np: UU - A New Beginning

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@Sand v. Hail-- what the hell? We are not obligated to make sand = hail at all. Do you see us doing anything about Sand's dominance of OU? There's no reason why the weather system has to be anything-- unless we deem something broken.

For a lot of reasons, I don't consider Walrein the main issue with hail teams. It's predictable, it gives the enemy plenty of opportunities to use counter measures, and it can't do jack if there's no poison up (fairly likely with roserade, nidoqueen, drapion and others running around), it's susceptible to encore, taunt, and phaze since practically none of them seem to carry their own roar, and hail teams must always be weary of letting something like Raikou or a Sub-Puncher use Walrein for set-up bait. There's more, but I'm just saying that while hail can be a very annoying force to deal with, Walrein is hardly the only problem.
 
I'm just posting to say that the Roosting Staraptor is not horrible. It's the best set that he has because the drop in power from Choice Band to Life Orb is negligable and doesn't factor in to ANY 1/2HKOs and allows for an aid to prediction as well as increased survivability. Anyone who says that it's not a set worth using has obviously never faced it, or used it.
 
Thing is Walrien is at what.. 65 Base speed? Most walls that carry Roar are going to beat out by Walrien's Roar. So Roar is a moot point. Why discuss Walrien? Simply remove Perma-Hail and he is no longer an issue. Common Taunt users are beat by Blizzard/ Surf. Encore with who? Vigoroth? Jumpluff? Raichu? there are few Encore users and even less viable ones to take on Hail teams. Exception being... Walrien and Clefable.
 
Encore isn't the only way to take on Walrein. It's just one of many viable ways already mentioned, I don't see your point.
 
Encore is an invalid strategy aside from Clefable.

This discussion about Abomasnow should really be over, there are simply no facts that have been brought up, aside from people saying "use Clefable", "use Hariyama" "Use Stall". Walrein takes out alot of pokemon with little effort, being unable to beat ANY pokemon without leftovers is enough to warrant a ban by itself.


Lets use this as an example since it was brought up. Gyarados, requires you to have ONE Electric Attack or Rock Attack from a Choice Scarfer, or defensive Pokemon. Hail, requires you to use Clefable, Hariyama and Entei or some other fire type with Leftovers. The difference is clearly, one you have to completely build your team around countering, otherwise gimping it. And one you barely need to Change anything, as most STalls carry Tentacruel or Vaporeon with HP electric, or have Kingdra, Salamence or a Scarfer. Even Celebi with thunder wave counters that. If this difference is not clear, then i suggest you stop arguing about this anyway.

We should really be moving on to another Topic, such as Gallade/Raikou/Shaymin or whatever else people want to ban.
 
Caelum said:
Encore isn't the only way to take on Walrein. It's just one of many viable ways already mentioned, I don't see your point.
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I'm not sure to what post you are stating. I just made my comment based over what I glanced. I think the list of ways to deal with Stallrein was...

Taunt
Roar/ Whirlwind
Encore
Snatch(?) Lol right..


But.. lets see who can do this to effectively...

Taunt-

Aggron
Glaile
Hypno
Mismagious
Muk
Sableye
Skuntank
Chimecho
Umbreon

Roar/ Whirlwind-

Blastoise
Feraligator
Glaceon
Lapras
Skuntank
Walrien
Hariyama

Encore-

Azumerril
Clefable
Dewgong
Lopunny

Snatch-

Chimecho
Clefable- I do want to try this. Snatch Calm Minds, Subs, Etc.. heh.
Gardivoir- Trace + Snatch against Walrien.. lol
Grumpig
Kecleon
Skuntank
Umbreon

Quite a list. I suppose. However, Abomasnow is the problem not Walrien.
 
Exclamation Point said:
Thing is Walrien is at what.. 65 Base speed? Most walls that carry Roar are going to beat out by Walrien's Roar. So Roar is a moot point. Why discuss Walrien? Simply remove Perma-Hail and he is no longer an issue. Common Taunt users are beat by Blizzard/ Surf. Encore with who? Vigoroth? Jumpluff? Raichu? there are few Encore users and even less viable ones to take on Hail teams. Exception being... Walrien and Clefable.
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If it carries Roar, then it misses on Toxic, which is quite valuable with the abundance of grounded poisons running around. If it carries both Roar and Toxic, it carries no attacks and is utter Taunt bait. If common Taunt users are having trouble, maybe find new ones. Walrein's moveset isn't Sub/Protect/Surf/Blizzard/Roar/Toxic. It can't cover everything.

Personally I almost never see Roar Walrein, anyway.

HeYsUp said:
Encore is an invalid strategy aside from Clefable.

This discussion about Abomasnow should really be over, there are simply no facts that have been brought up, aside from people saying "use Clefable", "use Hariyama" "Use Stall". Walrein takes out alot of pokemon with little effort, being unable to beat ANY pokemon without leftovers is enough to warrant a ban by itself.

We should really be moving on to another Topic, such as Gallade/Raikou/Shaymin or whatever else people want to ban.
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Jumpluff rocks any Walrein who takes Surf over Blizzard. Just FYI.

Why do you insist that something needs a direct counter? Not everything has a counter. Salamence has few, if any, real counters. Lucario is in the same boat. Yet they are clearly not uber, because they can be worked around. Pokemon only get 4 moveslots. They can't cover everything. It's up to you to plan ahead for threats and take advantage of what they chose not to cover. If you cannot find a way outside of a few specific Pokemon, then readjust your game plan. Sometimes a threat requires you to think a bit outside of a perfect counter. Think about what checks a Pokemon rather than outright destroying it.

As for moving on, feel free to bring up a point to discuss. Those have all been discussed, and Hail is considered a pressing issue, which is why it keeps coming up.
 
May I suggest DD Lapras against Stallrein? immune to hail, takes next to no damage from either of Walrein's STAB moves with a quad resistance to the feared 100% accuracy Blizzard and with a teammate having used Safeguard, the only way Stallrein could feasibly do anything about Lapras would be if it was carrying Roar. That, or you could choose not to bother and just use Perish Song to get it out, although Stallrein is a free setup for DD Lapras if Stallrein doesn't have Roar and Lapras is protected from Toxic by Safeguard or Stallrein doesn't have Toxic, as I've already pointed out. Pure setup fodder.

Magmortar is also a rather useful Pokemon to have against Hail teams. Cross Chop hits Stallrein while Flamethrower takes care of the rest. With a Life Orb/Leftovers to negate Hail your opponent won't be able to do much about him. Baton Pass an Agility with Gorebyss and max out Magmortar's offensive stats. You could also BP Aqua Ring which will help with negating Hail damage too.
 
Exclamation Point said:
I'm not sure to what post you are stating. I just made my comment based over what I glanced. I think the list of ways to deal with Stallrein was...

Taunt
Roar/ Whirlwind
Encore
Snatch(?) Lol right..


But.. lets see who can do this to effectively...

Taunt-

Aggron
Glaile
Hypno
Mismagious
Muk
Sableye
Skuntank
Chimecho
Umbreon
nidoqueen
nidoking
drapion
electrode
floatzel
froslass
houndoom
jynx
Mr.Mime
Persian
Probopass
Weezing


 Roar/ Whirlwind-

Blastoise
Feraligator
Glaceon
Lapras
Skuntank
Walrien
Hariyama
drapion
venusaur ( Blizard does 50.00% - 58.79%)


Encore-

Azumerril
Clefable
Dewgong
Lopunny
Jumpluff (come in on protect or sub)
quagsire
shuckle
Mr.Mime
Snatch-

Chimecho
Clefable- I do want to try this. Snatch Calm Minds, Subs, Etc.. heh.
Gardivoir- Trace + Snatch against Walrien.. lol
Grumpig
Kecleon
Skuntank
Umbreon

Quite a list. I suppose. However, Abomasnow is the problem not Walrien.
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And that's not even including Golduck, weather changers, double kickers, and triple kick hitmontop (then there's the small chance that crobat has of surviving a blizzard).
 
@Erazor, Registeel fails against Hail, because its set up bait for Walrein


It puzzles me why hardly anybody uses Rest on Registeel. Surf wailrein with no s.atk evs and neutral nature does like 16% or less to a bulky Registeel. If you use Registeel without Rest and you want to deal with wailrein better then I strongly suggest use rest on registeel. Not only is the rest set an insanely more viable option. It will also help alot more then the T-wave SR set. Just make him a curse tank/sweeper. Registeel can outstall Hailrein.

Anyway, im tired of this bantering back and forth about Abomasnow and Wailrein. Please change the subject. There have been countless viable options posted here for dealing with Hail-Stall. Far more then HeYsUp would have you beleive.
 
the_artic_one said:
And that's not even including Golduck, weather changers, double kickers, and triple kick hitmontop (then there's the small chance that crobat has of surviving a blizzard).
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Thanks for the edited list. However, I've used Golduck and he is Ok at best, weather changes makes sense for a weather teams, Double Kick? Lol, theres better ways than this garbage, triple kick's damage is aweful and forces you to use technicain, crobat has a CHANCE of surviving Blizzard for what suicidal taunt?

Another thing, with the list I posted were pokemon who you don't have to necessisarly risk anything but switching in. More than half the pokemon you listed will/ can be taken down with Blizzard/ Surf. And thats if its running the Stallset. Heck, if it ran Blizzard/ Surf/ Substitute/ Toxic give it some special attack investment and it could wreck stuff.

Suicidal Taunts/ Encores in most cases is not worth it.

Edit:

Anyone find a "unique" sweeper as of late? While not unique my Alteria has been doing me well ^^
 
Taunt-

Aggron
Glaile
Hypno
Mismagious
Muk
Sableye
Skuntank
Chimecho
Umbreon
nidoqueen
nidoking
drapion
electrode
floatzel
froslass
houndoom
jynx
Mr.Mime
Persian
Probopass
Weezing
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Gardevoir / Gallade get access to Taunt too! Speaking of ...an interesting theorymon thought experiment:

Gardevoir @ Leftovers
Ability: Trace

~Psychic
~Substitute
~Taunt
~Protect

Come in on Walrein and outstall Hail stall? Much like Walrein except that it is faster and has Taunt to shut down Encorers and PHazers. Aside from the odd random Sneasel or Drapion, not much on Hail teams could stand up to it, although Taunt + Destiny Bond Froslass would be annoying.

Not that I'd ever use it as I've never had any problems with Hail stall, but still, quite an amusing extra option if I dare say so.
 
Exclamation Point said:
Taunt
Roar/ Whirlwind
Encore


But.. lets see who can do this to effectively...

Taunt-

Mismagious
Umbreon

Roar/ Whirlwind-

Blastoise
Feraligator
Glaceon
Walrien(.....)
Hariyama

Encore-

Clefable
Lopunny

Snatch-

GIMMICK.
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Editted the list down to have the pokemon remaining be either:
a) Viable in the current metagame outside of countering Walrein
b) Taunters have to be faster, or Bulky/Toxic Immune.

That list is patheticly small for a Balanced Metagame.


Im starting a new Topic here.

Lets talk about the amount, and how effective a wall is in the UU metagame.

There are some walls that are terribly hard to get through, namely Registeel. Registeel can be paired with Slowbro, who can effectively wall everything minus Special Ground Attacks from Nidoking.

Another great wall pairing includes Crobat lead, with Steelix/Milotic. They cover everything.

The list goes on, with Chansey+Slowbro, and the like.

Has anyone found the weakness to the common Wall pairings? Because i think i have due to me seeing a Registeel, Steelix, Chansey, Milotic or Slowbro on every team.
 
Most of all that list is pretty situational. And your list has taken out alot of potential pokemon. I think Azumarril can encore effectivly against Hail.

As for the wall combos. I really don't have a problem with ANY of that shit ergo I use a Hail team ; )

EDIT: Abomasnow murders all of those things basically barring Steelix and Crobat. And Blizzard is almost always a 2KO on Steelix and Aboma needs lots of defensive EVs to survive BB from Crobat returning with a Blizzard OHKO.
 
Walls are pretty damn good in nUU if you aren't packing some pokemon that can really demolish them, and almost always take some prediction to get through them. Stuff like CB Blaziken, LO Nidoking, and others (mostly fire types T_T), do a fairly decent job.

I especially like Nidoking with BoltBeam/Earth Power/Superpower because he 2hkoes every wall in UU except for Uxie, while at the same time outspeeding quite a bit of the metagame.
 
chenman333 said:
I especially like Nidoking with BoltBeam/Earth Power/Superpower because he 2hkoes every wall in UU except for Uxie, while at the same time outspeeding quite a bit of the metagame.
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"F@*$! Nidoking!" I say this everytime I see one...

God I do hate playing against these. They always seem to slip in at the right time and demolish my teams...

Cool to see Nidoking getting some action.
 
Crobat is listed as being a UU pokemon but all of his listed counters are OU. Is this a mistake? Or is he in the same boat as Abomnasnow where BL wasn't jus a Faux tier for him like it was for quite a few others? I'm also pretty sure that there are a bunch of UU pokemon with only OU sets and counters listed. Sorry if this is a useless post but I was just curious and although I dont feel it warrants a post I thought I should bring it up. ( since there was an update on the main page saying "Crobat was revamped" )
 
Since all the previously-BL pokemon were not allowed in UU play before, none of the analyses for prev-BL pokemon have been updated with UU counters yet. We're going to wait until the metagame stabilises a bit and we get some statistics before we start adding to any analyses ^_^
 
Abomasnow is relatively easy to switch into with Registeel, especially with Roserade as my lead. (on my original team).

I think the BEST wallbreaker hands down is Blaziken, i have the analysis for it done already so as soon as its allowed :D.
 
Blaziken is indeed a great wall breaker, both CB and LO. Nidoking does have a SR resist and absorbs toxic spikes though, which is great for my team.

And SD Gallade should be mentioned for his sheer power. Because he rapes basically everything except for really fast pokemon that are immune or resist ghost. Which is basically everything except Staraptor or Tauros (not sure if Tauros can 1hko though).
 
Well, I hate to bring attention to it, but Sub-Punch +Encore Azumarril resists ice and can obviously set up its own sub and hurt hail teams/walrein a lot.

With 100/80/80 defenses, great typing (pure water = win) and Huge Power, it's also far from "gimmicky" outside of fighting walrein.

I'll also be very interested to see how many Walrein are actually running roar when the stats come out, because I have yet to see a "true" stallrein (one with roar as per DragonTamer's original design) yet.
 
ChouToshio said:
Well, I hate to bring attention to it, but Sub-Punch +Encore Azumarril resists ice and can obviously set up its own sub and hurt hail teams/walrein a lot.

With 100/80/80 defenses, great typing (pure water = win) and Huge Power, it's also far from "gimmicky" outside of fighting walrein.
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Vouching for Azumassassin!
 
I came back from school to see a huge amount of responses :)

Anyways, I talked to one of my non-Smogon friends (he uses TR like me) and his opinion of Abomanasnow was that it should be BL. Let's look at his set.

Abomanasnow w/Leftovers
I don't know the EVs
-Blizzard
-Leech Seed
-Toxic
-Grass Whistle (He plays in PBR where there's no sleeping clause) This can be exchanged for protect.

Anyways, this set is annoying. Leech Seed, Toxic, and then just repetitively Protect/Blizzard alternate. You gain upwards 12%, they lose 18%+ depending on toxic. Steels can be delt with by a nice Blaziken (though since he uses TR, like me, he uses Marowak)

Now, if you have the Wallerin set on top of this, things are going to get very annoying indeed. Even if you manage to encore, your going to be losing lots and lots of health per turn.

Also, Abomanasnow does not even care about Azumarill whatsoever.
 
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