularity contest among pokemon, and Latios won't get OU for being popular, but for not meeting the uber criteria, which has yet to be seen. (sorry if I took your post out of context. That's not the only one like this)
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Oh, it's not because Latios is on the suspect, but because Latias made it to OU. I'll admit, I didn't play the suspect metagame as much as others when Latias was playing, but that was because I thought the metagame with Latias was so goddamn boring after I played with it for a few days. I don't want to bitch endlessly about it on the OU ladder, so I'm going to pack up and start taking UU a bit more seriously than I have in the past. That's all there is to it.
 
Errm, just a doubt: Latias won't be in the Suspect Ladder (as Latios is the one being tested), but will she be in the Standard Ladder?
 
Yes, she was voted OU, and she'll be allowed there accordingly. She'll become legal as soon as the server is updated.

Aeolus' post in the sticky puts more confidence in me about the system (and Smogon, to an extent). I just hope it can weed out players that are consistent just to get a vote (while keeping a bias or not really caring). It seems like an easy way out that'll be abused to be honest. =/

Hm...I gotta stop overthinking. Chances are that I'm never happy with the way things are >_<
 
Arael said:
Errm, just a doubt: Latias won't be in the Suspect Ladder (as Latios is the one being tested), but will she be in the Standard Ladder?
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Yeah, I was wondering that as well. I thought the point of the test was to determine it's OU status. Now that it has been determined OU, it is a factor to consider in OU teams, and could have effects on how a suspect is treated. Why not allow it if it's considered OU? It's suspect test is over, it passed.
 
Just because the test is over doesn't move her from the suspect list. Latias is still a suspect, just like Shaymin-S (despite his test being done). I'll just quote from a bit up the page.

Jumpman16 said:
Read this post then read pretty much the entire page, as it outlines my reasoning for having decided why Stage 3 matters and why Stage 1 needs to test all Suspects in isolation.
Click to expand...
 
HP Fire isn't needed to 2HKO the Steels that switch in on Latias (Scizor, Metagross). Plus, using Hidden Power on Choice users is bad news.
 
Yo RaikouLover, you never got around to posting the Memento set for Latios?

name: Dual Memento (I am not good with names)
move 1: Reflect
move 2: Light Screen
move 3: Memento
move 4: Recover
item: Light Clay
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 6 Def / 252 Spe

This has been the set some people have been complaining about (the main reason they want him uber), hope this won't cause as much of a problem.
 
I haven't heard any complaints yet about that set, only about how "omfg powerful" he is (note that most of these complainers don't even realize that Soul Dew is banned -_-).

While that set does have a good outlook, I don't know how it can make him (alone) uber and not anything else that can do it.
 
Clearly you weren't around for the Dual Screen Deoxys-E craze.... those Screen ---> Gliscor ---> Metagross teams were disguistingly powerful and could be abused by everyone. Wdro made his team, then dozens of copiers had the same success with it because it was just like clockwork. I think it satisfied the "support characteristic" for uber.

Anyway, Latios has good resistances, decent defenses, same great speed, levitate... and the game-changer... Momento. Uxie can run the same set, but lacks recovery... so the ability to come in multiple times and simply screen away and recover off any health, or just sacrifice latios for a psuedo +6 defenses for the next pokemon may make this rough to handle. I definately will be abusing this idea :-D.
 
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